Dealing with Banner of the World Dragon Deathstar
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I'm not overly worried about this banner tbh. Yes it's crazy good/broken for it's cost, but we can probably either lock it down or even kill it.
Etheral Units can't deal with it - no big issue imo, there are plenty of things that our ghosts can't deal with already.
Terrorgheists shouldn't focus on mere infantry. Go after the phoenixs/dragons/cavalry/giffons, etc.
If you don't want to redirect/roadbump it forever with zombies/giant bats, etc, a combined charge should probably do the trick: just make sure you flank/rear it.
Crypt Horrors, Ghouls and Graveguards can probably give WL/SM-hordes a run for their money. Yes, we will suffer wounds, but so will they - and they can't resurrect in the same fashion as we can.
A WL/SM horde will probably contain at least 40 model's, maybe even 50 so they can sustain some casualties before they start loosing attacks: this is already 600-730 pts (Full Command and Banner-cost included), before you start adding characters.
How would a Ghoul-horde (50+ strong) manage this unit? How would it manage if you gave the Ghouls reroll to hit and/or to-wound? Add 6-8 Crypt Horros in the rear/flank and call it a day.
Etheral Units can't deal with it - no big issue imo, there are plenty of things that our ghosts can't deal with already.
Terrorgheists shouldn't focus on mere infantry. Go after the phoenixs/dragons/cavalry/giffons, etc.
If you don't want to redirect/roadbump it forever with zombies/giant bats, etc, a combined charge should probably do the trick: just make sure you flank/rear it.
Crypt Horrors, Ghouls and Graveguards can probably give WL/SM-hordes a run for their money. Yes, we will suffer wounds, but so will they - and they can't resurrect in the same fashion as we can.
A WL/SM horde will probably contain at least 40 model's, maybe even 50 so they can sustain some casualties before they start loosing attacks: this is already 600-730 pts (Full Command and Banner-cost included), before you start adding characters.
How would a Ghoul-horde (50+ strong) manage this unit? How would it manage if you gave the Ghouls reroll to hit and/or to-wound? Add 6-8 Crypt Horros in the rear/flank and call it a day.
Sorry to break this to you Minsc but your suggested combined charge would explode in a gush of blood(read: Unstable). 
40* Attacks hitting on 3's = 26,6 hits wounding on 2's = 22 wounds. No saves.
18 Ghouls hit back with 28 attacks hitting on 4's = 6 hits and 3 poison wounds. 6 hits wounding on 4+ = 3 wounds. 1 save = 4 wounds.
6 Crypthorrors attack with 18 attacks hitting on 4's = 6 hits and 3 poison wounds. 6 hits wounding on 3+ = 4 wounds. 1 save = 6 wounds.
3 Stomps. 2 wounds, not saves if we're optimistic.
CR: VC: 15(12 wounds, 1 flank, 1 charge, 1 rank)
HE: 26(22 wounds, 3 ranks, 1 banner)
The Ghouls crumble 11 = 7 remaining Ghouls
The CH crumble 11 = 2½ remaining CH
*For the sake of easiness I omitted that 3 WL's had to attack the CH but it shouldn't do much of a difference.
40* Attacks hitting on 3's = 26,6 hits wounding on 2's = 22 wounds. No saves.
18 Ghouls hit back with 28 attacks hitting on 4's = 6 hits and 3 poison wounds. 6 hits wounding on 4+ = 3 wounds. 1 save = 4 wounds.
6 Crypthorrors attack with 18 attacks hitting on 4's = 6 hits and 3 poison wounds. 6 hits wounding on 3+ = 4 wounds. 1 save = 6 wounds.
3 Stomps. 2 wounds, not saves if we're optimistic.
CR: VC: 15(12 wounds, 1 flank, 1 charge, 1 rank)
HE: 26(22 wounds, 3 ranks, 1 banner)
The Ghouls crumble 11 = 7 remaining Ghouls
The CH crumble 11 = 2½ remaining CH
*For the sake of easiness I omitted that 3 WL's had to attack the CH but it shouldn't do much of a difference.
Nagashizzar
Vargheist
The Sun King said:
I'm confused :|
28 attacks hitting on 4s means at least 14 hits even without poison no?
And 18 Ghouls would make 36 attacks no?
