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Black Knight vs Blood Knight

Onikaigo

Vampire Lord
True Blood
Joined
May 17, 2008
Messages
3,607
#26
Wiley- My Dislike of blood knights is completely based on Frenzy. thus, Black Knights are better because they aren't Blood Knights. I place no value in a unit that can be led by the nose by a canny player, even if canny strategies and a custom built Blood Knight Delivery army can stop the canny player with canny playing.

The Strategic point that I'm trying to make is that against a good opponent, Blood Knights are as much of a liability as a strength. Tying up 50% of your army and 100% of your hitting power (And over 1/2 of your points!) in five models simply isn't good numbers in my opinion.

For 4 Blood Knights it's what, 200+ points? Plus a fully kitted lord is 450, so that's running up to 700 points just for the basics! Before you get the probably Banner of the Blood Keep, and/or the Drakenhoff, you're well above 700, even 800 points.

For 800 points, give or take, I can get 80 Skeletons in four units, with full command to boot. I vastly prefer to have more bodies for my opponent to deal with, over that -one- unit that means life or death for him. If he only has to worry about that one unit, and the rest of my army is purely built around keeping that unit alive, then my army is one dimensional and rather silly. It's like I'm taking a giant surgical needle and trying to jam it in my opponents eye, whereas having a flood of bodies on the field with a balanced mix of support and assault units of the cheaper and more reliable variety allows me to change that giant surgical needle into several scalpels. Each one probably unable to win the fight on its own, but together, well able to bring down opponents whom are prepared, or not so.

That was a really morbid comparison, but yes. We're Vampire players.

Yes, Blood Knights are a Lawnmower. Yes, they eat lots of things. Yes, they're probably one of the best heavy Cavalry units in the game. Yes, used correctly they can do wondrous things. No, I would rather not take the chance of having half of my army wiped out because of one bad decision, or bad dice rolling.
 

N.I.B

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Messages
2,370
#27
Blood Knights needs much babysitting of sacrificial support units and a caster lord to propel them into favourable combats. In fact they work better as a counter charge unit than as a hammer. Which is why I prefer Black Knights. Blacks are more versatile and give you better control, and they are just as durable with Helm of Commandment around. Plus much cheaper, allowing you to have a stronger army overall. Especially now with things like Infernal Gateway and Engine of the Gods around, expensive deathstar units are worse than ever.

I see almost no Bloods among the tournament elites of Sweden. Blacks all the way baby!
 

Ergo-Sum

Vampire Thrall
True Blood
Joined
Mar 5, 2009
Messages
976
#29
I think I tend to agree with Onikaigo, while frenzy enhances blood knights hitting power, it also makes them vulnerable to being kitted. This is even more true for our army, as we lack missile weapons, and (to some degree) magic missile spells (at least, recastable ones) to remove such fast re-directing units. For example harpies or furies. It's going to be hard to stop these getting in a place to re-direct your blood knights unless you run them very close to your covering unit of wolves or bats.

Ultimately, the issue is not if blood knights are grim, of course they are, it's their cost effectiveness. You are getting two black knights for every blood knight, and the blood knights need more spent on supporting them. That's the issue you have to look at, point cost for outcome achieved.
 

Swissdictator

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
1,547
#30
Blood Knights need a lot of support to make them work, otherwise they're going to be manipulated and destroyed very easily. My Chaos Dwarfs have seen these and annihilated these easily. Onikaigo's numbers are fairly spot on. Let's assume 700-800

Black Knights need minimal support. Maybe a magic banner, specifically the Banner of Strigos. Alternates would be x2 Unit Strength banner to give them outnumber, or Banner of the Barrows. A cheap Wight King is optional to make deadly, but not really needed. The ability to have ethereal movement to set up charges a lot easier, and to even *deny* charges, by sitting them behind terrain that interferes or otherwise blocks movement (and they can see past) is also a very nice trick to prevent counter charging.

Black Knights, cost around (I'm not posting exact values to keep GW happy)... 200-250 points. That's full command and magic banner. They'll hit hard, they have Killing Blow (which is nasty in effect, but also in terms of intimidation). If you give them a Wight King with some equipment you're looking at right about 400 points total for a very deadly unit (Sword of Kings for the win to maximize that killing blow).

