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LoN: Magic / Rituals / Books of Nagash

Uziel

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#51
I have to answer a bit short here, as I'm at work pulling a double shift

Supreeme Lord of Undeath
-Higher Cast version:

What if we remove all the current ideas and replace them with something like the following:

-Casting Value X (don't have any reference material at hand at the moment)
-The Wizard may re-roll any dice from the effects of any spells he cast (basically what TEclis once used to have).
-Wizard causes Terror.


Catechism of Unholy Vigour

Non-CC version:

The spell will have similarities with Dance Mcabre yes, but I find it hard to justify moving fast models like cavalry, flyers and the like twice their march move across the board, and I think most opponents will disapprove of being able to charge due to the spell as well.
We are in need of a movement spell to some degree, but I'm not really a fan of granting too big a bonus to a single unit. There is also the fact that the higher casting values typically provide either a AOE effect f the spell, or has increased range, especially for augment spells. An AOE version of your movement bonuses would be much too good.
But yes, as I said above, it does resemble Dance Macabre outside CC, but we get to quick reform! AOE quick reform is one nice tactical bonus to have after all.. There was also the above mentioned dispelling problems by making it a Remain in play spell which was to work in the movement phase..

What do you think D.K, Chaos Born?
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
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#52
A good idea there, but I think it should be incorporated, so we end up with:

The Supreme Lord of Undeath – 10+
As the unbelievers decried His very existence, so did the power of the Dark Lord make itself known, casting those unworthy to the dust
From the eighth book of the Cult of Nagash, Chapter 5, verses 5-6

For the remainder of the magic phase the Wizard has the Loremaster: Necromancy special rule. In addition he may add a free additional PD to any necromancy spell he attempts to cast.
The wizard may choose to cast the higher version of the spell on a 25+. If successfully cast the Dark Lord himself projects himself through his vassal to take direct control of the events. The spell Remains in Play with the following effects:
The Caster gains bonuses from the lower version of this spell. In addition he may choose to re-roll the dice when casting a spell, however he must re-roll all the dice if he chooses to do this. The wizard must abide by the second result.
The Caster gains +1 to all casting, dispelling and channelling rolls (cumulative with other bonuses) when casting spells from the Lore of Necromancy, and finally also causes Terror.

Nice and potent, but still fickle with how unreliable magic can be. I am happy for this to represent Nagash's presence in the Legion if this is ok?


Catechism of Unholy Vigour
Not sure what you mean by twice their march move? My suggestion states that in their movement phase they can march move (like normal cav and flyers?), and on the higher version of the spell they can triple their movement. As I suggested, I know that is a bit too much for flyers, hence I suggest this spell does not affect flyers. Basically the version I am looking at is the following:

Catechism of Unholy Vigour – 7+
As the foolish defied the might of the Dark Lord, thus he did drive forth his faithful to strike them down in His Name
From the seventh book of the Cult of Nagash, Chapter 16, verse 9

Once cast this spell lasts until the start of the next Legion magic phase. Choose one unit with the Undead of Nagash special rule within 18”. For the duration of this spell the unit may march move in their movement phase as normal as per the BRB, in addition they may choose normal charge reactions and may reform as per the main rulebook, with the exception they are not required to pass a leadership test.
The Wizard may choose to cast a more powerful version of this spell on 16+, in which case the target unit may triple its normal movement rate when moving. Alternatively the Wizard may choose to have the lesser power affect all Undead of Nagash units within a 12” radius (range must be measured at the start of each movement phase).
This spell may not target units that have the flying special rule.
 

Chaos_Born

Master Necromancer
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#53
I've also been a bit busy.

Amplification of Immortal Alacrity: Like it, but I think it might need to be increased in casting value a little. Up 2 points?


Catechism of Unholy Vigour: I agree that it's too similar to VDM. I like the idea of removal of march restrictions as a RiP spell, but that doesn't really mesh with the AoE nature of the in combat version of the spell.

