BA - 8th Edition Review: Strigoi

[Disciple of Nagash]

What Strigoi have the capability to be is not necessarily what we are portraying here. What we are portraying is what they are like in battle, and whilst they may have other (possibly good) aspects outside of battle, in battle it is quite clear they reply on some key aspects:

• Strength - their main gift from their progenitor who was said be massively strong
• Innate resilience
• Primal fury and bloodlust to overwhelm their opponents
• Speed

The Strigoi army is more about a faster moving , heavier hitting force than any of the other bloodlines.

Now in regards to the powers, one thing I will say is that they should give more than normally would be costed for. There is little point comparing them to magic items etc

The reason because of this is because the Strigoi loose massively in other areas compared to to others. The lack of key magic items like HoC, BoA and SoD, the fact they cannot do anything to boost their magic offense, and especially defense.

They will have much harder time compared to the other vampires in keeping their troops around and augmenting their abilities.

Thus to balance out we have to focus the vampire more at what he is good at, and that is combat. They should be raw killing machines, not designed for challenges but more ploughing through troops. Against a kitted up Blood Dragon Lord in a challenge, a kitted up Strigoi would find it difficult which is how it should be.

But for tearing through enemy fodder, moving around fast like a hellish monster the Strigoi should have the edge, and that is what we are trying to get here.

In regards to the current rules, let me have another look and I will post my thoughts.

 

[Grish]

Ok. Let's focus on the army feeling this way.

So far, for fast units, we have:
Bats
Wolves
Varghulf
Vampires

Bats are decent anti-warmachines. Combined with a vampire, they could take out small support units as well.
Wolves... too hard to raise, too fragile. Could be used as a delivery system, but a delivery for what
Varghulf: These will be a staple with their Thunderstomp.
Vampires. Other hard hitting.

For these guys to win, they'll need to take on the big blocks of infantry that is 8th edition. Ghouls are good for this, but don't want to get into the regular VC feel of grind away. Want to capture the essence of a mobile force. Hard to do with units that do not flee, so perhaps introduce living units into this army? Strigoi Cav?

I think the regular Strigoi are weak. 6pts for them, or 8 for ghouls. I know what I'd take (and it fulfills my core selection). I would tone them down, drop the dual hand weapons. Why do all strigoi units use 2x HW anyways? Is it in some fluff? I'd make them configurable, like a peasant infantry. Stubborn has lost some of its juice this edition, and ghouls can be reraised.

As it stands, I think most lists are going to have a bunch of varghulfs, bats, and vampires, with ghouls as core. I think some bait and flee tactics might be good here, if you're already using human units.

I think the vmapire powers take a back seat to the overall feel of the army you're playing.

 

[Montesque]

I agree with the posited change from the previous discussions of moving the Ghoul court to Special. To compensate, we could possibly make it so that wolves and other critters count, but that normal or skirmishy ghouls count as mainstay units, i.e. the number of critter units is limited to the number of ghouls or less.

I know that the Von Carsteins are the most associated with critter units, but the Strigoi seem like they're the second most likely to use them, and this seems to strike a fairly good balance.

Strigoi cavalry seems like a bad idea to me, just because having a living cavalry unit almost makes the Strigoi into a 1/2 living 1/2 undead army, which doesn't seem like something ANY VC army should be. The living beings are pretty much strictly a novelty unit, which can provide some interesting tactical options, but not be the key cog around which the army spins.

And DoN made some good points, IMO, for us to remember about the characters.

Looking forward to feedback from everybody

 

[Grish]

From what I understand, Strigoi don't really seem to be the type to even have an army. And if they did, their magic doesn't seem potent enough to keep a large mass of moving undead.

Peasant/ill equipped Rank and file as well as fast cavalry outriders seem to fit to me. No Black Knights or anything, and maybe even ditch the Grave Guard; do Strigoi employ Grave Guard?

Sorry, I don't have any background knowledge but trying to capture a unique feel.

I think the Strigany are exactly that, a novelty unit and not anything someone would take in a competitive list.

The beauty of the bloodline armies is we can determine units and as editions change, tweak the costs so all units remain viable options (unlike what GW is doing).

I see Strigoi as being outcasts, but still having a cult following. Anger is a secondary emotion; there must be a primary.

 

[Grish]

Did some thinking at night.

