Dealing with 8th edition High Elves

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najo said:
Here is why the banner is not broken.

1) elves are easy to kill. They are T3. The only real anvil in the army is the frostheart phoenix and it can't be given ranks/ horded up. Phoenix guard is a soft anvil because of their 4+ ward, but eventually they die too.

Nothing with a 2+ ward save is easy to kill.

Also, it depends on whether you're attacking them at range or in combat. If you only have combat stuff, then your unit first has to survive all the elf attacks, and then do enough damage back to win combat, or at least not lose it too badly.


2) most anvils are T5 or higher, or have a 2+ armor save along with some staying power (IE wounds, T4, etc). Plaugebearers with full regeneration, deep enough ranks and support from lore attribute of nurgle can almost be called an anvil. Elves do not really have a unit that can do this. Maybe dragon princes, but their vulnerable to a number of anti-armor options and small in number.

T5 can be mitigated by strength-improving weapons, poison, rerolls to-wound, buffs that increase strength, hexes that reduce enemy toughness etc.

Likewise, armour is easily weakened, and even 1-2pts of reduction make it far less painful to face.

Ward saves are mitigated by... virtually nothing. Strength doesn't matter, Armour Piercing doesn't matter, there are no hexes that reduce ward saves, nor any buffs that allow a unit to reduce enemy ward saves.

If the banner gave the unit T5, or a 2+ armour save, I'd have no problem with it. Instead, it gives them the best save in the game, and the only one that's impossible to mitigate.


3) banner of the world dragon shifts the high T roll to the ward save roll. So instead of being a 4+ to hit, 6+ to wound and a 4+ save (like beasts of nurgle or crypt horrors often are), the elf unit is going to be 4+ to hit, 4 or 3+ to wound and then a 2+ to save against magic attacks and spells.

See above - there are many ways to mitigate high toughness, but virtually nothing that can be done about a 2+ ward.


4) the high elf unit carrying this banner is completely vulnerable to most armies attacks. The banner does nothing for them than mitigate miscast damage. If their wizard is bunkering in the unit, now the unit is vulnerable to getting him killed if it engages, this means the banner involves risk when used in both an assaulting unit and a bunkering unit.

Surely you're not going to be bunkering a mage in that unit unless you're against daemons though?

In any case, there are a lot of banners that aren't always useful - but most of them do a hell of a lot less than the banner of the world dragon, and cost a lot more.


5) the unit is completely vulnerable to hexes and test based spells. It is completely vulnerable to flanks and rear charges. If engaged on two or more fronts, that unit can't bring its martial prowess to bear. If disrupted, that unit has lost most of its fighting power--no ranks fighting, no bonus.

Well, I think the definition of 'vulnerable' is arguable. I mean, half of the current test-or-die revolve around initiative tests, so the unit's "vulnerability" is looking somewhat dodgy at this point.

Furthermore, it's no more vulnerable than it would be without the banner. It's not like the banner imposes a penalty to characteristic tests or any such. Nor is there anything the unit could take instead to mitigate such risks - the world dragon banner is the absolute best it can get for defence.


All this banner does is make that unit an anvil against daemons and magic wielding characters. To defeat it, just bookend the unit with two of the heavier choices and throw a hex on it, it should collapse in one turn and you chase it down. Its not obvious or point and click, but that unit is killable.

It depends what you have available in your army. What if your "heavy" units have magic attacks, or can't actually beat the banner unit in combat? Elves might have low toughness, but they're striking before you, fight in an extra rank and will almost always have rerolls to hit.

Also, why do you keep calling it an anvil? If the banner is put on an offensive unit e.g. Dragon Princes, they don't suddenly become an anvil - they're still a hammer unit that now had ridiculous defence against damaging spells, magic shooting attacks and magic combat attacks.

Here's the thing - I'm not saying that the BotWD is unbeatable or an auto-loss for us, or any such.

However, I don't understand why people are so desperate to defend it as somehow not being overpowered, despite all evidence to the contrary.
 