I'll try and give more input over the coming days but right now I have little time


Edit: Wow I got majorly ninja'd
 

Chaos_Born

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#55
Okay sir, please don't be cross:'(

I like both of those spells DoN, although I think the lower version of The Supreme Lord of Undeath needs to be a touch more expensive to cast. Perhaps if it was just one of those two bonuses then 9/10+ is okay, but I'd look at more like 13-15+ for the two
 

Disciple of Nagash

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#56
I'm ok with increasing the casting value. It is meant to be the most powerful spell with Nagash making his presence known so it makes sense.
 

Uziel

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#57
Supreme Lord of Undeath

I am a bit concerned that the spell has too much too it, not as much as in terms of power but rather in stackable pd and dd bonuses. With a +1 free PD per casting, Loremaster, the ability to re-roll the effects of any spell cast, combined with the Necromancy Lore special rule and terror, it becomes too much and too complicated. I'd personally choose to drop the +1 bonuses and possibly even terror. +1 free PD is already quite the boon and I don't really see the need for more. +1 to Dispel os more of a high elf thing, and perhaps not that fitting, at least not to a degree that I see why it HAS to be included. The +1 to channeling is nice, but channeling we seem likely to get elsewhere in the list, and so I'd just drop that for simplicity's sake. I'd even consider dropping Terror, but that sort of depends on the fluff description and what the spell actually does etc..

I think we have to keep in mind that we're not dealing with nagash at anything near his peak here for one thing, and secondly he is most likely (unless someone feels particularly suicidal and mounts a siege of nagashizzar) leages upon leages away from the battle, and third, he doesn't have the power of his black pyramid nor the warpstone to consume to perform any kind of possession at that level, and nor is he a deamon with the kind of presence they can temporarily get by possessing the likes of a wizard in the warhammer world.
Unless we're doing a "It's a miracle, Nagash s back at full strenght and then some!" -type list, then I don't really see how a necromancer calling upon the aid of far away and crippled nagash, could eclipse the likes of Teclis present and accounted for at the battlefield..

Just saying that we have to keep things in perspective here, and not just stack away on all bonuses which sounds like something that Nagash could have pulled off in his prime if he was present and accounted for. Personally I think that my proposal for changes above still makes it too powerful, but at least it is what you wish for, and it becomes much more uncomplicated.

Chaos Born:

I'm very open for discussion on casting values proposed :)

Catechism of Unholy Vigour

I realize that my proposal for changes are similar to Dance Macabre, in that the effects are divided into CC and non-CC effects, but this is really the only way to build the spell, without breaking any precedent set from official sources. As you yourself stated, casting a higher version spell don't typically change the effect, just increases the range or grants AOE.
We also need a good second buff spell, and we don't really seem to have that much space in the 7 long list of spells used in 8 ed.
I'm also concerned about bringing back charging as part of movement, or by making a spell that wouldn't really work until the enemy had two attempts to effectively dispel its effects from ever taking place (due to the turn order), and also about charging as part of a spell, or being able to move typical hammer units too far in a round, especially if charging is an option.
 

Disciple of Nagash

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#58
Sorry Uziel but I have to disagree. I dont think it makes the spell too complicated, and it is much more toned down from the first version or indeed the idea if having Nagash as a special character. I agreed we needed to compromise and I think this has been achieved, I personally want some character with the spell to make it stand out from the norm. As it will be the only way for Nagash to have a presence I want it ti stand out.

I also have to disagree over the fluff if Nagash as there is various conflicting fluff, some showing that even in his present form he is one of the most powerful wizards in the world.

As for the potency, as long as as the casting value is reasonable I think it is fine.

Catechisn of Unholy Vigour
I dont understand your points here. The latest suggestion I posted included the CC option and removed charging as an option?
 

Uziel

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#59
DoN:

Just with +1 free PD and the re-roll casting result alone, he becomes a combination of a second gen slann AND the teclis of I think it was 6th ed.
Add loremaster and the range benefits from the spell lore, and we're talking one pretty damned powerfull wizard, especially concidering that he is not even present physically on the battlefield.

"One of the most powerful wizards in the world" is a pretty vague definition for one thing, and I think the above effects alone more than just puts him on the top of the proverbial leaderboard in that department...
We have to keep in mind that nagas's most powerfull spells, which has granted him his fearsome reputation, was long and complicated rituals, powered by either warpstone consumption or the power stored for hundreds of years in the black pyramid. Just saying that we hace to put nagas's power into contxt as well. This does not diminish nagash in any way in my book, it just makes his stuggles more "realistic" from a fluff standpoint.

