You've also spent around 200 pts more than the HE player and assumed you could get a flank charge against a highly mobile army 
Dealing with Banner of the World Dragon Deathstar
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Maybe it's time to bring out the corpse carts and bat swarms
I know it's a bit drastic but your monstrous unit of zombies is now attacking first and white lions would now be last if it works that asf plus great weapon and then asl actually equals asl
I know it's a bit drastic but your monstrous unit of zombies is now attacking first and white lions would now be last if it works that asf plus great weapon and then asl actually equals asl
The Sun King said:
Oh, I quite agree - that was my point. The Drakenhof Banner was apparently too strong to be kept, yet it cost 2.5x as much as the Banner of the World Dragon and, at best, provided an additional 4+ save. There was still an easily-obtainable counter in the form of flaming attacks or killing blow and, even if you didn't have either, it was still only 4+.
The HE one is a 2+ save (which is a massive difference), and works against things that are supposed to be an advantage to have.
It takes away the vampire lord/wraith crutch, so I really like it and hope it doesn't get comped. Use your units for something other than wound counters.
As for me, I'd put vargheists into one flank and skeletons/ghouls/varghulf/hexwraiths (conditional) into the front. Lions don't get re-rolls any more, so they are much more manageable. Hammer one flank and anvil characters so they can't make way.
As for me, I'd put vargheists into one flank and skeletons/ghouls/varghulf/hexwraiths (conditional) into the front. Lions don't get re-rolls any more, so they are much more manageable. Hammer one flank and anvil characters so they can't make way.
Nagashizzar
Vargheist
But wait.. it gets better! :mad2:
Alarielle in a unit of 39 Whites Lions with the Banner of the World Dragon.
She give a 5+ ward save to the units for non-magical attack which can easily be 3+ with two successfull casts with the Hight Magic lore attribute.
so the unit have a 3+ vs non-magical and a 2+ vs magical!
Alarielle in a unit of 39 Whites Lions with the Banner of the World Dragon.
She give a 5+ ward save to the units for non-magical attack which can easily be 3+ with two successfull casts with the Hight Magic lore attribute.
so the unit have a 3+ vs non-magical and a 2+ vs magical!
Just trying point out this book is not the end of warhammer its just going to be a little different.
HERO said:
Not worried about it. We generally don't play with special characters and they aren't allowed in our Tournaments. That is why Teclis has never been an issue. But if this World Banner proves to be too OP in Tournament Organizer minds, they'll ban it like they did the Book of Hoeth from 7th edition HE. Matt Ward is a tool!
A reasonable power would have been to confer a 4+ ward save with that banner. 2+ is just insanely too good for it's cost.
Johnny-Crass said:
I have a question for you Johnny: While this certainly is something you can work around, or find solutions to, or even isn't overpowered vs certain armies (I'm sure Empire gives no shit for instance), can you honestly tell me you don't think this is straight up poor design?
I honestly just think GW doesn't understand game design at all. They seriously just let one person do what they want with a book, no oversight, no conferring with the other books/writers to keep things in line or on the same page.
That said, I do enjoy the fact that we would potentially be combating such a unit with things like Hordes of Skeletons (Backed by IoN, or they'll die way too fast), or other more.. "Throw away" choices that we would normally have not considered, so that is cool, and I hope, I seriously hope, that we see people using units that previously got ignored. Black Coach seems like a fairly decent idea here, it's got a good save, 4++ at least, small frontage and high T; As long as you can disrupt them from the side to make sure their static CR isn't exploding the BC, I think it could put in some work, plus it's not magical despite being a Carin Wraith (Until it siphons too much dice and gains Ethereal overall).
But that banner is seriously just retard shit, provided it is seriously not restricted, or inhibited in some way? That is just the stupidest fucking item I've ever seen, next to maybe, shunting a miscast to the opponent, which I prefer slightly just because it's once use only.
The main problem I see here is that you can't rely on the usual "Kill the BSB" strategy that you find with some of the other banners. for about 80+ points I'd have absolutely no problems facing an army with this banner, but the fact that you don't have to buy a character separately to hold this is really what breaks it. But the thing that surprises me the most is this drastic shift in terms of GW balancing. We saw in the newer books how these spells that "ignore saves of any kind" started dissapearing and some uber items biting the dust as well. But to see high elves return with this kind of cheese just makes no sense to me at all. That is...
