I just hope that we didn't spend all of this money for them to say that all the new models are no longer in use. I know Nagash is pretty steep, but he's barely been back for 6 months...
End Times: Archaon
- Thread starter Adam_Barrow
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I do not expect nagash or any of tbe mortarchs to remain. That said, 'guy on big thing' is practically guaranteed to be an option for whatever form newhammer undead takes, if not at release then soon enough after, so there will be usable rules for the mortarchs & potentially even Nagash so long as 'guy on big thing' can also be 'crazy badass wizard'.
Plus there was rumors of errata to all existing factions to keep them usable in 9th even if their product lines are cancelled. And failing everything else, there's always homebrew, and oldhammer.
Plus there was rumors of errata to all existing factions to keep them usable in 9th even if their product lines are cancelled. And failing everything else, there's always homebrew, and oldhammer.
Von Drak
Skeleton
Pirate Robot Ninja of Death
Vampire Thrall
Yeah there's pretty much no way Nagash remains on as a SC in the new fluff. You'll have to play End Times battles if you want him, would be my guess.
The Mortarchs are fine though. I bought one to use as a Zombie Dragon for the new edition. Just don't glue the rider to it and you'll find a use for it.
PS: if you're ever trying to greenstuff robes/etc around a model that's already painted, a good way to do it is with seran wrap. Pull it tight over the model where you're wanting to work (i.e. where the "saddle" is) then tape it together at the bottom. You can then green stuff directly to the seran wrap and it will peel away once you're done. Works super well.
The Mortarchs are fine though. I bought one to use as a Zombie Dragon for the new edition. Just don't glue the rider to it and you'll find a use for it.
PS: if you're ever trying to greenstuff robes/etc around a model that's already painted, a good way to do it is with seran wrap. Pull it tight over the model where you're wanting to work (i.e. where the "saddle" is) then tape it together at the bottom. You can then green stuff directly to the seran wrap and it will peel away once you're done. Works super well.
Pirate Robot Ninja of Death
Vampire Thrall
From the Khemri boards:
Fucking boss.
‘And thus do the unworthy fall,’ a voice as dry as the desert sands rasped. Arkhan looked up from the crown, and turned. A familiar form, ancient bones shrouded in tattered ceremonial wrappings and broken armour, stepped towards them, khopesh in hand. ‘Will you join him in oblivion, Usurper?’
‘SETTRA,’ Nagash said.
‘I have walked across half of this world to find you, Usurper. You broke me and scattered me, but Settra is deathless. Settra is eternal. And so Settra returned, and now he stands here, sword in hand, and he denies you, Usurper. He stands between you and triumph,’ Settra croaked. He lifted his khopesh and pointed it at Nagash, who regarded him as if he were less a threat than a curiosity.
‘I DID NOT BRING YOU BACK, LITTLE KING,’ Nagash said.
‘No,’ Settra said. ‘You did not.’ The khopesh dipped. ‘They did. The jackals of the smokeless fire, the howlers in the Wastes. They dared to offer Settra aid.’
‘HOW FOOLISH OF THEM,’ Nagash said.
‘They offered Settra victories, and empires and life unending.’
‘AND WHAT DID THEY ASK IN RETURN, LITTLE KING?’
‘That I serve them and kill you.’ Settra looked down at the remains of Throgg, and then, quicker than Arkhan could follow, lunged. Nagash lurched aside, but Arkhan realised that Settra had not been aiming for the Incarnate of Death. Instead, the ancient king’s blade chopped into the scaly torso of the dragon ogre which had been preparing to smash its enormous axe down on the back of Nagash’s skull. The beast roared in agony, but Settra did not give it time to recover. He tore his blade free and slashed upwards, separating the monster’s head from its shoulders. It toppled over like a felled tree, and Settra turned.
He extended his khopesh towards Nagash. ‘Settra does not serve. Settra rules.’ He strode past them, towards the horde of monsters. ‘Go, prince of Khemri. Settra will forgive your trespasses if you but make the jackals howl. Teach them that the kings of the Great Land cannot be bought and sold like slaves. And then, when it is done, Settra shall take your head, and take back his people.’
