Dealing with 8th edition High Elves

[yoroba]

The only person I play against uses HEs, and with the new armybook comming out and all it's horribly cheap but powerful units, I've gotten nervous about our upcomming gaming weekend..

Has anyone gotten to play against the new HEs yet? And if so, have you got any good tips?



I plan to use a 2000pts armylist that looks a little bit like this:

One vampire and one necromancer.

About 70 skeletons.

40 grave guards.

10 Hex wraiths.

2 terror gheists.

 

[Mr. West]

... and all it's horribly cheap but powerful units, ...

Wha' ? Makes me wonder what I did miss while reading the book.

Has anyone gotten to play against the new HEs yet?

Yes. It was pretty fun and the book fits in rather nicely with the other 8th edition books I played against or used myself, that being Vampire Counts, Empire, WoC and Ogres for the most part. And no, the new HE book is in no way as powerful as the Ogre book.

And if so, have you got any good tips?

I could give you pointers if you could hint at the specific units your friend wil be using.
The new HE book is actually very versatile and allows for a lot of fun army 'builds'. Oh, don't get me wrong, there's crap units no one will take, or units that might be fun but will see no use in a tourney environment, but overall you have a nice selection of units and possible army lists.
So, any idea what you'll be up against ?

 

[Zhatan]

... and all it's horribly cheap but powerful units, ...

Wha' ? Makes me wonder what I did miss while reading the book.

I think you missed how horribly cheap their elites have gotten.

 

[Mr. West]

I think you missed how horribly cheap their elites have gotten.

Actually, most of the points adjustments are very much in line with other 8th ed. books thus far. That's only my personal opinion of course.
Going through special one by one ... Lion Chariots ... horribly overpriced. White Lions, Swordmasters ... seem okay for the most part, I'd prolly put them at 14 pts. instead.
Shadow Warriors ... kidding me ? No one will field them anyways. Except for those people who'll aim for an allout shooty list (like me ).
Sky Cutter and Tiranoc are mostly okay points wise.
The one unit I'd agree with you on being totally undercosted is the silly Phoenix Guard. Their potential (both on their own, as well as in various combination builds) is immense, and they should be priced at 18 pts. or something.
I'm undecided on the Dragon Princes, haven't seen them in action yet.

 

[The Sun King]

Mr. West har you compared the pricetag on a Empire Greatsword, GG, Tomb Guard or Black Orc with a SM or WL? If not let me clarify: White Lions and Phoenix Guards are very(maybe not horribly) cheap for what their abilities are!

 

[Valle]

So have they comepletely screwed up and done a 7th demon thing with HE or whats the story? Heard about their banner as well.

 

[RobTheWise]

Mr. West har you compared the pricetag on a Empire Greatsword, GG, Tomb Guard or Black Orc with a SM or WL? If not let me clarify: White Lions and Phoenix Guards are very(maybe not horribly) cheap for what their abilities are!

Toughness 3, 5+ armour save, nuff said.

Even the weakest units can actually do a lot of damage to Sword Masters and White Lions in combat. Competent core units even more so.

Phoenix Guard on the other hand are a different beast.

So have they comepletely screwed up and done a 7th demon thing with HE or whats the story? Heard about their banner as well.

Absolutely not.

 

[Shareya]

I believe to annoy the high elf players, their phoenixes should always be referred to as frozen chicken and fried chicken.

 

[Nagashizzar]

their phoenixes should always be referred to as frozen chicken and fried chicken.

Epic post of the week right here!

 

[Mr. West]

Mr. West har you compared the pricetag on a Empire Greatsword, GG, Tomb Guard or Black Orc with a SM or WL? If not let me clarify: White Lions and Phoenix Guards are very(maybe not horribly) cheap for what their abilities are!

Toughness 3, 5+ armour save, nuff said.

Even the weakest units can actually do a lot of damage to Sword Masters and White Lions in combat. Competent core units even more so.

This. RobTheWise got it right.

The only unit that's really underpriced is the silly Phoenix Guard.

 

[Narenzade]

I haven't played against the High Elves yet, but everything I've heard is that they are underpowered or okay. Losing rerolls on their Swordmasters and White Lions was quite the blow.

The changes to Hoeth and Teclis have brought them to a reasonable level. Also the removal of the Banner of Sorcery is HUGE.

