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Let's make some simple but solid AoS tourney rules!

Demian

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Messages
1,248
#26
I hear you D:

As a matter of fact, my above post does include a bit more complexity than I had hoped for, and even then there are a lot of areas where people can abuse the system to a point.

Having a side-board / a summoning pool (with defined values in therms of quantity) is a good idea, and may solve some issues of balancing, since there are no "hard" counter armies anymore I think, but you have to be prepared for everything that can be thrown at your way, so you have a fighting chance against, say a 100% shooting army, which may or may not appear en an event.

What I believe is essential here is:

  • A balance / limit between models, wounds and Units: Command Abilities tend to affect whole Units, so abusing a unit's size with Necropolis Knights (I've seen it, it is nasty to have them get My Will be Done + Righteous Smiting to a unit of 11 Necro Knights, they just tear everything appart, the amount of wounds is astronomical).

    - That's why I propose a 50 wound and 25 wound limit for any Unit, at any given time. Having and moving more than 50 zombies is a nightmare, and more than inconvenient. Also, Having 50 Grave Guard is not the same as 50 Skeleton Warriors, I assure you, even though not all of them get to strike, some models have a better statline than others with the same amount of wounds, and there should be a way to limit that in a tournament. If you read all warscrolls, all save for Ogres (basic "Core" Ogres) have a minimum unit size of 10 for Units that are not entirely overpowered but have a better "Elite" version of them for a single wound count. This addresses the problem of "not every Wound counts the same", although I don't know if it solves it. 8 Blood Knights sounds fair, 5 Necropolis Knights is OK, 4 Mournfangs are about the same unit size people used to field before, Bretonnian cavalry gets to benefit from their "massed" cavalry bonus of 10+ models, which gets in line of the more "equal" therms.

  • Meassuring the Victory points with Wounds, not Models is a fair, more accurate way to determine your effectiveness than percentages. Armies with bulky models (usually with a High Save count and much better combat prowess) tend to matter more in the end count. Since Wounds is the basic unit we take to measure an Army's worth, we should take them as well to determine Casualties. Summoning stuff would just add to the amount of Casualties you can potentially take, thus not messing up with balance.

  • Limiting duplicates of Units is only fair, although it may only apply to Monsters an Heroes, since some formations require the use of more than X units of the same Warscroll. We MUST, however, limit the amount of Heroes we can take since having 4 Tomb Kings + Settra means auto-hits and auto-successes for the Righteous Smiting spell and that is game breaking.

  • I'm all in for a way to limit, yet not hinder summoning / reinforcements from other effects, such as Vlad's Wight King "summon" or The Coven Throne's Vampire Lord thralling, or the Bolt of Change's Chaos Spawn summoning, and all of the "add 1 model to this unit" Tomb King units tend to do. Having a side-board that also funcions as your summoning limit is brilliant. I would only add that: Models Slain can't be returned to the field, via any other means than those which specifically say "return slain models to..." This is the hard limit to summoning and sets the armies to a balanced-ish kind of playing. Since victory is meassured with Casualties, it should not be a problem.

  • Last, I must emphazise in the use of Named Heroes and Faction armies over Generic Heroes and having an army comprised of a single Warscroll Compendium: not all Warriors of Chaos may want to play along Daemons and the like, so why not give a bit of a bonus? Regardless of system, having Nagash + 3 Mortarchs + Vlad and Isabella and a whole army backing them up is, well... cheesy and we all agree on that. Vlad is not worth the same as a generic Vampire Lord, and Wound count can't distinguish between them, but we can arrange some form of balance.
 

Malisteen

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#27
Forbidding duplicate choices of non-named units goes too far, imo. Some factions with limited selections rely on duplicate heroes (tomb kings, for instance, have only a single wizard option). Almost any themed build will rely on multiples of the same unit to convey that theme, while nearly every formation requires such. And I can't see anything wrong with, say, a wight-themed army with a wight king general and a separate wight king bsb, for instance. I'd cap at maybe 2 of any hero/monster/war machine, or 3 of any scroll that doesn't have one of those keywords, at the most.
 

najo

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#28
I think we are making progress. I would like to see a simpler form of what you created. Let's strip it down and see what we can get. What if we add your Wound cap and used the summoning/ side board pool, plus have the 2 unit limit to a structure similiar to what I purposed that is simpler? What does that look like?
 