As the last words left his mouth, Settra the Imperishable broke into a run, slashing out at a snarling giant even as the great beast reached down for him. His khopesh removed its fingers, and then its lower jaw in rapid succession. A moment later, he was lost to Arkhan’s sight as he plunged into the heart of the battle.
‘SETTRA,’ Nagash said.
‘I have walked across half of this world to find you, Usurper. You broke me and scattered me, but Settra is deathless. Settra is eternal. And so Settra returned, and now he stands here, sword in hand, and he denies you, Usurper. He stands between you and triumph,’ Settra croaked. He lifted his khopesh and pointed it at Nagash, who regarded him as if he were less a threat than a curiosity.
‘I DID NOT BRING YOU BACK, LITTLE KING,’ Nagash said.
‘No,’ Settra said. ‘You did not.’ The khopesh dipped. ‘They did. The jackals of the smokeless fire, the howlers in the Wastes. They dared to offer Settra aid.’
‘HOW FOOLISH OF THEM,’ Nagash said.
‘They offered Settra victories, and empires and life unending.’
‘AND WHAT DID THEY ASK IN RETURN, LITTLE KING?’
‘That I serve them and kill you.’ Settra looked down at the remains of Throgg, and then, quicker than Arkhan could follow, lunged. Nagash lurched aside, but Arkhan realised that Settra had not been aiming for the Incarnate of Death. Instead, the ancient king’s blade chopped into the scaly torso of the dragon ogre which had been preparing to smash its enormous axe down on the back of Nagash’s skull. The beast roared in agony, but Settra did not give it time to recover. He tore his blade free and slashed upwards, separating the monster’s head from its shoulders. It toppled over like a felled tree, and Settra turned.
He extended his khopesh towards Nagash. ‘Settra does not serve. Settra rules.’ He strode past them, towards the horde of monsters. ‘Go, prince of Khemri. Settra will forgive your trespasses if you but make the jackals howl. Teach them that the kings of the Great Land cannot be bought and sold like slaves. And then, when it is done, Settra shall take your head, and take back his people.’
As the last words left his mouth, Settra the Imperishable broke into a run, slashing out at a snarling giant even as the great beast reached down for him. His khopesh removed its fingers, and then its lower jaw in rapid succession. A moment later, he was lost to Arkhan’s sight as he plunged into the heart of the battle.
Fucking boss.
I'll be able to add more detail & a clearer description on the host of death in about 5-10 mins.
EDIT: shoot. The actual book just says 'morghasts', too. I think it's pretty safe to assume they mean 'morghast harbingers', since the other unit specifies archai, and one unit of each is shown in the picture.
Archan's casting bonus lasts as long as Nagash is on the table, and is enough to overcome the antisynergy of fielding both in the same army (every undeath spell archan casts at x2 points is a spell Nagash didn't cast at x3), especially since nagash's extra summoning points are often wasted (iirc, they summon the same numbers of terrorgheists and hexwraiths). Notably, arkhan can know death spells as well, and applies the bonus to whatever he casts regardless of lore, so you could keep the undeath spell on nagash and use arkhan to threaten +7 (+d3 if s titan's around) to cast purple suns.
I just got done changing my mind about magnets and assembling all of my morghasts as archai. Hrm, do I buy more, or hack apart some of those I just completed, or both? Shame the morghasts themselves don't get anything in this formation. They're not bad, but could have used a bit of a boost to contend with the more bombastic chaos and skaven end times units.
Krell also gains nothing, and isn't even required to keep the ws buff up on the grave guard and black knights, making him basically a tax on the formation, that can be forgotten about on the table. Once again Krell shoulders the burden of 'Mortarch of Missed Opportunities'.
The host of death may not be the most impressive end times scroll (read: it absolutely isn't). Still, it's got my two favorite UL special characters, and reasonably manages their otherwise frustrating antisynergy, while giving me a reason to field krell (even if that reason is just to pay a tax), so yeah, I'm all about this.
EDIT 2: note that formations in the archaon book may be fielded in armies other than their parent faction, using the normal rules for allies.