I was thinking of what could be done to make them feel like a unique army.

Fast, hard hitting, harrassing. To do that, you'd need to limit the plodding big blocks of ghouls and graveguard that are so very effective. Even without Helm of Command, Staff of Damnation and the Hoff banner, big blocks are still extremely effective.

I think to get a unique feel, you'd have to drop the Grave Guard entirely for 8th, or make them an extra couple points more expensive (15 maybe). Otherwise, just shifting them to rare would only limit someone that wants Grave Guard to be more than 25% of their army, or that wanted to combine it with Wraiths. Meh. People would still take 30 to be effective, with great weapons.

Having units of fast cav I think could really help, along with scouting and skirmishing ghouls. (Scouting ghouls would be skirmishing ghouls as well, obviously).

I don't know what we could do to limit the plodding rank and file of ghouls that would be so effective.

The reason because of this is because the Strigoi loose massively in other areas compared to to others. The lack of key magic items like HoC, BoA and SoD, the fact they cannot do anything to boost their magic offense, and especially defense.

BoA is garbage this edition. HoC is gold, SoD is awesome with Grave Guard, or buffed up units. With Ghouls, skeletons and zombies not buffed up, its not as effective. I think Strigoi magic would be decently strong.

How do you feel about capturing the 'essence' of the army? I don't want to redo a bunch of work people have already done, so stop me if you're happy with the list. I personally think Fast Cav for bait and flee tactics, some shooting, skirmishing and scouting will give this army a very unique feel. However, Grave Guard anvils are the best in the game (or one of the best) so you should dissuade this unit by making it more costly. Ghouls are also exceptional infantry, and Rank and file ghouls will probably perform better than skirmishing ghouls, so I would also push the skirmish and dissuade the RnF somehow.

 

[Sweeney Todd]

I agree to some extent with Grish. Grave Guard can and should be completely ditched for the 8ed Strigoi list. I swore off them even in my normal VC list, so I certainly won't miss them . We should also reintroduce Ghoulkin to this list to emphasize on a faster than usual force instead of limiting RnF ghouls which would just be a nerf.

Something a fellow WHFB player said to me on Facebook also gave me an idea. An alternative for Blood Rage is for it to give the vampire and all other friendly units within 6'' (or 12'') Frenzy. It will need to go up in price, of course, but it will also help to emphasize the ideal of the Strigoi being more hard-hitting.

As for Strigany calvary, I'm not sure if DoN wants his pikeys on horses. I'm not very keen on such a unit though, as I don't want to put too much emphasis on the living in an army of undead.

 

[Grish]

Ok, so getting some ideas from the over view thread. I'll use this forum as a place to bat around (HA!) ideas.


Idea 1: Strigoi seem to not take the fight to their opponents. Perhaps a "fight to escape" power? If a Strigoi vampire wins combat, then can exit combat (not the unit, just them).

Idea 2: A 'cornered' power. Any animal, when cornered, fights like a madman. Ideas:
- in challenges, gains Infinite Hatred
- gains infinite hatred against any VC/Empire army
- power that allows their unit to share their feelings (granting hatred to unit, or perhaps having their unit not being penalized for being flanked)

 

[Montesque]

Idea 2:I like the Hatred being given to the unit, though perhaps that should be a bloodline power, rather than automatic. Need to think more on the other parts, but I think they should either be given automatic infinite hatred against everyone or no one, because EVERYONE hates the Strigoi, not just the vamps and the Empire.

Are you recommending something akin to the Wood Elf Hawkriders' Hit and Run special rule for the Strigoi? I could see that working, sort of, but only if the Strigoi isn't in a unit.

In regards to Grave Guard, I both agree and disagree. On the one hand, obviously they don't fit the theme as well as some other units, but on the other, I think it's not quite right to excise them altogether, because the Strigoi are still capable of using a good amount of magic. Perhaps a 0-1 limit, or limiting the unit size to 20 would work?

Oh, and Grish, if you haven't already, I'd highly recommend going back and checking the original discussions about the Strigoi bloodline in the archive section of the bloodlines project. Gives you some good ideas on why they did what they did initially.

 

[Grish]

Done Monte, for Strigoi only.

One thing I noticed was there wasn't much discussion about a 'feel' to the army which I believe is key. I think it's established for this army. Also, IMO, the best way to establish powers would be to discuss what 'feel' or effect you want, then discuss ways to reach that goal.