Just like Blood Knights, you can invocate or Vanhel's the Black Knights. Plus terrain won't slow them down, or frenzy pull them off into nowhere (or a spot where they're going to be squashed with a nice charge).

In terms of pure cost/benefit analysis black knights seem to win out, as I can invest the points and have several other good units in the army. We need the numbers, so are infantry is truly vital in many ways.


The Blood Knights at most standard game sizes, once you kit them out and give them the support they need, tie up so much of your resources (including casting) that the rest of your army is much more impotent. Black Knights can be left on their own, or with minor support. While they may not be as deadly, you don't lose as much or need to compensate as strongly when they fail.

Plus, saying your store has some of the best players in the country or world, without any credentials is simply trolling. I'm sure several of us on this site are very good tacticians as well. I've won Best General with my Counts at a 3 day, 10 game tournament before. At another tournament I won 4, tied once. With my *Chaos Dwarfs* playing a fairly friendly list I have achieved Best Overall as well and I have even won all my games at tournaments several times with that Chaos Dwarf list. So, even if I'm not a super genius, I'm not some idiot either.

They might look good on paper, but you need to realize that in the last year, people have learned how to deal with Blood Knights. As they shocked people the most.

A one or two trick pony style list will ultimately fail against experienced players. Having several strengths, and the ability to shift those strengths if needed, is the truly ultimate advantage you can bring.



Ultimately it really matters on the size of the game
In a 2,999+ point game or bigger, than the Blood Knights are viable, and a very good choice. I specified 2,999+ to reflect point size, as opposed to having a 2nd lord... but that 2nd lord can help too. It's just that at the vast majority of tournaments, they will eat up such a large part of your army to get working.

Even a friendly VC list is likely spending 700 points on characters. Tournament lists spend anywhere from 900-1200 points on characters. We don't have that much points to spare. Plus you're likely not supporting the rest of the army with magic or some characters SEVERELY weakening them... making them much easier to provide points to your opponent.



Even playing the old Chaos Dwarfs, which many deem uncompetitive... I laugh at Blood Knights. Dwarfs? Expect the Rune of Burning to negate the Dickenhoff banner, and maybe a grudge thrower (I've seen more and more of them over the last year) as they can violate knights as well...

My Dark Elves would be no different, I can guarantee you I would render your Blood Knights dead, or ineffective while I focus my firepower and mobile units on killing off the rest of your army.


Blood Knights need far to much support for their cost, at the 2250 and smaller game sizes, to be worth it... as the rest of the army needs plenty of support too.


Again, your attitude is much like that of a troll's attitude.
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Messages
27,916
#31
Wiley One said:
Seriously though, at my local store we have some of the best players in the country, and many would say world. None of the players here would ever consider running Black Knights without already having a unit of Blood Knights. Maybe the list we play is just more advanced than what the rest of you are seeing or playing. Or, possibly that the level of players is superior to other places, but I have only seen a rare time or two that the knights have not decimated whatever they played against. They never die (Invocation), can charge 22" in a turn (Van Hel's Dance), and as mentioned before have an amazing stat line. I do not understand the rationalization of others arguments that the Black Knights are better. I am more than willing to counter point any situation that you may have gotten into with helpful tactics and strategies, so your list and play will improve, if you ask.
Wiley, whilst your stance is fine you will not make people receptive to your opinion by stating that you and your group are superior players and insinuating that we are lesser players.

Secondly some of your comments rely on some things that cannot be certain. "They never die" - I assure you that vs a HE or Dwarf army kitted out for magic defence that it can prove quite difficult to keep the IoN going through. Same with Vanhel's. I can only assume your opponents take weak magical defence to keep allowing you to cast IoN and vanhels on your Blood Knights.

I would also be interested to see how you counter the frenzy? Do your opponents not take flyers, fast cav etc A WE opponant should have your Blood Knights going merrily through a forest.

I would be very interested to see:

Your army list
Your opponents army list
Your justification behind stating your group are possibly the best in the world
 
Joined
Apr 16, 2009
Messages
143
#32
To me they both seem to have their uses.