Additionally, the formations do not have the 'core formation' rules since they are intended for use with the new 'armies of the end times' unbound rules. However, there is a note at the ront of the datascrolls section that says if you use any of these formations in a game where 'armies of the end times' is not in effect, you are then not bound by the 'min 25% core' restriction on the rest of your list.
Of course, if you aren't playing with AotET, then you probably aren't playing with archaon formations, either, so... *shrug*
EDIT 3: the crumble reduction on the wights is pretty nice. Keep Nagash and at least one of the morghast units around, and that's -5 crumble. -6 if you throw in a bsb.
EDIT: shoot. The actual book just says 'morghasts', too. I think it's pretty safe to assume they mean 'morghast harbingers', since the other unit specifies archai, and one unit of each is shown in the picture.
Archan's casting bonus lasts as long as Nagash is on the table, and is enough to overcome the antisynergy of fielding both in the same army (every undeath spell archan casts at x2 points is a spell Nagash didn't cast at x3), especially since nagash's extra summoning points are often wasted (iirc, they summon the same numbers of terrorgheists and hexwraiths). Notably, arkhan can know death spells as well, and applies the bonus to whatever he casts regardless of lore, so you could keep the undeath spell on nagash and use arkhan to threaten +7 (+d3 if s titan's around) to cast purple suns.
I just got done changing my mind about magnets and assembling all of my morghasts as archai. Hrm, do I buy more, or hack apart some of those I just completed, or both? Shame the morghasts themselves don't get anything in this formation. They're not bad, but could have used a bit of a boost to contend with the more bombastic chaos and skaven end times units.
Krell also gains nothing, and isn't even required to keep the ws buff up on the grave guard and black knights, making him basically a tax on the formation, that can be forgotten about on the table. Once again Krell shoulders the burden of 'Mortarch of Missed Opportunities'.
The host of death may not be the most impressive end times scroll (read: it absolutely isn't). Still, it's got my two favorite UL special characters, and reasonably manages their otherwise frustrating antisynergy, while giving me a reason to field krell (even if that reason is just to pay a tax), so yeah, I'm all about this.
EDIT 2: note that formations in the archaon book may be fielded in armies other than their parent faction, using the normal rules for allies.
Additionally, the formations do not have the 'core formation' rules since they are intended for use with the new 'armies of the end times' unbound rules. However, there is a note at the ront of the datascrolls section that says if you use any of these formations in a game where 'armies of the end times' is not in effect, you are then not bound by the 'min 25% core' restriction on the rest of your list.
Of course, if you aren't playing with AotET, then you probably aren't playing with archaon formations, either, so... *shrug*
EDIT 3: the crumble reduction on the wights is pretty nice. Keep Nagash and at least one of the morghast units around, and that's -5 crumble. -6 if you throw in a bsb.
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Von Drak
Skeleton
So the ''no restriction'' seems for battlescroll only or it's gonna be FAQ like the 50% lord for any army ?!?
Just a few hours until I can get my claws on the e-book. One thing that GW did exceedingly well with these stories is keeping us in both suspense and join us in common cause. Perhaps this is not the ending we would have wanted to see, but it (seems) is not a bad ending, at least for the Undead (like the series Spartacus, which I adore, and have a hint of similarity to this).
This sunday, I'll play with all my Warhammer community, and will do so with End Times rules (I think, we'll have to see about magic, but everything else goes!).
Oh and speaking of "unbound" lists, we can finally have 4+ Regen saves on Terrorgheists
!!!!
Anyhow, since the (warhammer) world is ending, I'd like to speak my farewells in the form of bloody Undead-to-chaos combat! Will tell you how it goes!
This sunday, I'll play with all my Warhammer community, and will do so with End Times rules (I think, we'll have to see about magic, but everything else goes!).
Oh and speaking of "unbound" lists, we can finally have 4+ Regen saves on Terrorgheists
!!!!Anyhow, since the (warhammer) world is ending, I'd like to speak my farewells in the form of bloody Undead-to-chaos combat! Will tell you how it goes!