Nagash's true power has not really come from within nagash himself (as no wizard in warhammer really has a bulilt-in power), but from from three major sources:
1. Painfull sacrifices using the incantation of reaping to boost himself
2. The power slowly building up and being stored in the black pyrmid
3. Warpstone.

A "doamrnt" nagash wouldn't have access to any of theese.

Catechism of unholy vigour

It was a more general description of tbe challenges of making a movement spell don.

While the removal of rewmain in play removes the two chances of dispelling situation (which s good), this version still only leaves with a pure movement augment spell, which in this list with 2x summoning spells and a possession spell will leave us with very few spell slots for everything else. This is why I favor the cc and non cc option. The list really needs all the augments for cc that we can get.
I don't like the granting the fleeing option, as we already (assuming we don't scrap the legions) one unit specifically designed for this, and also, by granting superior movement and charge responses, we sort of remove one of the major undead weaknesses entirely. Not sure I like this.
I'm also not convinced that the higher casting version should give us two options as to the effect, as chaos born had concerns about.
Also, what does 3x movement speed mean? Applicable only to marching? 3x movement stat?
 

Disciple of Nagash

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#60
Uziel - This is the version I am thinking of:

Catechism of Unholy Vigour – 7+
As the foolish defied the might of the Dark Lord, thus he did drive forth his faithful to strike them down in His Name
From the seventh book of the Cult of Nagash, Chapter 16, verse 9

Once cast this spell lasts until the start of the next Legion magic phase. Choose one unit with the Undead of Nagash special rule within 18”. For the duration of this spell the unit may march move in their movement phase as normal as per the BRB, in addition they may reform as per the main rulebook, with the exception they are not required to pass a leadership test. If the unit is already in combat the unit instead gains ASF and the Swiftstride special rules.
The Wizard may choose to cast a more powerful version of this spell on 16+, in which case the target unit may triple its normal movement rate when marching (this does not apply to charging). Alternatively the Wizard may choose to have the lesser power affect all Undead of Nagash units within a 12” radius (range must be measured at the start of each movement phase).
This spell may not target units that have the flying special rule.

I have made some amendments which I think works.


As for Nagash, yes I know the spell is very powerful however I still think it is justified. Working on the only rules of Nagash from the 4th edition, he was a level 5 wizard when combined with his book of Nagash. This was without any of the aforementioned boosting him. I am fully aware all those things enabled him to cast a massively powerful spell and gave him almost godlike status, however that is nothing like what this spell does.

As I said before, as long as the casting level is set correctly I think the spell works, and is a fair compromise not to include Nagash as a special character.
 

Uziel

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#61
DoN:

Ok, I thought this was the one, since it was the one from your last post:

Catechism of Unholy Vigour – 7+
As the foolish defied the might of the Dark Lord, thus he did drive forth his faithful to strike them down in His Name
From the seventh book of the Cult of Nagash, Chapter 16, verse 9
Once cast this spell lasts until the start of the next Legion magic phase. Choose one unit with the Undead of Nagash special rule within 18”. For the duration of this spell the unit may march move in their movement phase as normal as per the BRB, in addition they may choose normal charge reactions and may reform as per the main rulebook, with the exception they are not required to pass a leadership test.
The Wizard may choose to cast a more powerful version of this spell on 16+, in which case the target unit may triple its normal movement rate when moving. Alternatively the Wizard may choose to have the lesser power affect all Undead of Nagash units within a 12” radius (range must be measured at the start of each movement phase).
This spell may not target units that have the flying special rule.


As to the one you posted in your last post, it is looking fairly good. Just some quick thoughts:

-Casting Value might perhaps need to go up to 8+, due to the 18" range and CC abilities (looking at it and comparing it with Vanhel's)
-Legions turn, should be changed to start of Caster's next magic phase.
-The first sentence should be XXX is an Augment spell...
-I see you removed the Flee option, which I think is good. Reform could be changed into Quick Reform I think.
-Not convinced we should have two options for a more powerful version of the spell. I think an AOE effect on its own is more than good enough, and also in line with how spells seems to work in 8.ed.
-Flying units should be perfectly "targetable", just limited to using their ground movement.