Of course I don't go around claiming the list I play is advanced. I've played against many advanced VC players over the years and I never had any that had to brag.
 

Tal Rasha

Grave Guard
Joined
Jan 24, 2008
Messages
208
#33
First let me say that I don't believe you should be comparing these two units. They are not made for the same purpose.

Having said that, Blood Knights are better than Black Knights almost every time, which is why they are so expensive. Here's why:

* - WS. At WS 3, BLK Knights are hitting everything on 4s. Not good. With only one attack each, the amount of damage inflicted by them in comparison is weak. Bld Knights have a high WS, hitting nearly everything on 3s.

* - # At. As pointed out, with only 1 attack, Blk Knights don't hit nearly as often as Bld Knights. With 3 attacks each, the Bld Knights will destroy anything they charge. Did I mention the 3 ST7 attacks?!!

* - St7. St6 is nice, no doubt. ST7 is even better. ST7 makes steam tanks wince. It blows up chariots. It murders Blood Thirsters. It REALLY rocks. Now would you like 1 ST6 AT or 3 ST7 ones? Exactly.

* - Nightmares vs. Skeletal Steeds. Ethereal is very cool for going through terrain. And if it was a secret that you could surprise an opponent with, such as an DE assassin, then it could be a huge deal. Sadly, everyone knows you have it, and a smart player won't wait on the other side of a forest for you to charge through. Yes, they might forget, but they might forget your Bld Knights have frenzy also. You can't count on dumb and/or forgetful opponents. You have to work on the premise they are smart. Keep in mind also that Nightmares have WS4 IIRC at ST4, which is much nicer than Skeletal Steeds' 3 and 3. Frenzy has been stated here as being a bad thing, but in this case it also gives Nightmares 2 attacks. Nice!

* - Finally, the Bld Knight champion can take a magic weeapon. Not a huge deal, but you could hear nurgle crying when I stabbed his herald with a flaming lance 4 times.

Combine all that info above and you will easily see how Bld Kbights surpass Blk Knights in every way. Blk Knights don't even compare, really. But let's do it anyway.

10 Black Knights w/command (5 wide): 6 WS3, ST4 ATs, hitting on 4s, wounding on 2s = 3 hits, 3 wounds. 5 WS 3, ST3 hitting 4s, wounding 4s = 2 hits, 1 wound. So 3 at ST 6, 1 at ST3 (on average, rounding and being nice). Not so good. But they have a rank, so we'll give them +1 wound for CR. Let's say they all wound (no saves), thats a total CR 7 with outnumber, but assuming no other modifiers.

5 Blood Knights w/command (5 wide): 16 WS 4, ST 7 ATs, hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s = 11 Hits, 9 wounds (roughly). And 10 WS4 ST4 ATs, hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s = 7 hits and 5 wounds (roughly). So that's 14 wounds (again let's say no wounds, which works more in favor of the Black Knights), and assuming no other modifiers thats a CR of about 15. The reason Blood Knights cost twice as much is because you get twice the value in combat. 15 vs 7 is huge.

My mathammer could be off, and I rounded a tad here and there, but regardless, these two units are really not comparable. How could you?

One advantage of Black Knights is that skeletal steeds can run through woods. That can be handy at times. The other advantage is that Black Knights only take a special slot, so if you really want two other rares, that may help.

I don't agree with the sentiment that Bloods need baby sitting. If anything, they need less because they are so awesome. They attract all kinds of attention, but that can be a good thing, too. Let them do their thing. They are very resilient.

Side notes - A few of you mentioned taking magic banners for the Blk Knights. Fine. If we're adding magic banners, then let's be fair and give our Bld Knights one also. I'd like to add the banner giving my Bld Knights a 4+ ward vs. shooting. Or one that gives them hatred. Now you have hitting on 3s, rerolling. But let's not compare magic banners, as we're just talking about the units themselves.

A few of you mentioned you don't like frenzy. Have you tried to screen them? I use wolves and bats to cover my knights and never have an issue. Sure if you let them get lead around like a donkey then you're not going to like frenzy. Don't let them! I guess I'm just used to frenzy having used my khorne knights for so long. It's not a huge deal if you know how to decrease the chances of your opponent manipulating it to his advantage.