The 'no restrictions' (specifically no min units, no limit on duplicate choices, no percentages; if you want stuff from other armies, you still have to gollow the ally rules) stuff is part of a new set of 'armies of the end times' rules, which present themselves as the new official rules in general:
However, this is undercut by a designers note that basically amounts to 'you know, if you want, or not, but srsly guys give it a try, c'mon':
However, this is undercut by a designers note that basically amounts to 'you know, if you want, or not, but srsly guys give it a try, c'mon':
Just thought I'd point out: team incarnates was totally robbed. They killed archaon, and five incarnates survived to the end of the fight, which qualifies as victory according to the scenario rules. They only lost because archaon was arbitrarily returned to the field for no good reason (chaos victory if archaon lives, incarnate victory if archaon dies and 5+ incarnates live, draw otherwise, although in the campaign rules a draw is still the end of the world).
I got the ebook from black lib. Not as pretty, but cheaper. Chapter 2's the big one for undead, Nagash is sleeping in his pyramid absorbing power enough to defeat chaos single handed, Nurgle sends Izzy, with a little help from ickit claw, to mess it up. You can guess how that goes by the fact that the rest of the book happens at all.
I'm happy with it overall, but am somewhat disappointed that there wasn't any big confrontation between Nagash and Skreech Verminking, given their history.
I'm happy with it overall, but am somewhat disappointed that there wasn't any big confrontation between Nagash and Skreech Verminking, given their history.
I was hoping it'd be the Big Bad Nagash vs Rat-things, too. But then, I was also hoping Grimgor was gunna walk up to Archaon, give dat git thuh ol' 'eadbutt, throw up two deuces, and moonwalk outta there.
downloading the book now...
One thing that comforts me is: the Chaos Gods are not as absolute as they present them in the Daemons of Chaos book. One tiny (albeit, giant to us) necromancer, born a human no less, could threaten them. We'll have our chance again in 9th, hopefully with the "remaining knowledge" from this old (1st - 8th edition?) world and get them good this time
One thing that comforts me is: the Chaos Gods are not as absolute as they present them in the Daemons of Chaos book. One tiny (albeit, giant to us) necromancer, born a human no less, could threaten them. We'll have our chance again in 9th, hopefully with the "remaining knowledge" from this old (1st - 8th edition?) world and get them good this time
The incarnates never threatened the existence of the gods, just their capacity to claim one solitary world out of billions, albeit one they particularly desired.
Yup. But we were already getting warnings to that effect before the campaign even started, so the question was less 'do they do it' and more 'how does it go down'.
Something I posted on the Warseer thread:
I enjoyed the end times well enough, as the bombastic, if somewhat brainless (Bay-esque, really) send off for the Old World that we were told basically from the start it was going to be. Then again, I went in basically already playing Undead Legion (Mannfred-led Vamp Counts with the intent of eventually picking up Arkhan-led tomb kings), and the Legion had arguably the best showing in the overall campaign, being the principle focus of Nagash (the best book by far story-wise, though some of the scenarios were especially week), and getting some of the best moments (and few of the most terrible) in the concluding book. Nagash, Arkhan, and Krell all behave in character and get cool moments. Vlad especially practically steals the show. I know some don't like 'compulsive backstabber Star-Scream Mannfred', but I really like that take on his character. I was totally eating it up all the way through his entire End Times run, and especially love that in the very end it was he that decided the final fate, even if I was rolling my eyes at the arbitrary idiot ball forced onto Tyrion and Alarielle that they didn't just, you know, kill him and get it over with when they had the chance. I cannot tell you how much I would love to see him reappear as a named Daemon Prince of Tzeentch at some point in the future. I would buy him for my chaos marines in a moment if they could field him.
Between the novel and the campaign book, we get moments for Nagash and Arkhan; Neferrata and Khalida, Arkhan, and Vlad; Vlad and Mannfred; and of course especially Vlad and Isabella, possibly the highlight of the entire fun (imo), messy (unquestionably) ride of End Times: Archaon.
So, yeah, between Khaine and Archaon, I can totally see Elf Players being upset about nonsense motivations, idiot balls, and out-of-character behavior. And I can totally see Ogre and Orc players angry about being largely sidelined. And Bret, Dwarf, Lizard, and Tomb Kings players upset at the varyingly ignoble ends of their own factions. But as a Vamp counts player who wanted to be playing 'undead legions' before ET:Nagash even made them a thing, I'm completely satisfied with how the campaign treated my own faction and my own favorite characters. For me and mine, it was a fantastic send off.