Supreme Lord of Undeath

I know you want Nagash included somehow DoN, which is fair. Instead of making a new 4th ed version, I think this is a good idea, I'm just not sure making his magical presence from dormant far away on his throne, eclipse the likes of Teclis or something like a Lord of Change present on the opposing side of the battlefield. I seem to recall Nagash being described once as the closest a mortal being has ever come to the power of a greater demon, but this version makes the likes of a Lord of Change seem very weak in comparison, which to me is a bit odd.
I also don#t quite think people have thought it through what getting to re-roll the effects of all spells mean.. That's not just number of hits, to-wound rolls and so on, but also numbers raised/healed, augments bonuses granted, etc, etc.. It has a lot of implications, and with +1 free PD per spell, once this spell is successfully cast, it is more than enough to make most foes quake in their boots.
I like to err on the side of caution, and then adjust things up if needed, rather than wiping a battlefield clean of foes due to some unbeatable unit/spell/character, etc, then not have anyone enthusiastic to play against the list again.
But, I've spoken my mind and argued my case as best I can, and you know in the end I bow to your decision DoN.
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
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#62
Catechism, I do agree with most of your points apart from the two options for the higher level. I do not see any problem with it, it is certainly not too powerful, and is in-line with the feel of the Legion having more tactical options. Based on these comments I would therefore suggest the below revision

Catechism of Unholy Vigour – 8+
As the foolish defied the might of the Dark Lord, thus he did drive forth his faithful to strike them down in His Name
From the seventh book of the Cult of Nagash, Chapter 16, verse 9

This is an augment spell that once cast lasts until the start of the next caster’s magic phase. Choose one unit with the Undead of Nagash special rule within 18”. For the duration of this spell the unit may march move in their movement phase as normal as per the BRB, in addition they may Quick Reform as per the main rulebook, with the exception they are not required to pass a leadership test. If the unit is already in combat the unit instead gains ASF and the Swiftstride special rules.
The Wizard may choose to cast a more powerful version of this spell on 16+, in which case the target unit may triple its normal movement rate when marching (this does not apply to charging). Alternatively the Wizard may choose to have the lesser power affect all Undead of Nagash units within a 12” radius (range must be measured at the start of each movement phase).
Units with the Flying special rule must use their ground movement value when calculating the results of this spell.

Supreme Lord of Undeath – it appears to be another misunderstanding with the wording. I was certainly not intending that all dice for any spell can be re-rolled, that is certainly OP, I simply meant the casting dice may be re-rolled (so not the results). Here is a revised version which I have tweaked a little bit as well.

The Supreme Lord of Undeath – 12+
As the unbelievers decried His very existence, so did the power of the Dark Lord make itself known, casting those unworthy to the dust
From the eighth book of the Cult of Nagash, Chapter 5, verses 5-6

For the remainder of the magic phase the Wizard has the Loremaster: Necromancy special rule. In addition he may add a free additional PD to any necromancy spell he attempts to cast.
The wizard may choose to cast the higher version of the spell on a 25+. If successfully cast the Dark Lord himself projects himself through his vassal to take direct control of the events. The spell Remains in Play with the following effects:
The Caster gains bonuses from the lower version of this spell. In addition he may choose to re-roll the free additional PD when casting a Necromancy spell, however must abide by the second result.
The Caster gains +1 to all casting, dispelling and channelling rolls (cumulative with other bonuses) when casting spells from the Lore of Necromancy, and finally also causes Terror.

I was thinking of perhaps changing the free PD re-roll to:

In addition the caster may re-roll the results of the spell (not the PD used to cast) when casting The Immortal Legion and Awakening the Revenants. My thought on this was simply that Nagash would likely have more innate control of the Undead, be more likely to effectively raise a higher number?
 

Uziel

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#63
Cathecism of Unholy Vigour

Looking fine, but we should change "in addition", to "OR" as far as the quick reform goes, so that one don't thin get to march first, then quick reform afterward.

The supreeme Lord of Undeath..

Well, that little misunderstanding certainly clears things up a bit. :)
I was talking about the spells effects initially (as per the old teclis reference).
In general, I'd rather have a spell with few simple but powerful rules, rather than a powerfull spell consisting of heaps of lesser rules to make it powerfull due to the sum of is parts. It is not always easy, but I think we will do well to not make things overly complicated.