So to compare these two units isn't fair. As others have mentioned, they serve somewhat different roles. Without a character leading them, Blk Knights are better served as a flanking support role. Bld Knights can handle anything head on with no character, and are better suited to be hammers. They also draw a lot of attention, allowing your other units to move about unscathed, which is useful in itself. Tjhey have such a nice reputation of being an awesome unit that there's a psychological impact on the game. Even if they never get into combat, your opponent will spent a lot of resources trying to take them out. That is worth a lot in my mind.

Anyway, that's my two cents. They are both very good units, but you'll have to decide which you prefer better yourself. I will comment that every VC player down at my store (about 4-5 I'd say) uses Blood Knights over Black Knights. They just rock that much.
 

Ergo-Sum

Vampire Thrall
True Blood
Joined
Mar 5, 2009
Messages
976
#34
Hmmm, I kinda of agree with your point Tal Rasha, in that they are different units the perform different roles, however, I wouldn't say that blood knights are hands down better. As I said before, it's cost effectiveness that is important.

In your example the 10 Black knights + command cost 320. The 5 Blood knights + command cost 325. The thing is, while your mathhammer is all well and good (I know I'm as guilty of this as anyone:rolleyes:) you need to look at the context. That one huge unit of black knights could be two 5 man units, which is much more likely. That actually gives you alot more tactical options, even if its just hitting a unit from the front and the side at the same time, and breaking ranks.

Another point, is that both units are equally tough to kill. So, it's alot more easy to kill 5 T4 2+ save models than 10 (or two units of 5) especially if that second unit can sit in terrain or behind walls without it affecting their charge range or manovorability.

I also have to pick you up on:-

Tal Rasha said:
I don't agree with the sentiment that Bloods need baby sitting. If anything, they need less because they are so awesome.
Then you also say:-

Tal Rasha said:
A few of you mentioned you don't like frenzy. Have you tried to screen them? I use wolves and bats to cover my knights and never have an issue.
That's, at a minimum, another 100 points spent on baby sitting, including a special slot. That's the sort of thing people mean when they say that they need baby sitting. Even then, frenzy can be used against you by some armies who have very good baiting troops.

I agree, that people can be so awed by them that it affects their game play, in the same way a Dragon can. However, few models means you are more at risky to some freaky dice rolling, as you're be rolling less dice for armour saves etc. It's always the risk with any small number/high power unit. In the same way that once blood knights are in combat with some thing good they are great because they are rolling more dice.

I think both units are very good at what they do, but blood knights should not be seen as the be all and end all of powerful units in our army book. It's perfectly possible to make a very powerful army with out using them, in my opinion.
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Messages
27,916
#35
I would like to add one note - whilst it may have gone a little (xD), Tal Rasha provided an argument backed up with some nice stats, and persuasive arguments. It made interesting reading. Nicely done.
 

Onikaigo

Vampire Lord
True Blood
Joined
May 17, 2008
Messages
3,607
#36
I agree with you, Tal Rasha --Even against my own stalwart stand against the bloodknights!-- that statwise, effectiveness wise, statistically, and awe inspiringly awesome wise Blood Knights rock my socks off. They really do. We've determined again and again that blood knights are a lawnmower with fangs that, when built with the right characters, doesn't stay dead and eats lords for breakfast. Good. Cool beans.

Moving on past the number of attacks and resilience that the Blood Knights boast over the black knights.

Putting 300+ points into one unit is simply too large of a hammer in my opinion. I've never, save when I deliberately told my oponnent beforehand, taken a unit more than 300 points. Including my Grave Guard. (20X 240 points, command) Magic banner is typically left at home. For the same price as 5 models that are deceptively easy to kill I get 20 models with sustainable combat resolution and regenerative properties in the form of Invocation. Sure they don't kill things as fast. Sure, they don't move as fast. But those 100+ points I saved give me a CC. Or another bound item. Or more skeletons. Or a unit of Zombies to add even more meat to my core.

The point I'm making is Blood Knights are too fragile. Yes. I said it. They're predictable, they're fragile, and it takes half of your armies points to look after them and deliver them to your opponent where it will hurt the most. This dictates how my army plays. I don't like that.