Not enough to have me feeling positive about 9th, but my own animosity towards it at least is certainly significantly dulled.
Something I posted on the Warseer thread:
I enjoyed the end times well enough, as the bombastic, if somewhat brainless (Bay-esque, really) send off for the Old World that we were told basically from the start it was going to be. Then again, I went in basically already playing Undead Legion (Mannfred-led Vamp Counts with the intent of eventually picking up Arkhan-led tomb kings), and the Legion had arguably the best showing in the overall campaign, being the principle focus of Nagash (the best book by far story-wise, though some of the scenarios were especially week), and getting some of the best moments (and few of the most terrible) in the concluding book. Nagash, Arkhan, and Krell all behave in character and get cool moments. Vlad especially practically steals the show. I know some don't like 'compulsive backstabber Star-Scream Mannfred', but I really like that take on his character. I was totally eating it up all the way through his entire End Times run, and especially love that in the very end it was he that decided the final fate, even if I was rolling my eyes at the arbitrary idiot ball forced onto Tyrion and Alarielle that they didn't just, you know, kill him and get it over with when they had the chance. I cannot tell you how much I would love to see him reappear as a named Daemon Prince of Tzeentch at some point in the future. I would buy him for my chaos marines in a moment if they could field him.
Between the novel and the campaign book, we get moments for Nagash and Arkhan; Neferrata and Khalida, Arkhan, and Vlad; Vlad and Mannfred; and of course especially Vlad and Isabella, possibly the highlight of the entire fun (imo), messy (unquestionably) ride of End Times: Archaon.
So, yeah, between Khaine and Archaon, I can totally see Elf Players being upset about nonsense motivations, idiot balls, and out-of-character behavior. And I can totally see Ogre and Orc players angry about being largely sidelined. And Bret, Dwarf, Lizard, and Tomb Kings players upset at the varyingly ignoble ends of their own factions. But as a Vamp counts player who wanted to be playing 'undead legions' before ET:Nagash even made them a thing, I'm completely satisfied with how the campaign treated my own faction and my own favorite characters. For me and mine, it was a fantastic send off.
Not enough to have me feeling positive about 9th, but my own animosity towards it at least is certainly significantly dulled.
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Well, looks like the END of end times is revealed, so it's all gone. While I know that the undead will have a place in the new system, I hate to say goodbye to some of my oldest friends. I've been doing this as of about 1983-4 and undead was one of the first armies I started.
Good news is like I said, the undead will always be a fantasy game staple as much as knights or goblin kind, so it will be fun to see what this new system brings to us. But as I've said before, if you're looking at that mini you like but havnt bought it yet, I would do it! This new 6-8 month casting rumor will limit a lot of the waiting game. Stuff out now may not be available by the end of summer., and I would think direct only. Over half of the undead stuff now is direct sales. Mix that with the rumors of GW making collectors and or game mini's, I forsee changed a coming.
Good news is like I said, the undead will always be a fantasy game staple as much as knights or goblin kind, so it will be fun to see what this new system brings to us. But as I've said before, if you're looking at that mini you like but havnt bought it yet, I would do it! This new 6-8 month casting rumor will limit a lot of the waiting game. Stuff out now may not be available by the end of summer., and I would think direct only. Over half of the undead stuff now is direct sales. Mix that with the rumors of GW making collectors and or game mini's, I forsee changed a coming.
And don't forget, there's always fandom resistance. Fans kept Chaos Dwarves alive through 6th, 7th, and 8th editions. Fans on this very board were collaborating on rules for Nagash and his legions long before GW brought the great necromancer back, however briefly. Going into 9th without an official Nagash isn't so much a terrible loss as a return to the status quo, here. Likewise with Vlad - sure, he was awesome in the end times. Sure, he's dead again now. But he was dead before the End Times, too. Vlad has always been dead in the lore, never stopped us playing him before. I'd be shocked if newhammer undead have no equivalent 'tough melee general with some magic ability' to use for Vlad counts-as style, and even if they don't, there's always homebrew.