I have to consider the re-roll of power dice for a bit, as that has a lot of implications to it too, one of which is twice the initial chance of getting a irrisistible force result..
 

Uziel

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#64
Ok, back and having had some time to consider things a bit. Might as well continue here, as it seems it will be pretty much up to me and you DoN to keep things going creativly.

Supreeme Lord of Undeath

I think we both agree that the lesser version is pretty ok, with the granting of +1 free PD per casting and Loremaster (necromancy).
This will:
-let us possibly get of lots off spells, be difficult to dispel, and also let us potentially get off multiple of the same spell in the same magic phase, due to multiple casters with the same spells.
Overall, this is a very potent combination. Not sure about the casting value though (haven't really considered it that much).

For the greater version

This is where we disagree. You favor stacking of multiple "average" benefits, while I wish for a single more potent one.

I admit that there might be a reason as to why GW removed the re-roll of all the effect dice on the spells of teclis, but it is just speculation as to why. It is certainly potent and might be too much so, especially in combination with the loremaster and +1 free PD per casting.

While none of your suggestions are OP by themselves, I'm having a bit of problems accepting so many bonuses due to a greater version of a spell, and as Chaos Born pointed out earlier, having new effects on higher level castings is not the norm, and I certainly don't think we should do this on all spells.
Re-rolling all casting dice is OP, but on the other hand re-rolling the free dice is a bit meh.. for such a high level spell.

I've been trying to come up with a balanced compromise, and this is my suggestion:

The Supreeme Lord of Undeath
Cast on X+

input fluff here DoN

Remain in Play. The Supreeme Lord of Undeath is an augment spell cast upon the Wizard. The Wizard gains the Loremaster (Necromancy) special rule, and adds +D3 to all his casting attempts for the duration of the spell.
The Wizard may cast a more potent version of this spell, granting him both the Loremaster (Necromancy) and Loremaster (Death) special rules, as well as +D6 to all his casting attempts. If he does so, the casting value is increased to X+.

This makes it pretty simple to remember, and also balances the higher and lower casting values nicely. It also brings back another Loremaster ability, which I might not be such a huge fan of myself, but something I can live with since it is not a unique one from a particular army book.
Note that tt is also a Remain in Play spell for both versions.
 

Disciple of Nagash

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#65
I agree that we have some differences on viewing this spell. Under normal circumstances I do support the way of thinking to keep it simple, if possible with single scalable effect. However where I do think differently, is that this spell should be something special. This is the Legion of Nagash. I appreciate your viewpoint that you would prefer not to have Nagash himself involved so much, but there are many people (myself one of them) that one of the main reasons in designing this list is to have Nagash present in some form. Now I did agree to look at alternatives other than actually having Nagash himself pop up for a scrap now and again, and thus the idea for the spell.

Considering where we have come from, and also the fact the spell is the only representation of a main focal point for the Legion, I see no harm in making this a one of a kind special spell, where is has effects outside the norm. Yes it may be more complicated / potent, but as long as it is balanced with the casting level in mind, I think it can work. I understand that as a full Lore the spells have to be designed with other warhammer Lores in mind, but I think we need to step outside that box for this one spell.

Now in regards to the re-rolling the effects of the spell, I think that could be a viable option for the second tier. We have no idea why Teclis does not have it, but the fact he had it at one point suggests that it was thought feasible. As it is potent, it could replace other effects, so:


The Supreme Lord of Undeath – 12+ - Remains in Play
As the unbelievers decried His very existence, so did the power of the Dark Lord make itself known, casting those unworthy to the dust
From the eighth book of the Cult of Nagash, Chapter 5, verses 5-6

Once cast the Wizard gains the Loremaster: Necromancy special rule and he may add a free additional PD to any necromancy spell he attempts to cast.
The wizard may choose to cast the higher version of the spell on a 25+. If successfully cast the Dark Lord himself projects himself through his vassal to take direct control of the events
The Caster gains bonuses from the lower version of this spell. In addition he may re-roll any dice when determining the effects of Necromancy spells, however he must abide by the second results.