Demian

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Messages
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#29
@Malisteen I've found that up to 2 models of a single HERO prevents cheese to be applied for: Tomb King's My Will be Done rule, overlaping with itself and Tomb Herald's Standard of the Undying legion bringing back a full Necropolis Knight a turn x2. I would have no problem if such effects couldn't overlap from a single source (the special Rule, not the model that has it, like Morghast's Heralds of the Accursed One). 2 Liche Priests are a bit restricting yes, but they have many other forms to backup their army, them being Tomb Heralds or even fielding Necromancers or Vampires, now that they adapt well to DEATH themed armies.

@najo Ok I think I've got it:

EDIT: integrating tweaks, suggested by you :D!
  1. An Army of up to 120 Wounds.
  2. A minimum of 60 Wounds must belong to models without the HERO, MONSTER or WAR MACHINE tag.
  3. You may have up to 4 Units with the HERO tag, and from those:
    • up to 20 Wounds may belong to Named HEROES. Named HEROES cannot duplicate by any means.
  4. No more than 2 copies of the same HERO, MONSTER or WAR MACHINE units.
  5. No Unit, may have more than 25 wounds. The only exceptions are:
    • Units whose minimum unit size is 10 or more, and Ogres (basic Ogres). Those Units may have up to 50 wounds.
  • Armies without Named HEROES may add up to 20 wounds to their total Army to field (they are 140 Wound Armies).
  • Armies entirely composed from the same Warscroll Compendiums may have up to 6 Units with the HERO tag instead. (including the Side Board)
- Last, all armies may have a Side Board of up to 40 Wounds to interchange Units / models at the start of a Battle, as long as their Fielded Army follows the above 5 points rules. These Units account for any rules that allow armies to summon Reinforcements as well.

  • Army lists must specify what those Wounds are used for. Armies that can Summon Units may use the Side Board as their Summoning Pool, using the amount of Wounds to set up any Units their army has access to. If you create a Vampire Counts-only army, summoned Units can only come from the Vampire Counts warscroll Compendium, etc. To provide for the two bonuses in army building in the bullet points above.

    (ie: 5 Blood Knights as a Side Board, + 25 Wounds for the Summoning Pool)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

During the game, all Casualties are accounted for, and may not re-enter the Battle unless by an effect that returns Slain models to the board. If the Side Board pool is depleted, then one cannot summon / reinforce one's Army anymore.

*Effects that are not Spells, or Command Abilities but allow armies to set up new models on the field do not substract from the Summoning Pool, but are counted as casualties as normal.

At the end of the 6th Battle Round, count the Casualty Pool's wounds to determine a Minor Victory, or a Wipe-out for a Major Victory. No other Victory Conditions can be applied.
 
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Malisteen

Master Necromancer
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#30
I would throw war machines in with the hero and monster limits, up the sideboard to 40 wounds, get rid of the extra points for avoiding named heroes (perhaps instead count them as multiple hero slots?), get rid of the extra hero slots for being a single faction (almost all factions are built with enough synergy to encourage choosing thematically appropriate forces to begin with), up the total limit on heroes & monsters to 6 and have war machines count towards that limit as well, apply the 'no more than two of the same' limit to war machines as well, and make some provision for the terrain pieces, as they're kind of cool, imo.

Also get rid of the 'under any circumstance' phrasing in 'no unit, under any circumstance, may have more than 25 wounds', considering you immediately follow it with circumstances where a unit may have more than 25 wounds.

Also 25 and 50 is a bit too wide of a gulf, and doesn't really address the issue of 2 units of 25 elite things is generally a good deal better than 1 unit of 50 core things, especially when you're dealing with a 120 wound limit to start, or unit upgrades that only trigger once per unit (undead banners, for instance). What you want is some way to reduce the 'cost' of the core type units that rely on numbers to function. Short of bonus wounds in the army for including a minimum number of 'core' units or wounds, I'm not sure what you could do, though. And that would require a list of all units considered to be core.


Also, if you're designing rules for tournaments, 120 wounds seems like too large a baseline, likely to result in fairly long games, especially when players start micromanaging mixed unit formations and individual model positioning for combat zone control. IMO, half that is probably more appropriate.
 
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Demian

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#31
Well, just had my first game today following the above rules.

It was awesome :D!