And we are of course free to write our own story, perhaps one where the Incarnates defeat chaos, paving the way for a great war between the living and the dead, one played out in whatever game format (KoW, Oldhammer, Newhammer, or whatever) we like.
Or we could forge a fanon where Neferata, Isabella, and Arkhan get back in Sylvania in time to harness the magics of death collected there to shunt the realm into whatever the newhammer setting turns out to be, and we can just play newhammer undead with a few homebrew characters.
And we are of course free to write our own story, perhaps one where the Incarnates defeat chaos, paving the way for a great war between the living and the dead, one played out in whatever game format (KoW, Oldhammer, Newhammer, or whatever) we like.
Or we could forge a fanon where Neferata, Isabella, and Arkhan get back in Sylvania in time to harness the magics of death collected there to shunt the realm into whatever the newhammer setting turns out to be, and we can just play newhammer undead with a few homebrew characters.
Unless they release all of the new army books with "9th edition" then the characters will still remain as we would have to use our current books.
Also, despite Vlad, Isabella and Konrad being "dead" in the 8th ed. Timeline they were still in the VC army book. I imagine this trend will continue going forwards, it would be silly not to. Even if this means our large scale battles are "historical".
I see Nagash and co still being available to use after the summer, we may get some new heroes but I think those mentioned in the ET stuff will remain. Konrad and Kemmler may go but the others should stick around.
Also, despite Vlad, Isabella and Konrad being "dead" in the 8th ed. Timeline they were still in the VC army book. I imagine this trend will continue going forwards, it would be silly not to. Even if this means our large scale battles are "historical".
I see Nagash and co still being available to use after the summer, we may get some new heroes but I think those mentioned in the ET stuff will remain. Konrad and Kemmler may go but the others should stick around.
From some of the rumors, all existing army books will get errata updates to make them playable in 9th, after which those that do not have explicit 9e counterparts will be forgotten forever (ala chaos dwarves being updated to 6th in ravening hordes, but otherwise dropped from the game.
From other rumors, the new factions are supposed to be few, with few units available to each. It seems unlikely that both of these rumors would be true, as games between 8e factions and new factions with barely half a dozen units to choose from would likely be even less balanced than games between legion lists and plain 8e factions now. So even if 8e factions are officially brought into 9e (and if they aren't brought forward officially, you know the fan community will homebrew it anyway), games between old and new factions still likely won't be very functional.
If the 'few, small factions' rumor proves correct, the entire 9e model range could have its rules potentially included in the main rulebook, with future releases in campaign form with a unit or two for each faction, and all units having their rules in the box regardless like they've already started doing, sort of the way warmahordes does. That game eventually had enough units per faction that they did army books anyway, but since 9e expansion releases are all supposed to be limited availability....
Yet other rumors say the units for the new factions will also be made available retroactively to the otherwise forgotten old factions, sort of like how Morghasts were an 'undead legions' unit that was also mad available to plain old vampire counts. Of course, with not all old factions having new counterparts, and new units being designed for the new game with no regard to how they fit into the old one, balance would become a problem for those who stick to old factions but allow new stuff.
There are many rumors swirling around, some fortelling greater changes and others smaller. It's likely all or mostly guesswork. Any leaks are likely from earlier play tests, when GW would have (or at least should have) been trying anything and everything just to see what might work, so even the rumors that are more substantive than guesswork likely have no more chance of being accurate.
It's a time of uncertainty for Fantasy players, and is not likely to get any clearer until we're much closer to 9e's release, probably several months from now.
From other rumors, the new factions are supposed to be few, with few units available to each. It seems unlikely that both of these rumors would be true, as games between 8e factions and new factions with barely half a dozen units to choose from would likely be even less balanced than games between legion lists and plain 8e factions now. So even if 8e factions are officially brought into 9e (and if they aren't brought forward officially, you know the fan community will homebrew it anyway), games between old and new factions still likely won't be very functional.
If the 'few, small factions' rumor proves correct, the entire 9e model range could have its rules potentially included in the main rulebook, with future releases in campaign form with a unit or two for each faction, and all units having their rules in the box regardless like they've already started doing, sort of the way warmahordes does. That game eventually had enough units per faction that they did army books anyway, but since 9e expansion releases are all supposed to be limited availability....