I saw Dance's comments about having options, but IMO, people are too easily swayed by the best choices. We should strive to have effective choices that are very close to the best choice. I think for Grave Guard the best suggestion would be to just make them more expensive. Take them if you want, but it doesn't come as easily to them. It would encourage a playstyle that fits the idea of them better. Having a max size of 15-20 would definitely help as well. More a support role, then a massive unit that can whoop ass. Also, without the Helm and the Banner, their effectiveness declines (although its still damn good).

One thing I saw was Bishops suggestion of a way to make their attacks in close combat magical. Great idea. Their army lacks magical attacks; no character has it, Grave Guard should be (to me obviously) uncommon in such armies. Hardly leaves any source of magical attacks.

What about a cannibalistic power? Ideas:

1) Strigoi regains a lost wound whenever:
1.1) a challenge is won?
1.2) a unit is broken in combat (max 1/rnd); if this is chosen, cannot pursue perhaps?
Possible gaining of terror from this? (Pretty damn scary when someone is eaten alive)
Possibly gaining PD ala Mannfred? I know in sacrifices in some cultures, there is an idea that 'magic' is released.

Strength powers:
Possibly disabling weapons/armour from sheer strength and breaking them/disarming them?
Crushing blows dealing multiple wounds, or doubling wounds?
"Throw shit" power that could be a ranged attack, like a S2, small template stone thrower?

have more ideas but gotta run for lunch. I'll post some more later this week.

Give the thumbs up to concepts/ideas you like, trash the ones you don't. Don't trash the implementation; we can always tweak that.

Edit: Masterspark just got in contact with me to say that this is the best idea ever. Even better than the ideas those German scientists are coming up with to cure Aids. He said this is much better, and governments should dump funding into it. Appreciate the support! Note that he wanted to add "Throw shit down" as well, as a challenge booster, but frankly, that's just too much.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

OK, one thing that I do want to state before we move too much further on is that we have to respect the previous work put in on some level. It is not fair to take the list and totally re-write after so much effort was put in previously, also bearing in mind that previous work was voted through by majority vote.

Saying that, in this instance, this army was shown to be quite poor in some areas when it came to testing, hence I think it will be ok to go over as much as is being discussed.

Now onto what has been discussed.

I like the suggestions about altering the synergy in this army, to make it work faster and more offensive rather than attrition. It goes with the Strigoi feel.

However one thing that I do want to keep, and I think should be kept as it feels Strigoi to me, is the powerhouse nature of the Strigoi. Unlike the vampires of the other armies, the lead by words, magic powers etc, they lead by being the biggest, meanest and strongest. Their legacy from their master is also that of strength.

So here is what I would suggest (this is a combination of the ideas from previous posts).

Keep the altered stats for the Strigoi - they need them to survive. Possibly they could have killing blow innately for their massive strength?
Create a mixture of powers - ones to enhance the Strigoi ( I want keep Ancient Beast and Varghkin - versions we agree on at any rate), and then others to boost the army around them. Ghoulkin I agree with, and also also like the frenzy if in a radius idea.

Army List
I agree with dropping the GG BUT (and this is important), if we drop them we are leaving a massive hole power wise. Hence I think this will justify the earlier powers to boost up the Strigoi.

To make the army faster introduce a new rule, something along the lines of:

Free Will
The Ghouls that follow the Strigoi do so of their own free will, believing in their mighty champion. Thus as their minds are free of the vampires sway, they will react as their instincts dictate, instincts which even the Stirgoi have come to respect
Ghouls in the Strigoi army may choose flee as charge reaction, even if there is a Strigoi vampire in the unit. (might need to build on it)

Fast Cav - Don't like the Strigany idea. Fast cav I am ok with, just would prefer it to be undead. I would suggest we create a brand new unit that has some Ghoul connection, to using the above rule it can bait and flee.

Magic - here we have a problem. They really lack magic defense, even more so than Blood Dragons who are meant to the worst in magic. Perhaps a power, hating the fact that magic was used to hunt them down. Make it potent, but the cost doesn't need to be that high considering that lack in the army as a well.

Everyone having magic attacks.......don't agree on this. I just can't see the reasoning fluff wise, why would they all have magic attacks? As above, maybe some power can be created for this, but I don't think it should be an army wide thing.