What I could learn from that experience, Summoning and Reinforcing was balanced very well, since I had the pressure to cast Mystic Shield and the Heroes's signature spells, more than summoning chaff. I finished a game where I only summoned 2 Morghast Harbingers and 3 Vargheists (24 wounds out of 30) which was more than enough.

My opponet summoned 2 Daemon Princes as well, so the match was even.

The Army themes (he didn't summon 2 Lords of Change, but he could field 6 Heroes, which made the difference) are a nice way to limit most stuff, and the hindrance (only 4 Heroes) when using Chaos would have been nice as well.

Point limits was enough, I saw. I could field 1 of every unit I wanted, plus a 36-man zombie unit to absorb some wounds. Sure, 25 of Elite Units sounds tasty, until those units have less wounds to absorb before starting to decay, and many things get automatic damage right off. Also, if they where to face each other, the 25-man Warriors of Chaos would strike quite hard at two 12-man Chosen units, even if a single Chosen unit got to attack first.

Larger units are much more dangerous, because the only real way to deal with them to crush them, is to hit them hard and fast, before they strike, and even then you may get on the receiving end of their blades.

All in all, Unit limit worked well, I saw. I only fielded 20 Grave Guard (all I have) and they did alright, considering I let them take a beating by the Chosen and moved the Zombies in too late to support them. They sliced the hell of a Daemon Prince, though.

We actually could up the Summoning Pool to 40, it would still be nice without having major cheese spam, but I cannot see how we could skip the Unit limits, since that is what made people not take 25+ Chosen and just go rampaging with a unit that, while it can be stuck in combat, it isn't for long with the damage output they would have if they held such numbers, and no one would like to field Skeletons, Warriors, common Ogres, etc.

Maybe up the Hero count to 5 & 7, but you don't want that many spam from special abilities / spells from any army. Some armies don't feel the sting, but others do change their playstyle knowing that, Beastmen for example, can't use their Bray Shaman to summon WoC/DoC/Skaven stuff, but can include more characters, plus the Monster they can summon is comparable in performance than others.

The issue here is that, there is no other way to identify what is a Core Unit and what isn't. The only marker we have is the min unit sizes, that tell you some stuff is more powerful than other, but that you should not mistake only using the seemingly more powerful choice just because you think it's going to outperform the former.

Command Abilities target whole units, and that's why we can't allow Wound count to disregard the difference between a Warrior of Chaos and a Chosen.

I did not include War Machines on the Units limit because I thought Dwarfs would get on the bad side of the deal, seeing how their army has a lot of that, but from the Empire point of View, it does make sense to limit the cannon-spam D:

Last, not using named Characters is the least popular choice, and again, sometimes their Wounds do not correspond to those of generic heroes with the same wound count, because some are notoriously more powerful.
 

Malisteen

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#32
Wounds that don't correspond to comparative power overall is not a problem exclusive to named characters, and I personally don't feel a blanket banning is appropriate. Let actual game experience accumulate, and if particular units (heroes or not, named or otherwise) prove to be problematic, ban those.
 
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#33
There was a GW event thrown some time back that ran the below composition rules along with a few other changes, but I liked them quite a bit:

The Armies For every 25 counted wounds you may take:
• 4 Warscrolls
• 8 Wounds of models with the Hero keyword (only 60% can be spent on a single model, rounding up)
• 6 Wounds of models with the Monster keyword
• 5 Wounds of models with the Warmachine keyword
• All models with 10 or more wounds must be from the same Compendium as the General. Regardless of Wound Totals
• All named Heroes are 0-1 choices and may not be taken multiple times.
• All unnamed Heroes are 0-2 choices and may not be taken more than twice.
• Models with both the Hero and Monster keyword count against both allowances
• No more than 35% of the army’s total Wounds may be models with the Fly special rule.
• When a model receives a Wound through an upgrade, the bonus is not counted towards your army’s total wounds.
• When a unit exceeds 10 models, receive 2 models for each that is purchased with wounds. i.e. a unit that begins at Five, 1-wound models, would cost 10 wounds total for a unit of 10, but only 15 wounds for a unit of 20.
 