I think this could work?
 

Chaos_Born

Master Necromancer
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#66
I too think that that would work DoN, but wording would need to be changed to clarify the meaning of 'determining the effects of necromancy spells'.

Other than the wording though, I think that that as a spell looks good
 

Uziel

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#67
The Supreeme Lord of Undeath

While I personally think my previous suggestion is the most balanced and inline with 8.ed, I'm happy to give this version a try as well. :) If it proves that it was a very good reason for removing this ability from Teclis in the first place, we can always review after game-testing, and try the other alternative. Pretty happy that you went for the single potent bonus, instead of a group of medium ones.

Some issues with the wording though. It should be stated that this is an augment spell for one thing, and the effects might need an example for clarification purposes.

Just a thought.. Do we really need a lesser version of this spell at all? I'm not saying we should remove the bonuses, but if this spell is going to stray from the norm in any case, do we need a half-assed summoning version?
Another thought: we're seriously looking at a bit of a spell shortage here, with two summoning spells and this one on top. Could it be an idea to remove the secret of this unique spell to one of the books of Nagash?
In this way we get a much needed spell slot back, and it also makes this "if you mess with me i'll call on big daddy for help" a bit more rare in the sense that not everyone is qualified for such a feat.

On a related side-note; could it be an idea to make all the books of nagash grant bonuses to specific spells (and at the same time let you choose said spell to ensure the bonus is not wasted due to not randomly getting said spell) or get access to unique spells?
This will allow us to increase our spell pool, allow us to tailor our list for specific tactics while at the same time preventing the books from becomming stackable with similar bonuses from magic items etc..
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
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#68
Actually I was having that thought myself Uziel; we can incorporate this in addition to the normal spells. I also just don’t see a minor underlying (like a level 1) being able to channel such a spirit and survive. It would make sense that the senior wizards only have the authority to be able to summon the Dark Lord. Plus I do appreciate this spell is not to everyone’s tastes, so if we make it part of a purchase, then only those who want it can choose it. I also agree with combining it into a single potent spell, so the revision would be@

The Supreme Lord of Undeath – 25+ - Remains in Play
As the unbelievers decried His very existence, so did the power of the Dark Lord make itself known. His magnificent spirit made use of those most loyal, unleashing his might and casting those unworthy to the dust
From the eighth book of the Cult of Nagash, Chapter 5, verses 5-6

This is an augmentspell that once cast the grants the caster the Loremaster: Necromancy special rule and he may add a free additional PD to any necromancy spell he attempts to cast.
In addition the caster may re-roll any dice when determining the results of any Necromancy spell. Note this is not the PD used to cast the spell, but any results from the successful casting of the spell. The caster may choose which dice he wishes to re-roll (he does not have re-roll all), however he must abide by the second result of the re-rolled dice.

I think that works quite nicely. I would be happy to have this incorporated into one of the Books of Nagash, but I think we should finish the spells before discussing them more in detail. However the idea of extra spells is certainly interesting and would be very unique. We could perhaps do some kind of bound spell that powers itself but is auto-cast, (the book has to recharge). Hmm, look forward to discussing those elements.

So for the time being it looks like we have resolved getting Nagash involved xD I am going to update the first post with the various discussions, so we can see where we stand and what we still need to develop.

Edit: The first post in WIP, I will need to finish updating once I get home.
 

Uziel

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#69
One way to keep the Supreeme Lord of Undeath spell limited to the Lords, is to keep that particular "book" at 55+ points. Pretty simple. Don't like to apply strikt level limitations, as even a lvl 1 can use the same number of PD after all, so it gets a bit hard to reason why they can't summon the same as a lvl 4 in gme terms.

I like the single level power a lot more than the split one. Looking good.

And yes, it is a bit of a "special interest" spell as you say DoN. Some like to make their own characters and stories, and if you get this spell, as well as the signarture spell, then you sort of become forced to attempt a 25+ spell at one time, and if successful, your precious character become somewhat overshadowed by nagash.. Not everyone is such a fan of the nameless pawn idea on the actual gaming table

Looking forewards to the update. I haven't gotten the now WoC book yet, but from what I understand there are lots of spell that are both hexes and augments, depending on the target.. Maybe this could be a way to finish off the spell list.
 