Say, I take a unit of Black knights. Half the price. I typically run mine in groups of 5, no command. Rank breaker and flanker unit. It has one purpose in (un)life. They hit flanks, take out ranks, Boom. Their price is paid for.

Say, I take a unit of 5 blood knights, kitted out however. 4+ ward because they need it, a fighty Vamp with blood drinker. Ya know what, leave him out. 5 knights, no command, Banner. Their entire purpose is to eat things. Definitively different than Black Knights, whom are a support unit (As I play them). Blood Knights find the nearest enemy (Frenzy), eat them alive, steamroll forward, and pray they don't get flanked. With a static CR of 0! (Pending outnumber by whatever unit hits them, -1) not speaking of flanks! So unless your one knight on the flank can get some pretty confident rolling, you're going to lose by static. Fragile, valuable knights down. Call the medic.

Black knights- They get smashed in the flank after earning their keep with one unit. I don't care, they're done. They could have done more, yes, but that 200+ points I wiped out with them makes up for their loss.


Black knights are expendable, Blood knights aren't. Big, big advantage to Black Knights.

Bottom line, I -still- say Black Knights are better. They're expendable, cheap, they get their job done with minimal support (Varghulf, lycni vamp for marching, etc...).

As compared to Blood Knights, who are the elite of the mounted peoples. They're expensive, invaluable, indispensable, and need support from at LEAST 200 points of other units.
 
Joined
Jun 13, 2009
Messages
6
#38
Ok, so here is my list, though I feel I shouldn't share it.

Vamp Lord 475pts
Frostblade
Infinate Hatred
Red Fury
Beguile
(Nightmare)
LVL 3

Vamp 188pts
Dark Acolyte
scroll
scroll
(Nightmare)

Wight King 240pts
BSB Drakenhof Banner
(Skeletal Steed)

Necromancer 190pts
Book of Arkhan
Van Hel's Danse Macabre
(Corpse Cart)-Balefire

Corpse Cart 100pts
Balefire

6x Cairn Wraith 325pts
Banshee

6x Blood Knights 385pts
NO Champ- no challenge
NO musician
YES Standard-Royal Standard of Strigos

12x Dire Wolves 106pts
Doom wolf

20x Zombies 80pts
NO Command

20x Zombies 80pts
NO Command

20x Zombies 80pts
NO Command


Total-2249pts

8-casting dice
6-dispel dice
2-scrolls
3-bound spells (2x Miasma, Book) all bound 3

So, there's the list. You can bash all you want, but the fact of the matter is: 1 no one wants to play against it 2 we have an ongoing tally of what the Frostblade has hacked through (including: Steam Tanks,Bloodthirsters,Giants,Steggadons,obviously entire units of dudes,WoC War Shrines,you name it, its all on the board now and many things in the teens and twenties(like Steggadons hehe sorry Sean).

So, some general info and strategies. Lord, Vamp and BSB all go in with the dogs, apparently people assumed that they would go in with Blood Knights. Corpse Carts bring up the rear to give ASF and help Danse units in. Zombies screen and tie up things while the big boys come in. I use the Raise Dead spell more than almost anything, I like for units to run away through 5 Zombies and get destroyed, there's something refreshing about that ;) It is also great for screening and march blocking units or you can also tie up thirsters for 5 turns with a raise dead and a danse and some invocations ;) Sorry Matt, for all 6 times. Not really!

So, bash away, all I can say is that until you play with it or against it like any list you can't really know. I will be taking this list to the Battle On Beale St. in Memphis, TN. next month and I will let you know how I do. There are a couple of other guys going with variations of the same list as well, main emphasis, the Frosty Dog Star unit and 6 Blood Knights and such.

Also, I wasn't bragging about myself in any way, my store truly does have great players in it. One of them has gotten Best General in the last 2 IGT's he attended, and probably will at Beale, and the rest of them are always in the top 5 with him, I am not going to name drop because I am not sure if they would appreciate it.

Thanks anyway, and no offense meant to anyone who took anything offensively.