Finally, if we can agree in the outlines, I would like to follow the previous process of discussing the powers first, and then when completed discussing the army options. I have found is clearer and faster that way.

Thoughts?

 

[Onikaigo]

And my thoughts in a lighter blue, so DoN doesn't hurt his eyes.

Army List
I agree with dropping the GG BUT (and this is important), if we drop them we are leaving a massive hole power wise. Hence I think this will justify the earlier powers to boost up the Strigoi.

To make the army faster introduce a new rule, something along the lines of:

Free Will
The Ghouls that follow the Strigoi do so of their own free will, believing in their mighty champion. Thus as their minds are free of the vampires sway, they will react as their instincts dictate, instincts which even the Stirgoi have come to respect
Ghouls in the Strigoi army may choose flee as charge reaction, even if there is a Strigoi vampire in the unit. (might need to build on it)


I somewhat see this as filling the void, but it's not enough. Grave Guard, simply put, are our heavy hitters. I understand that Ghouls are much more offensive than my usual skeleton builds, and coupled with our Strigoi brethren will be simply beastly, but taking out grave Guard leaves a gaping hole that needs to be filled, not patched. I suggest a new unit for Grave guard, something distinctly Strigoi, but to fill the 'Elite Infantry' slot that the Grave Guard held.

Fast Cav - Don't like the Strigany idea. Fast cav I am ok with, just would prefer it to be undead. I would suggest we create a brand new unit that has some Ghoul connection, to using the above rule it can bait and flee.

I like the idea of Fast Cavalry, especially coupled with the 'Flee' rule that you mentioned, DoN. It would give this army a 'Living' feel, yet incorporate the undead stats; which to me is perfect. Strigoi are feral, brutal, and that would represent that. So, maybe, possibly, create two new units to fill the 'Power void' left by removing the Grave Guard?

Magic - here we have a problem. They really lack magic defense, even more so than Blood Dragons who are meant to the worst in magic. Perhaps a power, hating the fact that magic was used to hunt them down. Make it potent, but the cost doesn't need to be that high considering that lack in the army as a well.


How better to combat magic than to cause more miscasts? As seen in my Ogre lists, the ability to make your opponent hesitate in the magic phase, to really, really fear the miscast table is to make it more prevalent. Make any spell that targets a Strigoi themed unit (Ghouls, new units we make) or a Strigoi Vampire miscast on a 1,1, as well as Miscast IF on a 6,6. Or make it a little more insiduous, and completely take away the IF from your opponent, and make a 6,6 only a miscast with IF happening only on a triple 6, or not at all.

Everyone having magic attacks.......don't agree on this. I just can't see the reasoning fluff wise, why would they all have magic attacks? As above, maybe some power can be created for this, but I don't think it should be an army wide thing.

I don't like this either. Things like Wraiths, other ethereal (Are there any, even?) etc are supposed to be frustrating as hell for Strigoi. It's their anathema. I think a complete lack of magic attacks for the entire army will work out just fine.


Finally, if we can agree in the outlines, I would like to follow the previous process of discussing the powers first, and then when completed discussing the army options. I have found is clearer and faster that way.

Well, here's my two cents. I'll try to be more involved in this, and especially the Necrarch discussion when it pops up. Fresh ideas can really stimulate things once they begin to stalemate (As they were starting to)

And another thought on the Magic: How about, to continue on my Miscast concept, the ability to manipulate miscast rolls by 1 either direction as an army wide rule? With an ability like that, coupled with 'Purchased' abilities like the 'Miscast on 1,1 + 6,6's' would really make Magister lords think twice.

 

[Bishop]

Yeah, I agree that this list will probably need quite a bit more work.

I do agree with most of the concepts present above, in theory.

Powers/Items that cause extra miscasts can/are pretty brutal. Just look at things like the Ring of Hotek to see those effects. Maybe some ability like the Ring of Hotek for Strigoi Lords. And a lesser version for Heroes.

 

[Grish]

Not sure at this point if they need it... if you're fast and mobile, that alone can help.

Maybe MR on the Lord? Another possible 'resilience' option?