Disciple of Nagash

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#71
Ok, so I have updated the first post with the changes, which I think are looking snazzy xD Spells will need reordering once complete, I also would like to keep the naming similar

What I mean is a lot of the spells seem to be something of something (Incantation of Reaping for example). From a fluff perspective I’d like to have all the spells name like this, so currently we have:

0 - Incantation of Reaping
1 - Whispering Spirits
2 - Visions of Doom
3 - Amplification of Immortal Alacrity
4 - Catechism of Unholy Vigour
5 - Immortal Legion
6 - Awakening the Revenants

So suggested new names:

0 - Incantation of Reaping
1 – Susurration of Deathly Spectres
2 – Visions of Foretold Judgement
3 - Amplification of Immortal Alacrity
4 - Catechism of Unholy Vigour
5 – Scriptures of Immortal Legion
6 - Summoning of Imperishable Dead

Not sure on the first one, needs to be Incantation of something Reaping. Suggestions?

As for spells 1 & 2, I am also working on the rewording of those spells.


In the meantime I think we can also start looking at the rituals. So from previous suggestions I think the Rituals should work along the following principle:

Purchased
Power should be scalable on two things, the number of magic users and the number of sacrifices.
Caster wise I think something along the lines of, one wizard level equal one point. The number of total points has an effect on the power of the ritual, so lower level casters can work together to boost a ritual, higher level can manage on his own to equivalent effect.
Depending on this, if we make it so all the wizards work towards one ritual boosting its effects, then perhaps we should limit the rituals to one per game, each equal in power but substantially different effects?
The number of models sacrificed (which should be limited so it doesn’t go overboard) can also be a factor.

Thoughts?
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Messages
27,916
#72
I have also done some tinkering on the two remaining spells:

Susurration of Deathly Spectres - 9+
At His command the power of our Lord commands His immortal spirits, and they fill the thoughts of his foes with words fear and undermining. All who stand in their path are rendered powerless, such is the might of our Lord.
From the second book of the Cult of Nagash, Chapter 12, verses 4-6

The Susurration of Deathly Spectres is a hex spell that once cast Remains in Play. When successfully cast choose one enemy unit within 12”. The target unit may not benefit from any special rules or magical item items that positively affect the unit for any Leadership based test or attack. The includes any rules the unit has as standard in their army entry, Frenzy, the General’s leadership or re-rolls conferred by the Battle Standard Bearer. However they will still be affected by any negative rules or magic items that affect Leadership based tests or attacks.

Examples
A unit of Dwarf Slayers affected by this spell would not benefit from their normal Unbreakable special rule, and would be subject to all normal Fear, Terror and break tests. A unit of Lizardmen Kroxigor affected by this spell would not benefit from the Cold Blooded special rule (as it benefits them), however they would still be subject to Stupidity.


Any units with the Unstable special rule are still affected, however for any results that would cause the unit to flee they will instead suffer a number of wounds equal what they failed the test by as per the Unstable special rule.
The wizard can choose to cast the spell at 15+, in which case the spell affects the target unit are instead permanent, and cannot be dispelled or removed by any means.


I put an example in to make it clearer and also upped the casting values / lowered the range as I think this can be extremely potent.

Still working on the next one....
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
689
#73
Disciple of Nagash said:
Ok, so I have updated the first post with the changes, which I think are looking snazzy xD Spells will need reordering once complete, I also would like to keep the naming similar

What I mean is a lot of the spells seem to be something of something (Incantation of Reaping for example). From a fluff perspective I’d like to have all the spells name like this, so currently we have:

0 - Incantation of Reaping
1 - Whispering Spirits
2 - Visions of Doom
3 - Amplification of Immortal Alacrity
4 - Catechism of Unholy Vigour
5 - Immortal Legion
6 - Awakening the Revenants

So suggested new names:

0 - Incantation of Reaping
1 – Susurration of Deathly Spectres
2 – Visions of Foretold Judgement
3 - Amplification of Immortal Alacrity
4 - Catechism of Unholy Vigour
5 – Scriptures of Immortal Legion
6 - Summoning of Imperishable Dead

Not sure on the first one, needs to be Incantation of something Reaping. Suggestions?