Yet other rumors say the units for the new factions will also be made available retroactively to the otherwise forgotten old factions, sort of like how Morghasts were an 'undead legions' unit that was also mad available to plain old vampire counts. Of course, with not all old factions having new counterparts, and new units being designed for the new game with no regard to how they fit into the old one, balance would become a problem for those who stick to old factions but allow new stuff.
There are many rumors swirling around, some fortelling greater changes and others smaller. It's likely all or mostly guesswork. Any leaks are likely from earlier play tests, when GW would have (or at least should have) been trying anything and everything just to see what might work, so even the rumors that are more substantive than guesswork likely have no more chance of being accurate.
It's a time of uncertainty for Fantasy players, and is not likely to get any clearer until we're much closer to 9e's release, probably several months from now.
Very true regarding the rumours.
All I'll say is "round bases". On other forums everyone was going crazy over this but it has basically been proven as false. Square bases still in use at head office as of two weeks ago and the latest fantasy characters are on square bases.
I think you're right when you say we won't hear any substantially true rumours until closer to the release date. (I'm guessing May or after June, apparently June will be something completely out of left field - edit - looks like July for "9th" edition) so I'm not worried about the rumours floating around out there.
The only hint I have been given about current thinking is "think The Matrix" it's happened before, it'll happen again. But that could change. If I find out more I will be sure to post what I can.
All I'll say is "round bases". On other forums everyone was going crazy over this but it has basically been proven as false. Square bases still in use at head office as of two weeks ago and the latest fantasy characters are on square bases.
I think you're right when you say we won't hear any substantially true rumours until closer to the release date. (I'm guessing May or after June, apparently June will be something completely out of left field - edit - looks like July for "9th" edition) so I'm not worried about the rumours floating around out there.
The only hint I have been given about current thinking is "think The Matrix" it's happened before, it'll happen again. But that could change. If I find out more I will be sure to post what I can.
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I absolutely believe that they tried round bases. Again, they really should have tried everything, including just straight up 'fantasy, but with 40k rules'.
If they go to a skirmish game, then round bases absolutely make sense. Even for a battle game, round bases could be fine for single model units under certain conditions (facing doesn't matter, combats are unit to unit rather than model to model). If they want units to rank up, then round bases are less good, of course.
The important things, IMO, for new fantasy are as follows:
1) buy in cost is low. This means the game must scale down, and must be a good game when scaled down. I do not feel fantasy achieves this currently. At the very least, small games need to work as well as they do in 40k. GW wants to sell 'premium' models for 'premium' prices, and honestly that is absolutely fine, but the model count per standard game needs to come way way down. It's not even just the price, in games of hundreds of models on a side, GW's fancy models take too long to paint, and the fancy details of individual models are lost in the crowd.
2) 1 box = 1 unit, with very few if any exceptions. The standard unit sizes in fantasy these days are often 2 to 4 boxes. That's gotta stop.
3) Manageable stock. On the one hand, cutting way back on stock will really tick off their existing stockists. On the other hand, bunches of places don't stock fantasy because there's just too many factions with too much junk. If they're starting fresh, they should actually do that. Few factions, few units, manageable stock.
4) The game is good. I know Najo's got a ton of confidence here, but I'm a bit more skeptical of some of their recent ventures. They need to go smaller scale if they want to keep selling premium models, but there are a lot of really good smaller scale fantasy mins games. Games that can be played in an hour. Games that are satisfying both casually and competitively.
5) Community support. They're effectively relaunching what they would like to be one of their flagship lines. The existing community of players and retailers, what of it hasn't already drifted away, will be in some large part alienated by the change over. They need to get new blood excited. Posters, giveaways, promotional models, web content that isn't just a store front. If not tournament support then support for leagues and narrative campaigns, GW reps who can travel to retailers in places they don't have stores to talk up the game to skeptical owners and run demos for interested players. More of their already pretty damn quality 'how to paint' videos. Battle Report videos between developers featuring game mechanics they like in the new edition. Video interviews where the designers talk up the fluff, look, and gameplay features of each of the new factions, sort of like how the League of Legends folks do for new champions.
