Dealing with 8th edition High Elves

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xFallenx said:
First, nothing happens in a vacuum, Elves in general NEVER hit anything without proper support, believing so is the quickest way to removing your toys from the table

Lol - literally the first thing I read after my post of even point matchups :redface:

What you say is true. But doing so does allow you to evaluate units against each other on a purely statistical level and it is a healthy exercise when you can work out quickly in your head if those Sword Masters require chariot support or not.
 
RobTheWise said:
What you say is true. But doing so does allow you to evaluate units against each other on a purely statistical level and it is a healthy exercise when you can work out quickly in your head if those Sword Masters require chariot support or not.

Stats are one thing and certainly have their place, but protracted fights are never in the interest of any elves & certainly never longer than one round. I say, if the chariot is spinning his wheels, get him in there in order to get both out for the next round. If the chariot can be used elsewhere (which is what I'm assuming you're alluding to) a quick one on one is probably in order.
 
Agree with Rob here 100%. My friends and I we're talking the other day about the same thing. Wanna take down WL? Bring as many attacks as possible. Horde out those Night Goblins, Horde out those skellies.
Just for fun Rob... How do the WL fare against an equally pointed Gor unit with AHW?
 
However it is slightly different if your opponent is taking 30-40 White Lions with some magical support, than straight up 20 bare naked White Lions.. I played a game with my new High Elves yesterday. Not a competitive list but I took 30 WL's with a BSB and a champ. 2 High mages effectively giving them at least a 4+ ward save per turn. Pretty fun combo with the new lore attribute. They ended the game with 22 models left and cleared two units of 21 Chaos Warriors. Seriously the lore attribute is the thing you guys should be fearing.
 
This new book is all about Synergy; not about throwing 20 white lions at 37 witch elves. I know no one would do that though lol. Sorry off topic, continue!
 
bigbadbat said:
Agree with Rob here 100%. My friends and I we're talking the other day about the same thing. Wanna take down WL? Bring as many attacks as possible. Horde out those Night Goblins, Horde out those skellies.
Just for fun Rob... How do the WL fare against an equally pointed Gor unit with AHW?

Equal points of Gor end with a pretty similar result. you get 32 Gor (8 points a gor with AHW if I remember correct, or is it 9?) Lions would kill 11 before even they attacked but the Gors would still take down 8 Lions in return assuming they pass Primal fury. Lions would kill 7 more after that leaving 14 Gor who would strike down another 6 Lions after 2 rounds of combat you got a 14 vs 6 matchup. (This was assuming lions are 7 wide, so not all of the Gor horde got attacks.

White Lions certainly wouldn't like being charged by 3 Tuskgor Chariots either :perv:
 
Abhorash. said:
However it is slightly different if your opponent is taking 30-40 White Lions with some magical support, than straight up 20 bare naked White Lions.. I played a game with my new High Elves yesterday. Not a competitive list but I took 30 WL's with a BSB and a champ. 2 High mages effectively giving them at least a 4+ ward save per turn. Pretty fun combo with the new lore attribute. They ended the game with 22 models left and cleared two units of 21 Chaos Warriors. Seriously the lore attribute is the thing you guys should be fearing.

The problem with High Magic is that once the unit hits combat most spells are either situational (drain magic, apotheosis) or direct damage, so can't be cast while the mage is fighting. So stacking up those wards can get a bit difficult. I think what you are getting at is the point xFallenx was making about how you can't really take a unit at face value and you are both totally right and I 100% agree with that. But likewise expect the enemy to be pulling of combos and sneaky tricks / spells of their own. White Lions and Swordmasters can both fall victim the Fearbombing quite easily. Esp if the general is not a Prince (very likely these days with all the new lord choices)
 
And we haven't even talked about shooting and Magic yet! One good gaze of naggash will ruin the day of a Swordmasters and White Lions as they don't get the parries or cloak bonus respectively.
 
Yes very true indeed. And I know you don't think that any good High Elf general would run 20 WL's into an enemy horde. Just not the ways of a High Elf. I am completely aware that 50 goblins would kill all my 14 Swordmasters; simple quantity over quality dilemma. I do agree that keeping that Ward save will be harder once into combat; but all you really need is a 3+ or a 4+ for one round to do some serious damage with a horde of Lions, without losing much in return. I dont know if a horde of Lions is popular anymore but I assume it will be with the new magic lore and the BoTWD. I would also be worried about 15 Silver helms with a Prince on a steed (or a noble) with the Star lance and the BoTWD. You could have that on top of the Lion-wardsave unit; ahhhh this new book is so juicy I love it.
 