Its not overpowered against 70% of the units its useless against and if you out maneuvered the unit with it, the unit is going down. Sure, if you run head long into the unit and let the elves strike first in three ranks, and only counting on your magic attacks to kill the elf unit its amazingly powerful.

You hit that unit in a flank with something that hurts the elves, and they are going down.

Now, if the elf unit had a sea helm...

which, in my opinion, the sea helm is better and more powerful than the BotWD. And I'm referring to it as an anvil because that is what it allows the elf unit to do against daemons and magic weapon characters, suck up damage.
 
najo said:
Its not overpowered against 70% of the units its useless against

Perhaps, but then can those remaining units actually win against the banner unit?

najo said:
Now, if the elf unit had a sea helm...

which, in my opinion, the sea helm is better and more powerful than the BotWD.

Why?
 
I agree with vipoid here... There are plenty of evidence to suggest that the banner is broken. The rest of us pays 15p to gain mr1 this banner gets mr5 for 50p! (Rmember how people cried about our drakenhoff for 125p?) and not only that, it works against magic attacks as well which makes characters useless unless you tailor your army against HE. I would hate to play demons against such an item and I dont know what they were thinking when they made it.
 
I'm going to shamelessly pull a quote from myself on another thread on the BotwD

What do you do against Gutstars? avoid them and kill everything else with your Vampire Lord. What do you do against Chosen stars? avoid them and kill everything else with your Vampire Lord. What do you do against big scary units that you already know before the game starts that you aren't going to get any VPs out of them (a concept not lost on most armies) . . . AVOID THEM AND KILL EVERYTHING ELSE WITH YOUR VAMPIRE LORD! Vampire3 So why is implementing the same strategy against this unit (albeit for a different reason) any different to those scenarios that you may well have played, adapted to and even beaten on multiple occasions?

Edit: If anything the "World Dragon Star???" Has a weakness in that many many units, simply won't care about it. It also doesn't protect them from Hexs, and you can still buff your own units. And it certainly doesn't protect them from Dwellers (I'm thinking in a more general gaming sense now). I think too many people are thinking about army composition over play style. We can beat this unit the same way we beat any other deathstar we face . . . . avoid them and kill everything else with your Vampire Lord :-D

Only, after having actually played against the unit, I recon we CAN take them in combat. It was a two stage assault, with the first wave being ghouls and the second being my Grave Guard horde, but hell it went down and thanks to Invocation of Nehek I came out relatively alright.
 
I understand the immediate, knee jerk reaction to want to scream overpowered about this banner, especially for daemons. But what I don't get, most of our army handles elves and elves with this banner fine. This banner doesn't protect the unit from our wights, crypt horrors, vsrghiests, ghouls. Most of our units tear high elves up.

Second, comparing the banner to lichebone pennant is apples to oranges. Each army has access to cheaper magic items that are exclusive to their race. Magic items in the brb are balanced for all armies. BotWD can only be used by the high elves.

Johnny sums up what the rest of us are saying, change your play style against it. Its not broken.

Sidenote, I played a game against nurgle daemons tonight. The soul grinder was -1 to hit and nearly everything in my army only wounded it on a 6. Armies with T7 or 8 units are similar to this banner. Most units can only wound them on a 6. I don't see how its any different than a 2+ ward save against magical attacks or spells.
 
I dont think its all that bad. Just know your enemy and keep in mind that its out there. Have ways to test for it before committing your VL to combat with it. Bound items, screams, and cheap missile spells work good for this.
 
Valle said:
I agree with vipoid here... There are plenty of evidence to suggest that the banner is broken. The rest of us pays 15p to gain mr1 this banner gets mr5 for 50p! (Rmember how people cried about our drakenhoff for 125p?) and not only that, it works against magic attacks as well which makes characters useless unless you tailor your army against HE. I would hate to play demons against such an item and I dont know what they were thinking when they made it.