Nagashizzar said:
I was going to point that out but it doesn't change the outcome significantly enough to really matter, everything is still dead next turn.
and no, 18 ghouls still only means 28 attacks because only the front rand gets to attack with more than 1 attack
Check this combo out.
Alleriele gives the unit she's in a 5+ ward vs. non-magical attacks.
Banner of World Dragon gives 2+ ward vs. magical attacks.
The lore attribute for High Magic says everytime you successful cast a spell from that lore, you improve your unit's ward by +1 up to 3++.
Do you seeee?
Alleriele gives the unit she's in a 5+ ward vs. non-magical attacks.
Banner of World Dragon gives 2+ ward vs. magical attacks.
The lore attribute for High Magic says everytime you successful cast a spell from that lore, you improve your unit's ward by +1 up to 3++.
Do you seeee?
HERO said:
Remind me how Deathstaring is a bad idea?
It's a good thing GW doesn't support their game on events (Like say, MtG does), because they would have a hard time justifying/explaining all the new rules they release..
Also, HERO, off topic from the banner, but, do you happen to know how the HE lore Attribute works with Magic Resist? Because both improve a save, but one of them is limited to improving it to a 3++? Would you just assume the Magic Resist comes after the lore attribute had been applied?
Man, VC really do get the shaft with this new stuff though, without a cannon, and having so many strengths of their army based on magic attacks (Screams/Magic in general, plus hero/lords usually take magic gear). Basically it just sucks for anyone without mundane ranged to soften the unit up :zombie: It's certainly gonna be "fun" to deal with though.
I vote we just bow down the the HE overlords before they get angry.
I did say 50 Ghouls for a reason. :tongue:
WL:
- 38 attacks against the Ghouls, 25,33 hits, ~21 wounds.
- 3 attacks against the CH, 2 hits, 1,33 wounds, ~1 wound after regen.
29 Ghouls retaliate: 39 attacks, (6 poison), 14 hits, 7(+6) wounds, 9 dead after armour.
6 CH retaliate: 18 attacks, (3 poison), 6 hits, 4(+3) wounds, 6 dead after armour. Stomps kill another 2 elves.
WL: 22 wounds dealt, 3 ranks, banner.
VC: 17 wounds dealt, 3 ranks, charge, flank.
We loose by 4 = 25 Ghouls and 5 (one with 1 wound) CH left. 25 WL left (and he cant combat reform.)
Next turn:
WL:
- 24 attacks against the Ghouls, 16 hits, 13,33 ~ 13 wounds.
- 2 attacks against the CH: 1,33 hits, 0,88 wounds, 0,6 ~1 wound after regen.
18 Ghouls retaliate: 28 attacks, (5 poison), 11,5 hits, 10,75 wounds, 7 dead after armoue.
4 CH retaliate: 12 attacks, (2 poison), 4 hits, 4,66 wounds, 4 dead after saves. Stomps kills 2 more elves.
WL: 14 wounds dealt, 1 rank (15 WL left), standard.
VC: 13 wounds dealt, 1 rank (16 ghouls left), flank.
We loose by 1 = 17 Ghouls, 4 CH (one with 2 wound) left. 12 WL left.
And now it's VC's turn with our magic phase....
Obviously this is never how this fight would end, since fights usually don't happen in a vacuum.
He will probably have afew characters (BSB and perhaps a mage and/or a anointed) in the unit, we will probably have a mortis engine close by. (A ME would have a -big- impact here.)
However - if you follow the math, this isn't really such a bad idéa as it initially sounds like.
My point is: VC can deal with this unit, one way or another.
WL:
- 38 attacks against the Ghouls, 25,33 hits, ~21 wounds.
- 3 attacks against the CH, 2 hits, 1,33 wounds, ~1 wound after regen.
29 Ghouls retaliate: 39 attacks, (6 poison), 14 hits, 7(+6) wounds, 9 dead after armour.
6 CH retaliate: 18 attacks, (3 poison), 6 hits, 4(+3) wounds, 6 dead after armour. Stomps kill another 2 elves.
WL: 22 wounds dealt, 3 ranks, banner.
VC: 17 wounds dealt, 3 ranks, charge, flank.