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#34
Otherwise the rules were changed to as follows:
  • Page 2 - BATTLE ROUNDS Remove Initiative from the Game.
  • Page 3 - COMMAND ABILITY Change the section to read: In your hero phase, your general can use one command ability. All generals have the Inspiring Presence command ability, which they may use any number of times per battle. If they have one, your general may use each printed command ability on their Warscroll once per game.
  • Page 4 - PICKING TARGETS Add the following section: If the attack is being made with a Ranged Weapon in the Shooting phase additional requirements apply: Units with any models engaged with enemies (within 3” of an enemy model) may not perform shooting attacks in the shooting phase. Special Rules which specifically allow for Shooting Attacks to be made in the Combat Phase (such as the Skull Cannons’ Grind their Bones, Seize their Skulls ability) circumvent this limitation. When targeting an enemy unit with models engaged with allied models, only those which are greater than 3” of an allied model are eligible to take Wounds. These models must be the closest to the firing unit, who cannot shoot through allied models. When assigning the Wound Pool, should the closest model to the firing unit be within 3” of an ally, or be an ally, all remaining Wounds are discounted and the attack ends Look Out Sir!: Hero models without the Monster keyword within 3” of an allied unit cannot be targeted by ranged attacks unless they are the closest model to the firing unit. When attacked by a ranged attack, after rolling to wound, but before making saves of any kind, the Hero may make a Look out Sir! Roll. On a 4+ an allied unit within 3” (who is not engaged in close combat) immediately takes any saves they are required to take as though they were the initial target of the attack.
  • Page 4 - MAKING ATTACKS Change Step 4) Determine Damage to read: Once all of the attacks made by a unit have been carried out, each successful attack inflicts a number of wounds equal to the Damage characteristic of the weapon. Most weapons have a Damage characteristic of 1, but some can inflict 2 or more wounds, allowing them to cause grievous injuries to even the mightiest foe, or to cleave through more than one opponent with but a single blow! In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same To Hit, To Wound, Rend and Damage characteristics, and must be directed at the same enemy unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls, and finally all of the save rolls; then add up the total number of wounds caused. This is the Wound Pool for the attack
  • Page 4 - Inflicting Damage Change the section to read: After all of the attacks made by a unit have been carried out, the player commanding the target unit resolves the Wound Pool by allocating the wounds to the closest model to the attacking unit. Sometimes it will be unclear which model in a target unit is closest to the attacking unit because there is no discernible difference between the attacking unit and several models in the target unit. If two or more models are equidistant from the attacking unit, the owning player chooses which model is dealt the wound. The model is treated as being the closest model and remains so until either the attacking unit’s attack ends or the model is slain. When inflicting damage, if a model is allocated a wound, it must be allocated all remaining wounds in the pool until either it is slain or no more wounds remain to be allocated. When assigning wounds, Unit Command models are always treated as not being the closest model until they are the only models remaining. Instead, after wounds are done, Command Models are immediately pushed back to be within 1” of the closest surviving models in the unit or 3” directly away from the attacking unit if they are the only models left alive. This may sometimes cause a combat to break apart if enough wounds are dealt. Units that begin a Combat Phase engaged with an enemy unit may always attempt to Pile in and Attack, even if when Activated they are greater than 3” away. Once the number of wounds suffered by a model during the battle equals its Wounds characteristic, the model is slain. Place the slain model to one side – it is removed from play. Some warscrolls include abilities that allow wounds to be healed. A healed wound no longer has any effect. You can’t heal wounds on a model that has been slain.
  • Page 4 - CASTING SPELLS Add the following to the second paragraph: Wizards may attempt to cast spells when engaged (within 3” of enemy models), but any spell which directly targets an enemy unit may only target models they are engaged with. Beneficial spells may only be cast on allied models or units engaged in the same combat. Wizards are considered unable to draw line of sight out of the combat for spells that are neither beneficial nor offensive. Add the following to the end of the section:
  • Summoning: Units Summoned during the Hero Phase may not be activated until the start of their controlling player’s Movement Phase.
 

Demian

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Messages
1,248
#35
@ztlambe Those additions to the core rules were... in a PDF we saw around here some time ago, I remeber them =D

Regarding the game itself, those core functions may be what the whole AoS system needs to fine-tune the in-game experience, however I'm focusing more on how to make rules that encompass army building as a whole, so that Tournament players feel encouraged to bring whatever army they want within certain limitations, and still perform comparably equal to others, leaving the most to skill and the least to game factors that break the game.