GO TEAM BLOOD KNIGHTS! hehe
 

Onikaigo

Vampire Lord
True Blood
Joined
May 17, 2008
Messages
3,607
#39
So, in this list you take a Blood Knight unit with a Standard, AND the Doggy Death Star. Wow. Remember your first note, specifically note # 1 so we're definitely not confused? Nobody wants to play against this list?

Because it's a tournament style Gouda-cheese fest. Whatever makes you happy, do whatever you want! I'm not bashing the list, I'm merely stating it as I see it. Honestly, this kind of list NEVER makes it into my composition. I'm already sneered at for playing Vampires, even though I always bring incredibly soft lists. This would make my already rare games even more rare. Possibly extinct.

Anyways, moving on. Good and bad things about the lists.

Good:

Smashy! holy piss! Combat lords, combat Vamps, Blood Knights. You're a lawnmower with the speed and mobility to back it up. Better hope you roll a Vanhels.
Regenerating Dogs. Dude. This is amazing. It just makes me laugh.

Bad things
NO protection for the blood knights. A 2+ only goes so far against Bolt Throwers, Cannons, and other such nonsense. That entire unit only has 6 wounds, AKA two flank shots (maybe three) from a BT, a few good Cannons takes em out of the equation, or just a decent amount of concentrated fire. They're too fragile, and also indispensable.
Doggy death star- I personally don't like it. At all. I think it's bad tactics to give dogs regeneration. T3, no armor? Alright. You almost always get that 4+. That's all you get, it's wasted points IMHO. Sure, your characters are there, but that unit of DIRE WOLVES costs you what, almost 850 points? Just really rough math there.

Overall a big weakness I see is a lack of survivable models. 6 BK's, 3 Characters (Regeneration, wolves don't count as 'Survivable', even with regen).

((Edit into the middle of the post: )) Whoa! NONE of your Vampires have Armor! You're relying totally on Regeneration for your saves? You've got guts, I give you that.

Wraiths are easy enough to snipe, given the correct character/magical unit, and Zombies...Well, kill the doggy unit and your army goes to hell in a handbasket rather quickly. Simply due to lack of models.


Overall, it's a very Gamblish approach, very typical of Blood Knight builds. Either your Death star/Blood Knights get into combat, or your game is over. It's that simple. One trick pony, with a Van hels or two thrown in.


As a side note, from genuine curiosity, why do you think it's funny when nobody wants to play you? I get an impression of chuckling when I read that first line.


Now, before anyone takes this offensively, that's the farthest from my intention. I'm brutal at times, but I truly don't mean to be mean or somewhat condescending.
 
Joined
Jun 1, 2009
Messages
12
#40
i like them both but black knights cant get killed by fanatics like my blood knights did yesterday! hate those damn things sooooo much
 
Joined
Jun 13, 2009
Messages
6
#41
Some of the things I have seen and read so far. I guess I should have asked whether this thread was talking about fluff lists for fun games or competetive lists for tournament play. I was relating the use of Blood Knights to tournament play, because them being one of the top 5 cav units in the game kinda makes them tournament use only in my opinion. As for people not wanting to play against the list, can you blame them? The list is specifically designed to wipe opposing boards.

Quote-Onikaigo
NO protection for the blood knights. A 2+ only goes so far against Bolt Throwers, Cannons, and other such nonsense. That entire unit only has 6 wounds, AKA two flank shots (maybe three) from a BT, a few good Cannons takes em out of the equation, or just a decent amount of concentrated fire. They're too fragile, and also indispensable.

Well I guess if I don't screen the unit with wraiths to protect them from these types of things that would be a problem, but since my tactics aren't putting units out there skipping through a meadow they typically don't have a problem. Additionally, the spell raise dead, as I said before is the spell I use the most (along with Invocation), it is pretty good at taking away line of sight or engaging war machine units so they can't fire their weapons. Also, even if I am unable to restore the unit of BK with Invocations the General's unit will make up for the points lost.

Quote-Onikaigo
Doggy death star- I personally don't like it. At all. I think it's bad tactics to give dogs regeneration. T3, no armor? Alright. You almost always get that 4+. That's all you get, it's wasted points IMHO. Sure, your characters are there, but that unit of DIRE WOLVES costs you what, almost 850 points? Just really rough math there.