We loose by 4 = 25 Ghouls and 5 (one with 1 wound) CH left. 25 WL left (and he cant combat reform.)
Next turn:
WL:
- 24 attacks against the Ghouls, 16 hits, 13,33 ~ 13 wounds.
- 2 attacks against the CH: 1,33 hits, 0,88 wounds, 0,6 ~1 wound after regen.
18 Ghouls retaliate: 28 attacks, (5 poison), 11,5 hits, 10,75 wounds, 7 dead after armoue.
4 CH retaliate: 12 attacks, (2 poison), 4 hits, 4,66 wounds, 4 dead after saves. Stomps kills 2 more elves.
WL: 14 wounds dealt, 1 rank (15 WL left), standard.
VC: 13 wounds dealt, 1 rank (16 ghouls left), flank.
We loose by 1 = 17 Ghouls, 4 CH (one with 2 wound) left. 12 WL left.
And now it's VC's turn with our magic phase....
Obviously this is never how this fight would end, since fights usually don't happen in a vacuum.
He will probably have afew characters (BSB and perhaps a mage and/or a anointed) in the unit, we will probably have a mortis engine close by. (A ME would have a -big- impact here.)
However - if you follow the math, this isn't really such a bad idéa as it initially sounds like.
My point is: VC can deal with this unit, one way or another.
Minsc said:
Yeah, I'm not a tactically genius, but I hear armor is all the rage right now; Isn't taking 50~ Ghouls bad vs that set up?
I mean I guess if that's all your core to fill min, but don't we normally take other things? Like.. Wolves, or zombie bunkers?
Doesn't that make gearing into a sub-par non-magic poo-flinging fest seem kinda silly, as per the suggestion for us to bend over backwards with a non-magic item Vamp just to deal damage to them avoiding the 2++?
I mean, if taking a vamp with no Magic Weapon is a bad idea, I don't see how warping our core choices against them is any more appealing. Regardless of what we can do against them, why? Why do we have to bend over backwards and through our own legs to avoid something that is essentially going to be in every HE army; Possibly even as a DeathStar which further puts us against the wall (Save for picking off what ever points they didn't invest into the DeathStar and avoiding it, like Johnny seems to think the key to victory will be, which also seems bad, but I understand DeathStars have existed before, and have been ignored/not-meta changing).
The banner is still gonna hurt no matter which way we look at it. On the plus side, the unit with this banner probably won't have the Flaming Banner, so.. we can regen our hearts out against them
I do think CH are the best choice though, but they'll have to find their way into flank/rear. But the Regen, plus the ability to actually call them back with IoN (Versus a lot of our more powerful choices which do not Rez as cleanly).
Tawg said:Minsc said:I did say 50 Ghouls for a reason. :tongue:
On the plus side, the unit with this banner probably won't have the Flaming Banner, so.. we can regen our hearts out against them
This is true... Bat Swarms and Crypt Horrors would wreck horded bannered SMs or WLs
Plus, let go the spell that takes away magic items off the Blender Lord... oh no, you took away my ogre blade! Now I only get to wound you on 2s and you don't get a 2+ ward... thanks!
eggspr said:Tawg said:On the plus side, the unit with this banner probably won't have the Flaming Banner, so.. we can regen our hearts out against them
This is true... Bat Swarms and Crypt Horrors would wreck horded bannered SMs or WLs
Plus, let go the spell that takes away magic items off the Blender Lord... oh no, you took away my ogre blade! Now I only get to wound you on 2s and you don't get a 2+ ward... thanks!
Too bad that is a random destroy :ghost: Plus, I think the HE players will figure out that doing something like that would be detrimental to themselves, and stop very quickly
Do any Elves come with KB? Like their special/troops? I dunno if SM/WL do, don't know their rules.
My way of dealing with this unit would be the coven throne and -5 Ld combo. Presuming we are both at max Ld, then with the modifier you would only have to roll 1 higher than the other player to get them to attack their own unit. Otherwise, it's also possible to just Scream (sorry, just realized, magic attacks) (Or even possibly Terror) them off the board.
Sorry for my bad math last night, to be fair it was 3 o'clock in the morning Also I agree with Tawg, who would field 50 ghouls in the current meta? But hey that might change with HE being the new rage and all.
