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LoN: Magic / Rituals / Books of Nagash

Uziel

Vargheist
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
689
#76
Names: Check.

Rituals:

Yes, I'd like to see the rituals tied to the living element/cult only. This is good for dispersing the power within the army for one thing, and it also goes a long way towards broadening the theme a bit.
I think the Captain should be dumped to be honest. In an army of the dead and cultists, I don't really see a very fitting place for him. A Hero type Priest is much more fitting (and I'm not talking about a warrior type priest of Sigmar or Ulric here mind you) for the army overall. As we'we discussed before, a Cult of Nagash won't be a warrior cult by nature, so his mortal servants don't really have a good justification for being all that martially minded, at least not at the Core level.. I can see justification for some assassin types and the like, but mostly they would be scribes, smith apprentices, skilled laborers etc.

The only unit from 7th ed that the captain could really have been an natural fit for was that fast cav unit anyway... Also, I thought we were letting go a bit from the previous version made here, and thus I don't see a strong need for the captain to be a "default" character to begin with...

I still like the Lesser/Greater rituals idea better, where 1 hero level priest allows you one lesser ritual to be played, while a Lord priest allows 1 greater (or perhaps two lesser) ritual(s) to be used. It is simple for one thing, and lets face it, only very rarely would you see multiple priests in the list after all. I do get what your idea is though, and I like it from a pure fluff perspective, but I like to choose the simpler method if there is a choice.

Susurration of Deathly Spectres:

I know one cannot be too literal as far as the spell fluff goes DoN, but I still think the spell is too "broad" in definition, and I think the removal of all positive skills, and then particularly Unbreakable will be looked very unfavourable on by other players... Also, when you can't really well justify why this is affecting a unit of Demons or Undead from a fluff perspective, it doesn't help to sell it.
Units with the Unbreakable rule are rare for a reason, and they typically cost a lot for that very same reason. Having a quick fix spell to remove this, along with any other positive bonus that an opponent has paid lots of points for as well, is not something that will make the list popular to play against, which means in the long run, we get far fewer games. It is also a spell that is very hard to pin down casting value-wise, as it has such diverse effects. Another thing, an ability such as Frenzy, has both bonuses and penalties that go along with it, and then what happens?

I know we need a Hex spell, but I think cancelling Steadfast, along with some other effects, due to a unit being plagued by "spirits" is a much more balanced idea, and it won't be looked so unfavourably on, since it is only a bonus which one has under certain conditions anyway.
This will also help us against horde armies such as skaven, goblins, etc, which we can't match in number. Skaven Slaves could suddenly become a very unhealthy choice against us... especially as we could raise the dead afterwards... :)

Visions of Foretold Judgement:

The spell itself is ok as such. A little on the booring side perhaps.

I do have an idea for a combined augment/hex spell, which could have a much better overall synergy effect with the legions I think.
Not sure of the name yet, but what I'm thinking is that it thins the border beween life and death (or their respective realms), granting the dead an increase in either S or T if cast as an augment spell on a friendly unit, or a similar penalty if used as a hex spell on an enemy unit. It could even be a remain in play spell. As augments, we already have WS and Quickness boosts, but it could be nice to increase the chance to wound etc as well... If it sounds interesting, I'll try to get it done over the weekend. Have a game against Ogre Kingdoms with the Bloodline Legacies project tomorrow.
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
689
#77
Here is a suggestion for an alternative augment/hex spell:

"Instert name here"
Cast on X+


Broad fluff idea: The spell weakens the borders of reality between the realms of the dead and the living, causing the already dead to become stronger, while the living to become weak and feeble.

If cast at a friendly unit, this is an augment spell, but if cast at an enemy unit, it is a hex spell, with a range of 24" in both cases.
If successfully cast at a friendly unit, the unit is granted a +1 bonus to Strength and Toughness stats until the beginning of the caster's next magic phase.
If successfully cast at an enemy unit, the unit suffers a -1 penalty to its Strength and Toughness stats, until the beginning of the caster's next magic phase.
The Wizard can choose to have this spell target either all friendly or all enemy units within 18". If he does so, the casting value is increased to X+.


While at first glance, it won't seem to matter all that much if one decides to target a friendly unit or an enemy one, but that is before one takes into account the possibility of multiple units on one side, fighting a lone one othethe other side..

Haven't had time to look too much into the casting values etc, but what do you think of the basic idea?
 

The Dread King

Moderator
Staff member
True Blood
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Messages
1,897
#78
You could even have a third power level (like the fireball spell) where all units, enemy or friendly, get the effects you described above within 12" (another range, e.g. 18", might be good, but we don't want to make this OP).