The absolute ideal would be a sort of 'tale of X gamer' (with x = the number of factions in 9th) escalation league article series running through several months of white dwarf, featuring key design studio people (rules designers, sculptors, heavy metal painters), with those same people appearing in video battle reports using these new armies on GW's youtube page and in design interviews about the new game as described above. Throw in some unique scenarios in their campaign, and a stapleback campaign book including some of those scenarios, fluff info, faction descriptions, and minimal rules + statlines for the smallest starting size to be given out as a free promotional thing to let people try out the basics of the new game for themselves.
A bunch of those booklets would go free to any store that stocks enough of the new range, along with league support - escalation league info (unique scenarios for games of each size), and prize support (game counters, promotional dice, etc). Make it a big thing. Make a larger point of featuring individual stores and gamers participating online and in white dwarf.
I don't know. Whatever they do, they need to establish at least the aura of interaction between GW and the community. They need to break this impression of the withdrawn corporate body up in their ivory tower, releasing games without caring if anyone likes or buys them.
If they go to a skirmish game, then round bases absolutely make sense. Even for a battle game, round bases could be fine for single model units under certain conditions (facing doesn't matter, combats are unit to unit rather than model to model). If they want units to rank up, then round bases are less good, of course.
The important things, IMO, for new fantasy are as follows:
1) buy in cost is low. This means the game must scale down, and must be a good game when scaled down. I do not feel fantasy achieves this currently. At the very least, small games need to work as well as they do in 40k. GW wants to sell 'premium' models for 'premium' prices, and honestly that is absolutely fine, but the model count per standard game needs to come way way down. It's not even just the price, in games of hundreds of models on a side, GW's fancy models take too long to paint, and the fancy details of individual models are lost in the crowd.
2) 1 box = 1 unit, with very few if any exceptions. The standard unit sizes in fantasy these days are often 2 to 4 boxes. That's gotta stop.
3) Manageable stock. On the one hand, cutting way back on stock will really tick off their existing stockists. On the other hand, bunches of places don't stock fantasy because there's just too many factions with too much junk. If they're starting fresh, they should actually do that. Few factions, few units, manageable stock.
4) The game is good. I know Najo's got a ton of confidence here, but I'm a bit more skeptical of some of their recent ventures. They need to go smaller scale if they want to keep selling premium models, but there are a lot of really good smaller scale fantasy mins games. Games that can be played in an hour. Games that are satisfying both casually and competitively.
5) Community support. They're effectively relaunching what they would like to be one of their flagship lines. The existing community of players and retailers, what of it hasn't already drifted away, will be in some large part alienated by the change over. They need to get new blood excited. Posters, giveaways, promotional models, web content that isn't just a store front. If not tournament support then support for leagues and narrative campaigns, GW reps who can travel to retailers in places they don't have stores to talk up the game to skeptical owners and run demos for interested players. More of their already pretty damn quality 'how to paint' videos. Battle Report videos between developers featuring game mechanics they like in the new edition. Video interviews where the designers talk up the fluff, look, and gameplay features of each of the new factions, sort of like how the League of Legends folks do for new champions.
The absolute ideal would be a sort of 'tale of X gamer' (with x = the number of factions in 9th) escalation league article series running through several months of white dwarf, featuring key design studio people (rules designers, sculptors, heavy metal painters), with those same people appearing in video battle reports using these new armies on GW's youtube page and in design interviews about the new game as described above. Throw in some unique scenarios in their campaign, and a stapleback campaign book including some of those scenarios, fluff info, faction descriptions, and minimal rules + statlines for the smallest starting size to be given out as a free promotional thing to let people try out the basics of the new game for themselves.
A bunch of those booklets would go free to any store that stocks enough of the new range, along with league support - escalation league info (unique scenarios for games of each size), and prize support (game counters, promotional dice, etc). Make it a big thing. Make a larger point of featuring individual stores and gamers participating online and in white dwarf.
I don't know. Whatever they do, they need to establish at least the aura of interaction between GW and the community. They need to break this impression of the withdrawn corporate body up in their ivory tower, releasing games without caring if anyone likes or buys them.