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Right, so before we get down to designing something definite I think we can all agree on:

New fleeing rule
Two new units: One for fast cav, one heavy hitters to replace the loss of GG.
Doing something to help their magic defence - I propose a power, not something intrinsic. At least if the player has the option then its their choice as to whether they want to risk it or not.

So with those points in mind, let's start at the top. Stats and powers first.

Stats Changes (All changes to the basic options)

All Strigoi vampires have the following:
+1 attack
+1 wound
5+ ward save
Hatred (against all foes)
May not take any mundane / magical equipment
May not take mounts of any kind
May take an extra 50% points on powers - 75pts vamp, 150pts Lord
Do not have the option to take BSB (just thought of that - comments)

Powers
Firstly we need to decide on how many powers we are going to have in total? The other lines have 8 powers to choose from. I would suggest giving the Strigoi 12.

In regards to the powers themselves, looking at the old and the current here is what I think we should be working from:

1)Ancient Beast of Strigoi
As this is being debated I won't bother posting rules, we can discuss it. However as per the other lines it needs to be their strongest power.

2)Varghkin
Again, the concept behind this power is great, personally I like the rules I thought up earlier, however again it can be discussed.

3)Massive Monstrosity : 45pts
As time pass the Strigoi vampire grow tougher and tougher and merely shrug off wounds which would cripple or even kill lesser beings.
+1 Toughness

4)Bat form : 30pts
Its wicked diet have created a bond with the flying creatures of the night.
Fly. One vampire in the army with this power may join a unit of fell bats.

5)Fear of the Hunter - 25pts
Just the smell of one these bestial vampire is enough to send horses or steeds into a fearful retreat.
The vampire counts as causing terror in any cavalry, monster, chariot or swarm units. Such is the fear the affected units must take the relevant Fear and Terror tests at -1Ld, and it still applies if the unit is ItP.

6)Infinite hatred; As current book. 15pts (lower cost than VC book as Strigois have Hatred as standard)
Within the bitter souls of Strigoi vampires burns a great anger towards the living and the dead which never will be extinguished.

7)Iron Sinews : 15pts
The strength of the Strigoi vampires is goes beyond even that of the other lords of the night.
+ 1 Strength

8)Scarred Hide 20pts
The many conflicts which the Strigoi has endured have hardened its skin until it is surprisingly resistant to damage
Confers 4+armour save (based off 5+ shield, cost and armour bonus both increased)

9)Predator's instincts 25 pts:
The Strigoi's bestial nature allows it to swiftly and fatally identify the weak points of its chosen prey
Confers Killing Blow.

10)Swift Shadow 10pts:
Striking from darkness, a Strigoi vampire races towards its foe to rend it limb from limb with its bare claws:
Vampire has Mv 9


Looking at the existing ones, we obviously need to discuss Ancient Beast and Varghkin. As per previous comments I suggest Batform is changed slightly, so more vampires can take it, however a unit of Fellbats can only have one vampire join it, avoid creating flying deathstars.

Also I would personally up the power level of Predator's Instincts and change it to Heroic KB - give the Strigoi a chance against monsters.

As for the last two slots - one should be closed for Blood Rage, I like the previous suggestion of it having a aura like effect causing Frenzy etc.

For the last power. I suggest an option for magical defense

Hatred of the Arcane - 55pts
Years of being tracked and assaulted by magic has manifested in this vampire an aura deadly to those who wield the winds of magic. Such is the intensity that it can even disrupt those nearby of magical creation
The vampire counts as having MR (3) and magical attacks. In addition once per game he can focus the aura, he must declare this at the start of the enemies magic phase, for the remainder of that phase any doubles will result in a miscast, although only a double 6 will cause Irresistible Force.

Thoughts?

 

[Count Lasombra]

Garghouls would make awesome Strigoi fast cav.I'd make'em kinda hitty(like wild riders) in order to compensate a little for the lack of grave guard.
If a vamp had both massive monstrosity AND Predators Instincts I'd let him have heroic killing blow.
Blood Rage(feeding frenzy!)=All friendly units in the same close combat as this Vamp are affected by frenzy.

 

[Montesque]

I like Hatred of the arcane as is, personally. Why not make it an even 50 pts, though?

If you, DoN, could perhaps do a summation of the thoughts and suggestions regarding Ancient Beast and Varghkin, I believe that would be very helpful. It's kinda gone all over the place, I think it's time to compare and contrast, perhaps.