I think it's a great idea, Uziel; sorry for being absent for a while (I didn't have enough time for the Legion, but things have changed, and now I should be able to post here again). Working on magic has never been my forte in alternative list building, but this will hopefully allow me to improve a good deal.
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
689
#79
D.K:

The three levels idea for the spell might actually be a good idea for it D.K, but affecting both friends and enemies at the same time might get to be a bit OP...
I see nothing wrong with the three levels idea however, assuming we get the casting values "right" and so on. :)

Welcome back btw. Good to have everyone we can with us.
 

The Dread King

Moderator
Staff member
True Blood
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Messages
1,897
#80
Yeah, the range being 18" for the spell if it affected friends and enemies could be OP, but I was thinking of the classic 12" for the highest level, or even X number of D6".

Alternatively, you could have it at 18" or even 24" affecting both friends and enemies, but you could say that the caster had to choose whether to have this spell affect strength OR toughness (perhaps you could choose a different one for friends and a different one for enemies, but I reckon the best option would be to choose whether to affect toughness for enemy and friendly units, or strength for enemy and friendly units).

Here are some examples:

"Insert name here"
Cast on X
[Highest power level]
This spell has a range of 24" and affects both enemy and friendly units. You can choose whether or not to affect the strength or toughness of these units (you do not choose per unit; the spell will have an overall effect based on the values above). Enemy units suffer -1 to the selected stat until the start of the next friendly magic phase. Friendly units gain +1 to the selected stat until the start of the next friendly magic phase.

"Insert name here"
Cast on X
[Highest power level]
This spell has a range of 18" and affects both enemy and friendly units. All friendly units are affected by +1 to strength or toughness until the start of the caster's next magic phase - choose which stat you want to be boosted for ALL friendly units. All enemy units are affected by -1 to strength or toughness until the start of the caster's next magic phase - choose which stat you want to be boosted for ALL enemy units.

Thoughts? This requires much editing and rewording; it needs to have a good deal of relation to the lower levels of the spell, but I'm sure a third power level could work.

Edit: if you wanted to change the Incantation of Reaping name, DoN, then why not just call it Incantation of Deathly Reaping? It makes the name longer, more warhammer-ish, and does not upset the link to the Nagash trilogy very much - after all, 'deathly' is not a particularly significant word, but it does clarify the difference between farming and the undead.
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
689
#81
D.K:

Both your suggestions are workable D.K, but making it a default AOE spell, will also make its casting value skyrocket.. Especially since it affects both parties and multiple units on each side.. The question then becomes if we want something like this to be our most powerful spell of not? Personally I like the "Great Awakening" spell to have that position, as the premier game changer spell in our arsenal, since it fits best with Nagash's own strategies and so on.

Again, I suggest you read the Nagash trilogy before supporting a name change to the Incantation of Reaping. It IS a big idea to rename the spell that basically is the origin of necromancy and nagash's rise to power.. Also, looking at the spells of the BRB, it doesn not exactly make it more Warhammer-ish... Just sounds bit more gaudy or over-elaborated, when compared with the other typical spell names.

If our goal was to make a Nagash army list that in a couple of years time only veterans of the game can relate too, then it wouldn't matter as much. But if we want to make a list, that is going to have a chance to relate to newer and upcoming players (who in my view are blessed by getting a an elaborate and detailed Nagash story in in their hands from the very beginning), then we can't screw around with such important details for little or no good reason.

On a small side note relating to fluff such as this; I'm in the process of reading the Time of Legends novel about the War of The Beard at the moment (Spoiler Alert), and it seems as if GW/Black Library is doing a lot of work to make the initial warhammer stories a lot more detailed and believable. An interesting fact here, is that the three dark elf wizards that was captured by the Nehekharans and turned over to Nagash, was in fact an instrumental part of Malkith's plan to sabotage relations between Dwarfs and Elves in the old world (even killed an ancient RuneLord). My point is, that all through the books released over the latest years, you will find facts that are interwoven like this, subtly tying the stories together as a whole, and "re-creating" the rather poor tapestry of history we had before.
Like it or not, this WILL be the canon setting for most players of today, just like before my time as well (before 4th ed), the canon lore was something else. I still have old warhammer books with lore in them that I like in some cases, but which are outdated and don't fit in today's warhammer world for one reason or another. This can't be helped. Would I base an 8.ed army book project on this however? Not ever if I wanted it to have a somewhat broad appeal, and hopefully gain some recognition by today's players.
This is why I argue so hard to get away from the 4th undead book purist angle as well, because I think it is a big mistake not to work with the newest (and most detailed by far) resource material we have.
Remember, that once the concept of Nagash was new to Warhammer as well, but one quickly adjusts, especially if granted a boon in the power department...
End of rant :)
 
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