As for the Doggy Death Star unit. The main things to consider here are these: 1-the general is going to kill anything in the front rank or more (ie no attacks back and no save required) 2-the dogs are used because they are fast cav, cheap, and do not resrict the capabilities of the general, vamp, or BSB. The wolves total point cost is 106pts., yes the unit with all the heroes amounts to more but you're talking about killing dogs. Please if you are gonna quote something state the facts correctly as I too am a person who calls it like they see it and will not hesitate to point these things out.

Quote-Onikaigo
Overall, it's a very Gamblish approach, very typical of Blood Knight builds. Either your Death star/Blood Knights get into combat, or your game is over. It's that simple. One trick pony, with a Van hels or two thrown in.

If it's that much of a gamble why is it statistically consistent, in addition if it were that much of a gamble I highly doubt that you would have had so much criticism about it. Right?

Quote-Onikaigo
As a side note, from genuine curiosity, why do you think it's funny when nobody wants to play you? I get an impression of chuckling when I read that first line.

I like it when people cringe at a list, and yes I like it just as much when I cringe at someone elses list. It is part of the fun of the tournament scene. I enjoy the travel and places, the people I meet at events, and the lists that I have to play against, both the tough and soft. What I truly think is funny is the fact that you are calling out a player and a list that you have never met or played against and making a lot of assumptions about them both. That's truly funny, but cheers anyway, next time I get drunk I will take an extra shot of Sake just for you.

Hate to quote you word for word but here goes a little copy/paste.

Now, before anyone takes this offensively, that's the farthest from my intention. I'm brutal at times, but I truly don't mean to be mean or somewhat condescending.
 

MasterSpark

Nostalgian
Staff member
True Blood
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
4,691
#42
Hopefully it's not too late to add some simple opinion into the thread, but I use the black knights for when I need additional mobility and terrain-negation in my lists. Try flushing shades out of cover with blood knights. :lol: Wolves could possibly do it as well, though the nasty elves would likely neuter their efforts with the stand-and-shoot alone..

Also,
Wiley One said:
2 we have an ongoing tally of what the Frostblade has hacked through (including: Steam Tanks,Bloodthirsters,Giants,Steggadons,obviously entire units of dudes,WoC War Shrines,you name it, its all on the board now and many things in the teens and twenties(like Steggadons hehe sorry Sean).
If you hadn't written that, I would never have thought that your doggie unit would stand a chance against the usual build of 'Thirster that we all know and love (Obsidian Armour, Immortal Fury, Firestorm Blade). The frostblade would be negated (and more importantly, all of your regeneration!), your lord slain in a single round of combat, the next turn your BSB, hero vampire and so on. How have you managed to break several thirsters with that unit, if you don't mind me asking?

Perhaps the tournament-setting style of play discourages the firestorm blade due to high elves? That'd change it a fair bit, of course..
 

Onikaigo

Vampire Lord
True Blood
Joined
May 17, 2008
Messages
3,607
#43
Touche, Wiley. Touche.

Forgive me for writing that whenever I was tired, and unable to control my roaming fingers. =P I guess lack of specification, and my inherent good sense (Wha-?) didn't prevail this time. I offer apologies for coming off sounding like, well, a jerk.

*shrugs* We come from different backgrounds. I never play tournie style armies, nor does anyone in my play group, unless, well, we're hosting a tournie. Ironic, right?

Ah well. Time to somewhat gracefully bow out of this thread, happy gaming!
 
Joined
Jun 13, 2009
Messages
6
#44
@ Masterspark

Well that particular combo is tough, against that I would probably run a unit of raised zombies up to it and Danse them in if necessary and keep the thirster hacking away at zombies the entire game (hehe Matt). I have no problem negating the flagship of their army with zombos, and just waving to it as my Doggy star cruises by and wipes the rest of the board. Additionally, the BK pack enough of a punch to bust him in addition to the static combat res offered by the ranks and numbers of the zombos, and I should be able to manage a flank as well. If the opposing player has an idea of what my plan is he will move his thirster around the board staying outside of 20" because thats the exact distance you can achieve from a raise dead and a Van Hel's. Ironically, that's also the disance they move. Hope that answers your question. I don't ALWAYS kill the big stuff but it has happened many a time and the list is ever growing, we are thinking of posting a tally board at the local store, if we do I will be sure to post a pic. xD
 

MasterSpark

Nostalgian
Staff member
True Blood
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
4,691
#45
Oh yes, the olde tarpitting-scheme is one that I've used against the big nasties myself as well, heheh. :)

I was just curious as to how several bloodthirsters ended up on your tally when, given that set-up, they do have the tools necessary to take away all of your advantages.
 