Valle makes a pretty good point when compared to those other items. What really makes this Banner a no-brainer in HE armies is how it essentially makes a joined mage immune to almost all the ill-effects for a miscast except 2-4. But as far as broken...no more broken than for instance the Ogre's Hellheart. WoC's Soulfeeder ability. And a number of other items that are just too good for their points.

My friends and I are fielding the banner in Dragon Prince units that we run like a Bretonnian lance. Mage in the middle. Fight in 3 ranks. So a nice 2+ armor save. A 2+ ward save against flaming attacks and a 2+ ward save against magic. Not bad. ;)
 
Yorga said:
Valle said:
I agree with vipoid here... There are plenty of evidence to suggest that the banner is broken. The rest of us pays 15p to gain mr1 this banner gets mr5 for 50p! (Rmember how people cried about our drakenhoff for 125p?) and not only that, it works against magic attacks as well which makes characters useless unless you tailor your army against HE. I would hate to play demons against such an item and I dont know what they were thinking when they made it.

Valle makes a pretty good point when compared to those other items. What really makes this Banner a no-brainer in HE armies is how it essentially makes a joined mage immune to almost all the ill-effects for a miscast except 2-4. But as far as broken...no more broken than for instance the Ogre's Hellheart. WoC's Soulfeeder ability. And a number of other items that are just too good for their points.

My friends and I are fielding the banner in Dragon Prince units that we run like a Bretonnian lance. Mage in the middle. Fight in 3 ranks. So a nice 2+ armor save. A 2+ ward save against flaming attacks and a 2+ ward save against magic. Not bad. ;)

True... About the hellheart and you might even say the same about our TG although I would argue that both our TG and soulfeeder has more drawbacks than this banner which have none at all... Btw, I would hate to face that unit of DP, seems like they dont have allot to fear besides warmachines.
 
Yorga said:
What really makes this Banner a no-brainer in HE armies is how it essentially makes a joined mage immune to almost all the ill-effects for a miscast except 2-4.

Not really, you can still lose d3 levels, damage other power dice generating models on the table and lose a lot of power dice, crippling your magic phase. I don't consider losing a wound on a mage a big deal when miscasting, it's when he takes half a unit with him that a single tear rolls down my cheek - and in that respect, BotwD is awesome.
 
RobTheWise said:
Yorga said:
What really makes this Banner a no-brainer in HE armies is how it essentially makes a joined mage immune to almost all the ill-effects for a miscast except 2-4.

Not really, you can still lose d3 levels, damage other power dice generating models on the table and lose a lot of power dice, crippling your magic phase. I don't consider losing a wound on a mage a big deal when miscasting, it's when he takes half a unit with him that a single tear rolls down my cheek - and in that respect, BotwD is awesome.

Real vampire generals dont cry! Our tear channels dried up back in 6th ed.
 
I agree its in a similar vein to hell heart, soulfeeder etc. Where I don't think its as powerful as everyone keeps saying is that it provides zero protection against mundane attacks. It is not a no-brainer to throw on a dragon prince or white lion unit. There are other banners that add to their primary functions, and in using those banners make high elf units better at their main role. Protection from magic isn't so needed by a unit that can be engaged by round 2.
 
najo said:
I agree its in a similar vein to hell heart, soulfeeder etc. Where I don't think its as powerful as everyone keeps saying is that it provides zero protection against mundane attacks. It is not a no-brainer to throw on a dragon prince or white lion unit. There are other banners that add to their primary functions, and in using those banners make high elf units better at their main role. Protection from magic isn't so needed by a unit that can be engaged by round 2.

Ofcourse it dosnt give protection against mundane attacks. If it did the unit carrying it would be indestructable. Its like saying that the TG's scream aint that good because it still allows ward and regen saves. I really dont understand this need to try and make this banner look like just another run of the mill item, when in reality its far from it. Even if you are a huge HE fan, you should still be able to acknowledge the fact that this item is way to good for its cost.

Im not saying that HE as a whole are OP or that we cant beat them (Demons might say that) just because of that item. But I do wish that they would just make an allround better balance instead of giving some armies rediculous items, such as the hellheart and now this banner.
 

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