I'm not sure how Bat form could be changed to be more accessible except by lowering the cost, and 25 or under seems a bit low, to me anyway...possibly meld it with swift shadow to make it more desirable for its cost? Not sure on that one. Heh. Though the idea of fel bat deathstars is vaguely awesome, it probably wouldn't be balanced, lol.

Finally, I like the suggestions of DoN regarding Blood Rage and Predator's Instincts. Alternatively, you could give that particular ability (predator's instincts) a part similar to the Carnosaurs, i.e. any attack against a Large target does D3 wounds instead of just one, while still retaining KB against normal targets. But if simple Heroic KB works better for everybody, nifty.

Once we've ironed out the character bits, let me know, I'll work on the unit ideas in the mean time. Glad to see this is finally moving along nicely

 

[Sweeney Todd]

If Predator's Instincts were to be changed to Heroic KB, it would require a signifcant points increase to be fair. We can stick with either KB for 25 points, or KB and D3 wounds against Large Targets instead for 30 points. Or the 3rd option is to have it give HKB if Massive Monstrosity is also taken. That would be fair as you would be paying 70/75 points for the whole package, which would be the entirety of a hero vamp's allowance.

As for Hatred of the Arcane, it's nice to have but I'm a bit sceptical about things that take away weaknesses the list is supposed to have. Plus I can see definite abuse issues if the Strigoi player spams vampires with that power. I say limit it to one per army. Also, have it give Infinite Hatred when in combat with a unit containing a wizard, just for fluff's sake.

I think it'll be better to have Blood Rage give Frenzy in a radius instead of being in the same close combat. Either one could work though.

Also, we've already got the Court of the Ghoul King, so we definitely don't need something to fill in the gap a lack of Grave Guard would create.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Looking at the comments so far (I will leave the army list entries until after the powers) here is what we have:

Ancient Beast of Strigoi

Now as I said before, this needs to be the uber power. I know Grish mentioned that this power was OP and would be constantly chosen, however with some of the changes we have already made, I don't think this is necessarily the case now. Looking at the previous comments I think this should be more of a leader of the Strigoi, a symbol to the others, plus a real RnF killer, so here is what I propose.

The vampire gains +1A, +1S, +1T, 4+ ward and the Terror and Stomp special rules. In addition it also counts as the armies BSB and confers the relevant bonuses. Finally any unit joined by this vampire also gains the Hate special rule.

Varghkin

This power I really want to see some kind of uber monster - even possibly more so than a Varghulf. This could even possibly be the Varghulfs big brother

So I would propose:

The vampire looses all magic abilities and levels. In return he gains +1A, +2S, +1W and the Fly, Bestial Fury (as per the VC Rulebook), Terror, and Regeneration special rules, however the regeneration works on a 3+ instead of the normal 4+. He is also now classed as a monster and thus gains the Thunder Stomp rule and Large Target.

I think the Monster and Large Target special rules help balance him, in combination with loosing his magic.

Batform
I see no need to alter the points on this. I think it works and allowing one vampire per Fell Bat unit seems ok to me.

Blood Rage
I agree to Frenzy within a radius, something like:

As soon as the vampire with this power inflicts his first wound in combat, the vampire as well as all Ghouls (inc any Ghoul related units when we design them) within 8" gain the Frenzy special rule. This Frenzy can be lost as normal (if the vampire looses it, all units affected by this power loose the Frenzy rule as well), however if the vampire wounds again, then they vampire are Ghoul units can be repeatedly affected.

Might need some tidying on the wording, but you get the gist.

Predator's Instinct
I really dislike the idea of having one power affect another, I feel in that way you are dictating what powers should be taken. In that case I would go with the other proposed option of KB and D3 wounds against Large Targets, though for this I would cost it about 35pts?

Hatred of the Arcane
Sweeney, whilst I understand what you are saying about fixing weaknesses, I think there is a difference between workable weaknesses and crucial ones. I see this as a crucial one which can very easily be exploited again and again. They have no dispel scrolls, no items to help dispel etc, so in this case I really think it is something we at least need to provide some defence against.

So in this case I think the power works, however I do agree in its current state it could be exploited. I would agree on limiting to one per army.

So what does everyone else think?