Abhorash. said:
I would also be worried about 15 Silver helms with a Prince on a steed (or a noble) with the Star lance and the BoTWD. You could have that on top of the Lion-wardsave unit; ahhhh this new book is so juicy I love it.

This to me was the first thing to flag, probably because I'm immersed in a cavalry army build, and has caused me rethink certain aspects of my army to counter.... It's the organic aspect of this game(Ed?) that I love, beats the hell out of playing RISK.
 
Abhorash. said:
Yes very true indeed. And I know you don't think that any good High Elf general would run 20 WL's into an enemy horde. Just not the ways of a High Elf.

Well as a long running High Elf player I must agree :innocent:

Abhorash. said:
but all you really need is a 3+ or a 4+ for one round to do some serious damage with a horde of Lions,

But how do you pull this off? You either charge into combat and then realise you can only cast one or two of your spells because you are fighting (at least 1 of which your opponent will stop, probably Hand of Glory if you have it). Or you are not in combat and you cast a buncha spells and then have to rely on your opponent being a total idiot for charging 30 Lions with a 4++. Anyone who actually does this deserves to lose, or I would call shenanigans on the Helf player not making the Lore Attribute effect clear to his/her opponent

Abhorash. said:
I would also be worried about 15 Silver helms with a Prince on a steed (or a noble) with the Star lance and the BoTWD.

How do you get BoTWD in Silver Helms without a BSB? :tongue:
 
xFallenx said:
Abhorash. said:
I would also be worried about 15 Silver helms with a Prince on a steed (or a noble) with the Star lance and the BoTWD. You could have that on top of the Lion-wardsave unit; ahhhh this new book is so juicy I love it.

This to me was the first thing to flag, probably because I'm immersed in a cavalry army build, and has caused me rethink certain aspects of my army to counter.... It's the organic aspect of this game(Ed?) that I love, beats the hell out of playing RISK.

Sure does! I am glad that I am a VC player who only faces Skaven, WoC, DE's, Lizards and Ogres; because I do not want to deal with the Silver helm bus 2+ ward thing. However, as always, a blender lord could open a market of high elf smoothies from that. xD
 
The Sun King said:
Since when was Witch Elves Core? Since when did we allow allow expensive support units to join this hypothetical fight(because in that case of theory hammer lets say those SM got a Frost Chicken backing them up)? Since when was 20 Witch Elves a weak unit? And yeah DE is OP on that we can agree, I fail to see how that counters my arguement? :)

I knew you would be nit picky Sunny. :tongue: My point is that cheap (10 points each) witch elves will slaughter those elite 13 point High Elf lads. I guess that I wanted to stress that losing 'special' ASF was a big hit for the elves. Martial Prowess helped soften that blow. Made the WLs a bit better in my opinion but not the SMs. I still think SMs are great. I just would not wish to pit them against Witch elves or Black Guard or Nurgle Warriors of Chaos. They'll die before they do much damage.:grave:
 
Whats this about sword masters loosing ASF?

I have not had time to look at the book thoroughly but i seen some comments about ASF being defined in the high elf book and that it basically says that only other models can nullify this bonus. So basically having ASL from the double handed weapon will not nullify the ASF.... can anyone confirm the language in the book for me?
 
Yes, now it means that any High Elf model with a great weapon and ASF; will cancel out with the ASL from the great weapon, and they will strike at initiative. So now White Lions and Swordmasters do not get re-rolls on their attacks; nor do they always attack first. But they strike at Initiative 5 and they now can attack in an additional rank; which is the martial prowess special rule. However if you do not have a great weapon you get ASF and re-rolls.

In a unit of 21 or 24 (7x3) and (8x4) Swordmasters will actually do more damage with the extra rank of attacks and the loss of re-rolls. Depends on who you are fighting though.
 
I played against a fairly standard list today with my double mortis engine grave guard army.

It was an entertaining game for the most part. Some things that I took from it:

1) Sword masters are not very good. I made a positioning error that allowed 18 and a loremaster (with the banner of nerdrage) to hit a flank while being charged to the front by phoenix guard and the other flank with sisters of averlorn. I had VDM up and a 5++ regen save, but when the dust settled, he'd killed 10 grave guard (from all 3 units) and I'd wiped 13 models from various sources. So, after being triple ganked, I tied the combat. Admittedly, I was roid raging on buffs.