Capt Rubber Ducky

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Jun 9, 2009
Messages
1,549
#46
Sorry Wiley One if I sound brutal but this insulted me quite a bit:

"Seriously though, at my local store we have some of the best players in the country, and many would say world."

Do you have any proof of this? Because I could see your list struggling a lot in the enviroment I play in.

Also Your 'dogy Death star' Doing some maths agaisnt a T4, WS3, As 4+ opponant you would be looking at only about 5 wounds which in my opinion isn't enough, cosidering the very high cost of the unit (1006pts).

Your general isn't that heavily armored so i could see him being killed quite easily by a powerful combat hero with ASF or by an assasin.

I prefer Black Knights in 2000pt games because Bloodknights take so many of your points up and black knights can be easilly controlled and are just a tough as Blood knights for half the points, but I think Bloodknights are definatly worth taking in 3000pt+ battles due to the Killing power the posses.

EDIT- Having just reread my post i realise it was quite unpolite and a bit insulting this is very unlike how I normally write/talk I appologise for this as I was quite annoyed at the time, I have ammended my Post as I believe it was unnessasary. I will avoid writing like that in future.
 

Ergo-Sum

Vampire Thrall
True Blood
Joined
Mar 5, 2009
Messages
976
#47
Ok guys, obviously, this is the internet, but lets all try to be as nice as possible to each other. Disagreement is good, but lets all try to keep our feelings in check as much as possible. If nothing else, we can all agree to disagree :)

I'd like to point out that this is not aimed at anyone in particular, but passions are starting to get a little too heated.
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
125
#48
It seems this discussion went 2 ways, I have comments on both.

Wiley, I love blood knights and always field them. Howevery if you would field this list at most of the tournaments I have been to lately you would be in trouble.

Sadly you live a bit to far off to try your list against my full combat Tournament winning list.

At the other side, some people don't take blood knights because they are:

1. To expensive, I think this is a lousy reason. If you cannot protect your blood knights its more your own fault then your army's.

2. Frenzy, screening and not rushing them forward in every situation is what makes frenzy a risk worth taking and yes sometimes you get flank charges but you can take them if you build your unit well.

Some times I even LET them get trapped so they can hold up an opponents unit and I finish them off with my charging zombie dragon lord.

Making the opponent think his trick worked really does work its charm.
 
Joined
Feb 5, 2009
Messages
14
#49
I've run both Black and Bloods. Honestly Black has my vote.

I use a set of 9 Black Knights w/ strigos and bsb drakenhof. This ensures no rubber lances and I get to the target...plus with the numbers and static CR, its a fairly hard unit to break. With them not getting kited and their mobility, I say Black is the way to go.
 
Joined
May 22, 2009
Messages
104
#50
When will blood knights win when they get flank charged????
I mean I play them with a bsb with blood drinker and Ihate and if they get charged by lets say a unit of empire static infantry with a captain(wich isn't so hard because the empire dude WILL be able to shoot 14 wolves and 3 fell bats to bits).

Let's count: for static you have 2 being the bsb and a regular standard (if you don't play war banner wich I prefer to have on GG or skellies)
He has 3 ranks banner 1 units strength 1 flank 1= 6
Then captain challenges and attacks: 3*1/2*5/6*2/3= 0.83wounds
Lets say he kills the blood knight, if not the blood knight won't do much against1+ as
So you loose with 5 and 1 blood knight was killed so your BSB is alone against a units static infantry.

As I said before I think the optimal vampire counts build doesn't include blood knights but they are hard and fun to play with. And in some countries a complete surprise last weekend I was playing in Germany and I was the only vamp player with blood knights (there were 3).

So as a conclusion use blood knights if you want a challenge or if you like their fluff. Otherwise I would say black knights is more your cup of tea.
 
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