 

[Montesque]

I think DoN's is a well presented case, and it's a fairly good set of rules to go a-testing in some real games

Oh, and I think that Sweeney's point about the Ghoul Court being the replacement for the Grave Guard is correct. If that means we need to tinker with the Court's stats and rules a little bit, fine, but it seems they're already filling a Grave Guardesque role in the army.

One more thing: We had discussed at one time having Ancient Beast confer either D6 wound hits or the blood fury (wounds spawn extra attacks) ability. Did we drop that, or was it just missed when you were listing what we had for it?

 

[Sweeney Todd]

I would cost Predator's Instinct at 30 points, if it only does D3 wounds against Large Targets,as this would be a very situational benefit. 35 points would be more justifiable if it did D3 wounds against monsters and Large Targets; remember, most Large Targets are monsters, but the reverse isn't necessarily true.

Since Varghkin would make the vampire a super-Varghulf, I would also make it a one per army power. If you don't, you would render actual Varghulfs obsolete. There is simply no comparison at all, for the exact same points cost you get something that is better in all ways except for being a Large Target(which isn't as big a drawback in 8ed as it was in 7th).

Regarding Ancient Beast, I too also thought that Red Fury was included in the package? We should take out Stomp to tune it down slightly, if that's the case. It isn't really that great a RnF killer without either Red Fury or Thunderstomp, and some people have already objected to the latter previously.

As for Blood Rage, I'd suggest simply having the vampire and all units within 6''(or 12'') start the game with Frenzy, so the wording would be like this:


Blood Rage

The vampire, and all friendly units within 6''/12'' gain the Frenzy special rule. This Frenzy can be lost as normal (if the vampire loses it, all units affected by this power lose the Frenzy rule as well). However, if the vampire subsequently deals an unsaved wound, it and all units within 6''/12'' will regain Frenzy.


Distance is negotiable. Possibly rename to Feeding Frenzy since that's pretty much what it is now.

PS: I dunno how many times I must post this before it really sinks in....BRING BACK GHOULKIN!

 

[Montesque]

I'll second the Ghoulkin recommendation, I always thought it was the most flavorful of the Strigoi powers.

 

[Bishop]

The only problem with Ghoulkin (as it is written) is that virtually the whole army with benefit from it... if we add in something like Ghoulkin we should either do:

a) a radius effect around the vampire (one per army only)

b) only the unit joined by the Vampire would gain its effect

Either of these would limit the effect, and stop it from causing the entire army from moving forward on the first turn.

I'd also recommend that no charging restriction is also applied if the "ghoulkin" power is used and the owning player goes first. (as per most other things now in 8th with scout type abilities).

A Ghoulkin type power is fine by me... as long as it's not a copypasta from the armybook.

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I'll read over the other powers when they are all written up and posted together, instead of jumping around all over the place trying to find what changed and whats current.

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For Blood Rage, I'd suggest that it's the joined unit only. That puts in line with the effects of a Minotaur character joining a Minotaur unit, so there should be no issue with something like that.

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I was looking for comments on Strigoi attacks count as magical. I found the big NOs, for an army wide... which is fine (because that wasn't what I meant anyways). I was thinking that the Vampires should/count as having magical attacks.

 

[Montesque]

I'd vote for Ghoulkin as either a radius (12"?) at a more expensive pts value, say 40-50, or a single-unit power for cheaper, say around 25. We could either select one or give the vampire the option of which to pick, perhaps.

What would be the justification for giving a Strigoi naturally magical attacks? I don't think it would be bad in a rules sense, I just don't know why a Strigoi's attacks would be naturally magical...

 

[Bishop]

The fluff reason would have to come from someone else you knows more about the Strigoi background (not me ).

I'm just looking at it from a rules/balance perspective... they need to have something that can deal with things that can only be effected by magical attacks. Whether that ends up being a blanket for all Strigoi vampires, or an option that they could purchase matters not to me. Fact is, virtually every character in every army (at least) has an option to get magical attacks...

 

[Montesque]

I see what you're saying, and it's a good point.

On the other hand, they CAN take Grave guard, which naturally have magic weapons, and ethereals ( which may or may not, I forget and don't currently have the book with me), so it might be kept as part of their weaknesses offsetting their beastly combat strength.

If we WERE to do it, I'd think it should be something like 20 pts, magic claw attacks...lore will be a bit tricky. I'll think about it and post it/edit this post with it later.