2) The loremaster is incredible. Expect to see him with a 4++ and the book of hoeth. He's a friggin super star. He basically dispells like a level 4 since he can modify low rolls, and he certainly casts like one. In the early game, you've got lots to dispel to keep your ethereals and chaff alive (see point 3) but once he gets in combat it's where he really really shines. Miasma, ice shard blizzard, earthblood and widform can swing combats to a startling degree (well, maybe not earthblood). Had he done his magic phase right, I'm pretty sure my grave guard would have been in for a rough time of it. He can't really fight that well, so chill out.

3) High elves are the kings of chaff. They have the ranged power to clear out just about anything, and since so much of it is magical (arrows or MMs) I was out 3 units of dogs and a units of bats almost before my models hit the table. Again, had he prioritized his spells properly, I'd be down a couple spirit hosts as well. Heck, he probably had enough firepower (assuming a decent PD pool) to drop a bunker of zombies in a single round of blasting. It was interesting and quite cool. Not sure why he didn't try and blast away the mortis engines though...

4) The icebird is cool, and in combat is really quite a factor. I like it from a rules stand point. However, it's all kinds of squishy. And I mean ALL kinds. It's not stubborn, it doesn't get rerolls, it's only ld 9 and it's only got a 5++. I know it's got a chance to be s7 or a 4++ or whatever, but the point is the HE player can't throw it around like a demon prince, and since it's such an important support piece, it can tell you a lot about where your opponent is putting emphasis strategically. It does not like ghouls or hexwraiths! Even normal wraiths give it the heebie-jeebies.

5) Fragile. Fragile fragile fragile. Let me say it again: fragile. You know how nobody takes skeletons because they don't hit that hard and are easy to squish? Well, these guys are as easy to kill as skeletons (almost). That should put lots of people's minds to rest! It's also why world dragon wasn't a problem for me; it was on the 18 swordmasters, and ghouls don't have magic attacks. 36 poisoned attacks later, there was a very lonely loremaster looking at a very angry vampire lord. Even white lions aren't what they were, mainly due to the loss of rerolls. Additionally, remember that they are only I5. The vampire lord goes first. With rerolls. And red fury. Will 28/40 still mess you up if they hit you? Sure. Will they be dang hard with the world dragon? Absolutely. Are they any worse than the rerolling blenders of the days of yore? I don't think so. I expect the ETC power lists will have as big a unit as allowed with world dragon and a caster with book of hoeth (possibly high magic) backed up by a unit of dragon princes and murder of phoenixes/bolt throwers. Another possibility is the mounted death star, in which case it's probably all 3 elven characters (prince, arch mage and BSB) in the world dragon pain train. I've not faced that yet, and I'm not sure what I'd do about it. Probably sacrifice the ghouls to get a good flank charge on the bus with grave guard/big vargheist unit or something like that.

All in all, it's a really interesting and well done book. I applaud GW! That's 2 in a row IMO, and another in the string of well written 8th ed books.
 
Good to hear from someone who as actually experienced playing against them.

One thing I would disagree with though is that the Frostheart isn't that squishy. Perhaps your opponent was playing it wrong but Frosty has a 5+/5++ as opposed to the Flamespyre with just a 5++. T6/5+/5++(4++ sometimes) ain't that squshy IMO esp when in combat he is effectively T7/4+/5++(4++).

Your general analyses that Helf infantry is very fragile is spot on. High Elves are low in number and low in toughness and armour. They HATE war of attrition. Even that Lore Master would have only been T3/5+/4++ with three wounds. That is ~300 points in the bag then you hit combat.
 
bigbadbat said:
Chariots don't scare me as much as a Dragon behind my lines on turn 1. 20" march then walk between worlds. Boom!

I don't think Walk Between Worlds would let it use it's flying move. If that is true, then it would be unable to go through your units.

Not 100% on this, but worth mentioning.
 
RobTheWise said:
bigbadbat said:
Chariots don't scare me as much as a Dragon behind my lines on turn 1. 20" march then walk between worlds. Boom!

I don't think Walk Between Worlds would let it use it's flying move. If that is true, then it would be unable to go through your units.

Not 100% on this, but worth mentioning.

Walk Between Worlds isn't a "movement" action, it's just straight up 20" on it's own, iirc. I played my friend the other night, and had looked over his book a few times. I'm fairly sure it's a set value, not an additional move. Although perhaps it has two casting values to pick how far they can move? Or was it, Ethereal OR (AND if you higher cast it) Move 20"?

I did find out however, while playing him, that the Lore Attribute last Until Next Magic phase (Caster's), I had not realized that previously, I thought it was permanent :Vampire1: I suppose it doesn't change terribly much, but good to know!
 

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