@Malisteen I agree that having bonuses and "penalties" for using Named Characters and cross-Compendium models is more like a preference than an actual need, and could be let go in a Tournament ruleset, however, as you suggest, we would have to ban / limit models on a specific-basis and I fear this would turn intio Yu-Gi-Oh! with models that people have, but can't use.

Re-making (or editing) PDF's rules would make for a much simpler way to make limitations, so that the game doesn't feel again like your rules + faq'd. We can make alterations to the Warscrolls as we like now, even asigning points or any other system we prefer.

More playtesting is needed, for sure, and from all warscrolls, I agree, but I would like for people to be able to include any model they want, just in a form that makes Your in-game choices win the game, not those shamble forward every turn, charge every turn and roll dice until you win armies we are seeing so often now.

By the way, Mannfred was redeemed for me yesterday, because Archaon took Vlad's head with the Slayer of Kings, Vlad returned behind him, and Mannfred flew into a frenzy for all his crimes commited in End Times, Gheistvor took 3 wounds off the Everchosen, and his Sickle-Glaive another 2, leaving Vlad open for the killing blow.

I love Manny again :D

(Moral of this little story is, no model is undefeatable now in AoS. You send a Daemon Prince against a block of Skeletons, he's going to get hurt in return... a lot!)
 

Malisteen

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#36
I'm not as big a fan of these. Many of the changes or restrictions feel somewhat arbitrary and just too much.

There was a GW event thrown some time back that ran the below composition rules along with a few other changes, but I liked them quite a bit:

The Armies For every 25 counted wounds you may take:
• 4 Warscrolls
• 8 Wounds of models with the Hero keyword (only 60% can be spent on a single model, rounding up)
Works alright in higher point games, but if you play any low end 25 wound skirmish games then this is unnecessarily restrictive to ogre players. Considering that everyone is new to this game, imo early events should focus on smaller games that play faster, so how the rules work at the smallest incarnation matters.

• 6 Wounds of models with the Monster keyword
• 5 Wounds of models with the Warmachine keyword
Feels kind of arbitrary. Additionally, some armies have cool heroes, monsters and warmachines, but some armies focus on one or the other of these themes, and imo that should be catered to rather than blocked. Basically what I'm getting at is that I think a larger shared pool of 'limited' scrolls or wounds that combines heroes, war machines, and monsters is a better way to go than separate limits applying to each. Like, no more than half your points may come from those categories combined, or something like that.

• All models with 10 or more wounds must be from the same Compendium as the General. Regardless of Wound Totals
I don't know. I like the idea of mixed chaos mortal/daemon forces, or tomb king/vamp counts, or w/e. And the compendiums have enough internal synergy that I don't think arbitrary restrictions on this front are necessary. Just say the army must come from the same 'big four' category (order/disorder/death/chaos).

[/quote]
• All unnamed Heroes are 0-2 choices and may not be taken more than twice.
[/quote]
I'm still not convinced this is necessary. Most of the theoretically abusible abilities are command abilities that are for the most part restricted to your general anyway, requiring you to sink your whole army gimmick into getting multiples (via settra or whatever) anyway, so... I guess this just feels unnecessary to me.

• No more than 35% of the army’s total Wounds may be models with the Fly special rule.
Considering that fly doesn't actually mean you move any faster than other models, and melee control areas still apply, this feels entirely arbitrary and unnecessary to me.

• When a unit exceeds 10 models, receive 2 models for each that is purchased with wounds. i.e. a unit that begins at Five, 1-wound models, would cost 10 wounds total for a unit of 10, but only 15 wounds for a unit of 20.
sounds somewhat arbitrary, and abusable. Better to just put a cap on total number of units.

Otherwise the rules were changed to as follows:
  • Page 2 - BATTLE ROUNDS Remove Initiative from the Game.
Arbitrary. Unnecessary. This is an important new aspect of the game and nobody has played it enough to say if it's even a problem. It's just different. If you're at risk of your opponent getting two turns in a row, then you've already had more turns than them, turns that you can use to prepare for that possibility. This change more than anything indicates house rules based on knee jerk reactions rather than experience or necessity, and imo that is a very bad place to be starting from.

  • Page 3 - COMMAND ABILITY Change the section to read: In your hero phase, your general can use one command ability. All generals have the Inspiring Presence command ability, which they may use any number of times per battle. If they have one, your general may use each printed command ability on their Warscroll once per game.
Again, arbitrary, unnecessary, cannot be based on experience, smacks of knee jerk judgments.