@Eggie: Yeah Bat Swarms do look more viable now, I mean - instead of doing weird stuff like having 50 ghouls in a unit you could just throw a couple of this rather cheap unit in the list alongside your usual setup and have a counter SM and WL... but then again it's pretty easy to shoot those bats down with magic.
Also I agree with Tawg, who would field 50 ghouls in the current meta? But hey that might change with HE being the new rage and all.@Eggie: Yeah Bat Swarms do look more viable now, I mean - instead of doing weird stuff like having 50 ghouls in a unit you could just throw a couple of this rather cheap unit in the list alongside your usual setup and have a counter SM and WL... but then again it's pretty easy to shoot those bats down with magic.
It just seems like an odd ability. I mean it completely upsets the balance of magical attacks - now they are a liability more than a boost which means that units that have magical attacks pay extra for something that's bad for them?
The Sun King said:
I think it's also the fact that it's so cheap. I mean, I could understand it more if it was 75 or 100pts (and so required a BSB to carry it). However, to have a 50pt item flip the meta on its head seems like terrible design.
Also, I find it sad that the 125pt Drakenhof banner was removed because 4+ regeneration for an entire unit was too powerful... yet a 2+ ward for an entire unit vs magic, magic attacks and magic weapons is apparently fine. :slapface:
I read you Vipoid, the big difference with the drakenhoff banner is that Regeneration is an incorporated mechanic in the game and there is a strong and easy counter to it... this doesn't seem to be the case with Banner of the World Dragon.
It might just be a bound spell, or be like the banner last edition, meaning you're not allowed to buff that unit with friendly spells. Or it will just be one of those "all friendly models in base contact with the bearer of this item" things. Otherwise, Miasma spam the movement of that unit down to 1. (Or their init and then Pit of Shades/Purple Sun them)
Minsc said:I did say 50 Ghouls for a reason. :tongue:
WL:
- 38 attacks against the Ghouls, 25,33 hits, ~21 wounds.
- 3 attacks against the CH, 2 hits, 1,33 wounds, ~1 wound after regen.
29 Ghouls retaliate: 39 attacks, (6 poison), 14 hits, 7(+6) wounds, 9 dead after armour.
6 CH retaliate: 18 attacks, (3 poison), 6 hits, 4(+3) wounds, 6 dead after armour. Stomps kill another 2 elves.
WL: 22 wounds dealt, 3 ranks, banner.
VC: 17 wounds dealt, 3 ranks, charge, flank.
We loose by 4 = 25 Ghouls and 5 (one with 1 wound) CH left. 25 WL left (and he cant combat reform.)
Next turn:
WL:
- 24 attacks against the Ghouls, 16 hits, 13,33 ~ 13 wounds.
- 2 attacks against the CH: 1,33 hits, 0,88 wounds, 0,6 ~1 wound after regen.
18 Ghouls retaliate: 28 attacks, (5 poison), 11,5 hits, 10,75 wounds, 7 dead after armoue.
4 CH retaliate: 12 attacks, (2 poison), 4 hits, 4,66 wounds, 4 dead after saves. Stomps kills 2 more elves.
WL: 14 wounds dealt, 1 rank (15 WL left), standard.
VC: 13 wounds dealt, 1 rank (16 ghouls left), flank.
We loose by 1 = 17 Ghouls, 4 CH (one with 2 wound) left. 12 WL left.
And now it's VC's turn with our magic phase....
Obviously this is never how this fight would end, since fights usually don't happen in a vacuum.
He will probably have afew characters (BSB and perhaps a mage and/or a anointed) in the unit, we will probably have a mortis engine close by. (A ME would have a -big- impact here.)
However - if you follow the math, this isn't really such a bad idéa as it initially sounds like.
My point is: VC can deal with this unit, one way or another.
Of course it's possible for us to kill this unit but catching someone in the flank isn't always that easy. Good generals will of course be wary of this and it is often preventable.
And even if you can buff and raise in our magic phase you can't really forget that HE has a magic phase too... often a more powerful one than we do.
Talking about raising like it's free in discussions like this always bugs me. Sure we can raise or models back in our magic phase but they can just as easily destroy them in theirs. Also since raise isn't spammable anymore it's usually possible to dispell the ones that matter.