We'll have to see as people experiment with builds, but I haven't heard much in the way of getting shit rolled.

 

[Willis_Zen]

Losing rerolls on their Swordmasters and White Lions was quite the blow.

They gained an extra rank of attacks on both of these units though so it is less of a blow than you would think. It kind of evens out.

 

[bigbadbat]

Folks still need to ride the learning curve. What I've seen so far is a bunch of holdover lists trying to hold on to past glories.
It's a different army. They have always been surgical, now they just have different tools.
The movement of Reavers and Silver Helms to core will change the look of most armies.
I can tell you now it is not a plug and play army like WoC or OK. This book is not for beginners.

 

[RobTheWise]

Losing rerolls on their Swordmasters and White Lions was quite the blow.

They gained an extra rank of attacks on both of these units though so it is less of a blow than you would think. It kind of evens out.

True, but it means you have to take more of them for them to be effective. Making small units of 14 (7x2) no where near as effective. Also it kinda evens out for White Lions, but not Swordmasters as they have 2 attacks each so lose out even more now that re-rolls are gone.

 

[Willis_Zen]

Losing rerolls on their Swordmasters and White Lions was quite the blow.

They gained an extra rank of attacks on both of these units though so it is less of a blow than you would think. It kind of evens out.

True, but it means you have to take more of them for them to be effective. Making small units of 14 (7x2) no where near as effective. Also it kinda evens out for White Lions, but not Swordmasters as they have 2 attacks each so lose out even more now that re-rolls are gone.

Excellent points. Still, it is not as though they took away re-rolls and got nothing in return, they are also ~10% cheaper a model. You may have to invest in some larger units but they are still incredibly deadly units.

 

[Tamodan Varison]

Mr. West, Mr. Narenzade and Mr. Wise are (IMHO) on the money. The loss of ASF even with GW and the loss of all abilities to generate PD are only one setback, while the improvements are numerous. Nevertheless, those two losses are not compensated by the overall increase of power of the whole book, as they've majorly crippled what is still the most viable tourney build, while improving all other builds. Which makes for a book with fantastic internal balance, yet is a bit low on the power scale externally

 

[xFallenx]

Which makes for a book with fantastic internal balance, yet is a bit low on the power scale externally

It's much too early to be claiming "low on the power scale". It's not a point & click army, so if you mean that a newb can't pick it up & win a tourney next weekend, I'll agree it's low on the power scale.

When in the hands of any competent Elf general, these new subtle bonuses are going to ruin a lot of peoples days.

 

[Tamodan Varison]

A skilled player will nearly always beat an unskilled one

 

[yoroba]

I could give you pointers if you could hint at the specific units your friend wil be using.

I don't know for sure. He usually makes about fifteen different lists for a gaming-weeking, and then ends up making an entirely new one on a napkin, just before we start the first game.

But he has hinted that he's going to try out a very shooty army. Something about 70+ missile attacks per round.

And I'm sure he'll use those ugly Skycutter Chariots and probably also those ladies with the silly-looking flaming bows. And maybe even a phoenix, whose rider looks like he's getting his balls burned.(seriously, what is up with all those lame new HE models?? The skycutter chariot either looks like a flying boxcar or those stupid flying racers from The Phantom Menace).

Have you got any advice for combatting this sort of HE army?

 

[The Sun King]

This is not the second coming of DoC 7th.

Mr. West har you compared the pricetag on a Empire Greatsword, GG, Tomb Guard or Black Orc with a SM or WL? If not let me clarify: White Lions and Phoenix Guards are very(maybe not horribly) cheap for what their abilities are!

Toughness 3, 5+ armour save, nuff said.

Even the weakest units can actually do a lot of damage to Sword Masters and White Lions in combat. Competent core units even more so.

This. RobTheWise got it right.

The only unit that's really underpriced is the silly Phoenix Guard.

Nope, sorry to be obnoxious here, but referring to their low tougness and 5+ AS doesn't really nullify the fact that they will SLAUGHTER almost anything BEFORE they get to hit back. The weakest units will do damage to them? Nope, they will vaporize when they get into contact with a horde of these badboys.

 

[Yorga]

Nope, sorry to be obnoxious here, but referring to their low tougness and 5+ AS doesn't really nullify the fact that they will SLAUGHTER almost anything BEFORE they get to hit back. The weakest units will do damage to them? Nope, they will vaporize when they get into contact with a horde of these badboys.