Unless Johnny is just trolling us all. (Don't kill me!)
Unless Johnny is just trolling us all. (Don't kill me!)
I honestly see no harm in one unit gaining a solid save considering this book has no monsterous cav. Now yes some books will suffer grestly but others will just laugh this silly item off. You all seem to forget that there sre a slew of magic items that seem broken against some armies and do nothing against ithers (hellheart storm banner deathmask)
The Sun King said:You've also spent around 200 pts more than the HE player and assumed you could get a flank charge against a highly mobile army
Well, 128 pts more.
(600 vs 500+228)
Fights don't happen in a vacuum though, just pointing out that we really aren't as gimped by this standard that some thinks.
I'm starting to agree with Tawg - without wanting to feel this way about GW, I can't believe some of the power creep lately. The banner is a great example. For some reason HEs get to put this on a unit. Arguably too strong and doesn't have the normal weaknesses a high-cost banner has (being on a hero). That's a huge benefit unique to this army.
Skullcrushers being insanely survivable and offensive, the entire Demon Prince healing mechanics + unbreakable, now high elves general ward-save-everything. The early books (including us) have a real lack of power and ability to counter this. They seem to be designing in the FAQs, reverting things like crumble+overrun for mysterious reasons and with a lack of understanding about army balance. Do VC tarpits need to be nerfed? Was that OP? GW have you seen what demon princes & skullcrushers are doing to the game?
I just dont think GW realizes this is a game of rock-paper-scissors. It seems like each unit is designed in a bubble without a good sense for the impact on other armies and overall balance.
Along that note: Have you guys seen that Unmaking spell? 24'' range - blow up a magic item on a 2+. Casts on a 13 or something... we're going to be bringing our dispel scrolls just to use on this. It's pretty intense. Especially with mages carrying around the new book of Hoeth. Casts on an 8 every turn blowing up magic items. Sweet god - that's not a short range spell... its going to be nasty awful gun line tactics here. *shudder*
-aki
Skullcrushers being insanely survivable and offensive, the entire Demon Prince healing mechanics + unbreakable, now high elves general ward-save-everything. The early books (including us) have a real lack of power and ability to counter this. They seem to be designing in the FAQs, reverting things like crumble+overrun for mysterious reasons and with a lack of understanding about army balance. Do VC tarpits need to be nerfed? Was that OP? GW have you seen what demon princes & skullcrushers are doing to the game?
I just dont think GW realizes this is a game of rock-paper-scissors. It seems like each unit is designed in a bubble without a good sense for the impact on other armies and overall balance.
Along that note: Have you guys seen that Unmaking spell? 24'' range - blow up a magic item on a 2+. Casts on a 13 or something... we're going to be bringing our dispel scrolls just to use on this. It's pretty intense. Especially with mages carrying around the new book of Hoeth. Casts on an 8 every turn blowing up magic items. Sweet god - that's not a short range spell... its going to be nasty awful gun line tactics here. *shudder*
-aki
@Johnny True, now that I look at it this way, it doesn't look nearly as bad as it seems. Kind of like when the Pendant of Slaanesh changed in the new WoC book. For those who don't know, it's a talisman that for ½ a lord's magic item allowance makes his unit roll 1d6 for break tests, and yes, it can be comboed with the crown of command. Everyone in my store at least has complained about how OP the item is. Despite playing Slaanesh, I haven't used it in a single one of my lists. How many times have you seen that item when playing WoC? In tournaments it might cause problems, comp might solve that. And if it proves to be horrible in the end, chances are you'll never see it in a "friendly game". But then again, what can we actually say about this item when the army book hasn't even dropped yet?
Hanblack Nagash
Vargheist
The banner is defo under priced. If a chara miscasts while in the unit the only real miscast he worries about is the warp. The rest are 2++ ward saves. Its very rare that a banner can be awesome in 3 different phases.
In this case, shooting, magic and combat phase.
That banner is awesome. Simply put.
In this case, shooting, magic and combat phase.
That banner is awesome. Simply put.
Johnny-Crass said:
I smell a HE player....
I don't think anyone besides HE players thinks this item is fine.
Sure it's not the end of warhammer as we know it but it change alot for some armies.
And you have to be crazy not to see how undercosted it is.
Also HE doesn't need monsterous considering how great, and now also cheap, their elite infantry is.