  • Page 4 - PICKING TARGETS Add the following section: If the attack is being made with a Ranged Weapon in the Shooting phase additional requirements apply: Units with any models engaged with enemies (within 3” of an enemy model) may not perform shooting attacks in the shooting phase. Special Rules which specifically allow for Shooting Attacks to be made in the Combat Phase (such as the Skull Cannons’ Grind their Bones, Seize their Skulls ability) circumvent this limitation. When targeting an enemy unit with models engaged with allied models, only those which are greater than 3” of an allied model are eligible to take Wounds. These models must be the closest to the firing unit, who cannot shoot through allied models. When assigning the Wound Pool, should the closest model to the firing unit be within 3” of an ally, or be an ally, all remaining Wounds are discounted and the attack ends Look Out Sir!: Hero models without the Monster keyword within 3” of an allied unit cannot be targeted by ranged attacks unless they are the closest model to the firing unit. When attacked by a ranged attack, after rolling to wound, but before making saves of any kind, the Hero may make a Look out Sir! Roll. On a 4+ an allied unit within 3” (who is not engaged in close combat) immediately takes any saves they are required to take as though they were the initial target of the attack.
again, too soon for this major a change, and too disruptive to the core rules of the game. Putting wounds on closest models is an especially terrible choice that goes against deliberate design. Suddenly you're forced to hide your banners and musicians? Or actually go ahead and include all musician/standard units, which the core rules allow but that there's no reason for because you choose casualties anyway? Casualties from the front was and is terrible in 40k, there is absolutely no reason to be grafting it on to age of sigmar, what a terrible thing to do. No wonder these rules think shooting is too good and need to be nerfed if they're doing that. When one arbitrary house rule forces another, that's a bad sign.

Something may prove necessary to address the ease with which warmachines designed to damage units of many models can instead be used to pick out and assassinate non-monstrous heroes. However, there's no need for complicated look out sir mechanics if you're already making those models untargetable in the shooting phase.

Likewise, if shooting into/out of close combat becomes a problem (which I'm not at all convinced it is yet, personally), I think mitigation (penalty to hit for firing unit, or bonus save on targeted unit) would be a better solution than an outright ban.


  • Page 4 - MAKING ATTACKS Change Step 4) Determine Damage to read: Once all of the attacks made by a unit have been carried out, each successful attack inflicts a number of wounds equal to the Damage characteristic of the weapon. Most weapons have a Damage characteristic of 1, but some can inflict 2 or more wounds, allowing them to cause grievous injuries to even the mightiest foe, or to cleave through more than one opponent with but a single blow! In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same To Hit, To Wound, Rend and Damage characteristics, and must be directed at the same enemy unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls, and finally all of the save rolls; then add up the total number of wounds caused. This is the Wound Pool for the attack
Is... is this even different from the actual rules?


  • Page 4 - Inflicting Damage Change the section to read: After all of the attacks made by a unit have been carried out, the player commanding the target unit resolves the Wound Pool by allocating the wounds to the closest model to the attacking unit. Sometimes it will be unclear which model in a target unit is closest to the attacking unit because there is no discernible difference between the attacking unit and several models in the target unit. If two or more models are equidistant from the attacking unit, the owning player chooses which model is dealt the wound. The model is treated as being the closest model and remains so until either the attacking unit’s attack ends or the model is slain. When inflicting damage, if a model is allocated a wound, it must be allocated all remaining wounds in the pool until either it is slain or no more wounds remain to be allocated. When assigning wounds, Unit Command models are always treated as not being the closest model until they are the only models remaining. Instead, after wounds are done, Command Models are immediately pushed back to be within 1” of the closest surviving models in the unit or 3” directly away from the attacking unit if they are the only models left alive. This may sometimes cause a combat to break apart if enough wounds are dealt. Units that begin a Combat Phase engaged with an enemy unit may always attempt to Pile in and Attack, even if when Activated they are greater than 3” away. Once the number of wounds suffered by a model during the battle equals its Wounds characteristic, the model is slain. Place the slain model to one side – it is removed from play. Some warscrolls include abilities that allow wounds to be healed. A healed wound no longer has any effect. You can’t heal wounds on a model that has been slain.
No no no no no. Why is letting defending players assign the casualties as they want so terrible? It's such a better system. It makes more sense (why wouldn't the next guy over pick up the banner when the bearer is killed?), it plays faster, it's friendlier to modelling, it's way less confusing than this garglemess. No.