Consider a unit of say 20 witch elves with cauldron support hitting either the WLs or SMs. Guess who strikes first? That's right, the init 6 ladies with poison and frenzy AND re-rolls to hit. They'll slaughter them. The survivors will take their toll but the blood will have been shed.

 

[The Sun King]

Since when was Witch Elves Core? Since when did we allow expensive support units to join this hypothetical fight(because in that case of theory hammer lets say those SM got a Frost Chicken backing them up)? Since when was 20 Witch Elves a weak unit? And yeah DE is OP on that we can agree, I fail to see how that counters my arguement?

 

[Tamodan Varison]

Also, those 20 WE will be shot to dead by the "HE core tax" but a Hydra will also do quite some damage

 

[xFallenx]

First, nothing happens in a vacuum, Elves in general NEVER hit anything without proper support, believing so is the quickest way to removing your toys from the table. I've also never played a game where two untouched (like/comparable) units went head to head till one of them evaporated without some sort of external support….maybe chaff, but that’s their role in the first place.

Believing that DE's are OP is so 7th ed. Strong? Absolutely. OP? Not even remotely. There are numerous tools available to everyone (providing they a) have access to new books & b) have access to the general items in the BRB.) for dealing with DE’s. Take a look at the world tourney scenes to see where they sit on average. I know that when I looked last I was pretty surprised (Wins for Bretonnia & Wood Elves come to mind).

This logic works for every army available. HE's are the flavour of the month, let them enjoy the neat tricks they've received for a bit as it won't be long before the counters are shared on the net. I'm going to reserve my judgment till I've played them a few times, what looks good on paper is only going to get them so far.

Defeatist attitudes concerning cheese are best left to dairy farmers.

 

[RobTheWise]

Nope, sorry to be obnoxious here, but referring to their low tougness and 5+ AS doesn't really nullify the fact that they will SLAUGHTER almost anything BEFORE they get to hit back. The weakest units will do damage to them? Nope, they will vaporize when they get into contact with a horde of these badboys.

Simply not true.

Chaos warriors, Wood elves , All dark elves, Storm Vermin off the top of my head will be symo (Dryads will actually hit first!)

consider 20 White Lions (7x3) vs 37 Dark Elf warriors (Probably the weakest in this example) in a horde. The Lions kill ~13 and the Delves kill ~8. Leaving a 12 vs 24 man match up. WL will kill about 7 vs the Core Dark Elves killing roughly 4 in return. Now we have 8 vs 17 and so on. The surviving unit will probably be to weakened to do much else all game.

20 White Lions would also get you 130 Slaves or Goblins! Who when put in a box and run against each other (reasonably assuming bsbs are nearby) the chaff units would still come out on top due to sheer number!

Now Chaos Warriors with halberds and Nurgle. 13 of these guys vs 20 lions fair fight? 20 attacks each Chaos kills 9 Lions kill 6. Leaving it at 7 vs 11 (14A vs 11A) Warriors kill 6 more lions kill 3. Finally 4 Warriors vs 5 Lions. Guess who wins?

21 Dryads, hitting 1st. Kill 5 Lions, losing 6 in return. Then Kill 5 more losing 4 in return. Dryads kill 4 more, Lions 2 and it's game over for lions . . . again.

43 Empire Halberdiers wont simply vaporize to 20 White Lions. The 30 remaining Halberds will take down 8 Lions! And so on and so on, you can do math.

How many more examples would you like!?

That said. Those are pretty even match ups, and so they should be, they points are the same and it always ends up in a tie or White Lions being dead. It is all oversimplified theory / math-hammer so there will be variation on both directions, but pure averages say White Lions are not over powered, or under-costed, if anything they are just about right.

So all is fairish right? No! All the above units facing the Lions are CORE! So while the Helf elites are tied up against the core unit enemy Treekin, Abombs, Skull Crushers, Trolls are trampling all over spears and archers.

That Chaos Warrior unit vs those match ups on the other hand absolutely destroys them all and come out pretty strong! Because they have durability as well as great offensive capability, something that no elf unit can really lay claim to.

Returning me to my original point. Core units can easily damage elf elites. I'm not saying they won't get chopped up in return, but we are looking at elite units that die almost as fast as skaven clan rats. That's before you hit em with magic missiles.