  • Page 4 - CASTING SPELLS Add the following to the second paragraph: Wizards may attempt to cast spells when engaged (within 3” of enemy models), but any spell which directly targets an enemy unit may only target models they are engaged with. Beneficial spells may only be cast on allied models or units engaged in the same combat. Wizards are considered unable to draw line of sight out of the combat for spells that are neither beneficial nor offensive. Add the following to the end of the section:
Unnecessary. I mean, why bother? What's the point? Where's the need?

  • Summoning: Units Summoned during the Hero Phase may not be activated until the start of their controlling player’s Movement Phase.
The only new rule I actually agree with, although these rules still don't address the problems of summon-spamming armies adding tons of wounds to the game and throwing the whole thing out of whack. And if we restrict summoning to a pre-defined sideboard or summoning pool, then chain summoning stops even being a problem.

I think the goal of any rules or restrictions we work out should be to address a demonstrated need, and to me too many of these changes don't, imo


**********************************

I've boiled down my suggestions to a bare bones system:

nevermind, even more streamlined version in next post
 
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Malisteen

Master Necromancer
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Joined
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Messages
2,134
#37
Further revision/boiling down of my suggestion, since there's no reason to restrict number of units (or even require models to be assigned to individual legal units at all) in the collection:

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Choose X. Each player selects a collection of X war scrolls, and X times (16 or 18, needs testing) wounds. There are no duplicate scrolls, and models do not need to be sorted into particular units. For instance, your collection might include 60 skeletons with three sets of command, with the intent of deploying or summoning up to three units of 20 skeletons. In your collection that would be one war scroll, and 60 wounds. If you wish to have any formation (or terrain, if allowed, see below) war scrolls available to use, those DO count towards your collection's war scroll limit.

During deployment, you may deploy up to X units (again, note distinction of 'units' and 'war scrolls'; 3 times 20 skeletons is three units, but still just the one skeleton war scroll), and no more than X times 12 wounds total. 12 is chosen to make collection-to-deployment ratios easier, and also things easier for ogre players - by the time X is 3 they should be allowed to field 2 ogre units and one ogre hero. X times 10 doesn't allow that, and X times 11 is awkward for the ratios.

Remaining models are in reserve. Effects that bring new units or models to the table (rather than restoring killed models, which would bring them back from the casualty pile) must take their models from those reserves. killed models are placed aside as casualties, and not returned to reserve.
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optional restrictions / variants:

* if you want to restrict armies to particular factions, then you might limit collections to one of the 'big four', or even one of the individual subfactions.

* if you wish to limit named characters or monster heroes, then no more than one of any named character may be included in your collection. If you think named characters need to be further discouraged, though I'm not sure this is necessary, you could have them count as two scrolls when building your collection.

* if you wish to limit large models in general, though I'm not sure this is necessary, then you could say that no model in the collection may have more than X times 3 wounds (3 because by the time X is 3 ogre players should be allowed to field their ogre heroes, imo).

* if you wish to limit heroes/monsters/war machines on the table, and I do think this might be necessary, then you could say that no more than half (rounded up) of the units deployed, or no more than half of the wounds deployed, or both (my recommendation), may come from these categories.

* if you wish to allow custom terrain, then let each player include terrain scrolls in their collection, and allow them to trade their first unit deployed to place a terrain piece (more than 12" from the opponent's deployment zone and more than 6" from other terrain) instead. Maybe make a terrain piece count as 5 wounds from collection or deployment? I don't know. I still haven't looked that hard at the individual terrain scrolls.

* there are currently no bonuses for fielding 'core' units or penalties for not fielding them. I don't really think this is an issue, and I don't think it's worth worrying about it unless it proves to be one in practice. If it does, you might allow extra wounds in the collection or deployed army or both if some reasonable portion (a quarter? a third?) of the total wounds come from 'core' units. ie: collection may have 16 times X wounds, or 18 times X if at least a third of all wounds are in 'core' units. You may deploy 10 times X wounds, or 12 times X if at least a third of all deployed wounds are in 'core' units.
 
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