As for spells 1 & 2, I am also working on the rewording of those spells.


In the meantime I think we can also start looking at the rituals. So from previous suggestions I think the Rituals should work along the following principle:

Purchased
Power should be scalable on two things, the number of magic users and the number of sacrifices.
Caster wise I think something along the lines of, one wizard level equal one point. The number of total points has an effect on the power of the ritual, so lower level casters can work together to boost a ritual, higher level can manage on his own to equivalent effect.
Depending on this, if we make it so all the wizards work towards one ritual boosting its effects, then perhaps we should limit the rituals to one per game, each equal in power but substantially different effects?
The number of models sacrificed (which should be limited so it doesn’t go overboard) can also be a factor.

Thoughts?
My immediate thoughts are, yes, the spells could use a more consistent naming as you mentioned. I suggest making the names shorter though.. I really wouldn't like to change the incantation of reaping name in any case, as it is THE origin spell of necromancy in the nagash trilogy. Adding another word/adjective just undermines the link to the trilogy.
another thing, by shortening the spell names, they become simpler to say and use in gaming terms as well. Most warhammer spells tend to have 1-3 words in their names if I remember correctly.
Shorter names also sound less pretentious..

Apart from the Incantation of Reaping however, I don't really have any strong feeling regarding the actual names of the rest of them.


I'd really like to see the Rituals being tied to the cult leaders and the living element of the army, and not to the Wizards (whom already have the necromantic aspect, including the "books" of nagash). All the options in the same hands tend to make boring lists for one thing.. It also makes sense that the rituals are conducted by the cult leaders, as they are not considered spells in any case...
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
689
#74
Disciple of Nagash said:
I have also done some tinkering on the two remaining spells:

Susurration of Deathly Spectres - 9+
At His command the power of our Lord commands His immortal spirits, and they fill the thoughts of his foes with words fear and undermining. All who stand in their path are rendered powerless, such is the might of our Lord.
From the second book of the Cult of Nagash, Chapter 12, verses 4-6

The Susurration of Deathly Spectres is a hex spell that once cast Remains in Play. When successfully cast choose one enemy unit within 12”. The target unit may not benefit from any special rules or magical item items that positively affect the unit for any Leadership based test or attack. The includes any rules the unit has as standard in their army entry, Frenzy, the General’s leadership or re-rolls conferred by the Battle Standard Bearer. However they will still be affected by any negative rules or magic items that affect Leadership based tests or attacks.
I have three concerns with this spell DoN:

1. Albeit a minor one, but how does these specters differ from lets say a Spirit Host from a VC army? What I'm getting at, is could spectres actually do this, when they can't do anything like that on the battlefield?

2. It leaves a little room for arguing which special rule is good or bad.. Not sure how relevant this is though, but it could be a potential problem.

3. Not really comfortable with the effect of removing the likes of Unbreakable.. This is supposedly so unique, that scaring them by any means should be nigh impossible in the first place.. Not a big exception of "exception" rules such as this. Can you imagine some measly spirits scaring a Demon Prince to take a quick example? There are simply too many cases where it just won't make any sense..

How about removing any Steadfast bonus instead? and perhaps Random Movement (D6). Remain in play?
Makes more sense.. Confusing foes so that they loose coherency... It also makes it more directed at large units, whom should be more open to such vulnerabilities in the first place...

That said though, I agree that we do need a hex spell like this in the list. :)
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Messages
27,916
#75
Names - If you aren't bothered too much by the names I would like to go with my suggest, keeping Incantation of Reaping the same.

Rituals - We haven't discussed or implemented any idea of a cult leader? So it makes it a bit difficult work out how to apply them? Are you thinking of an alive character who leads the living elements? We could perhaps amend the Captain character, as there is no reason why the leader would not have a martial aspect as well as being the spiritual leader. If we are going along this line, then yes I can see tying to them instead of the wizards, but I still would like some kind of scalable aspect depending on the number of cult leaders involved and the number of sacrifices. I suppose this also is a good thing to encourage use of the alive units / characters.

Susurration of Deathly Spectres
I think you are getting to tied up in fluff. Remember the fluff there is from a fanatical cult book, designed to state the awesomeness of Nagash, not the actual mechanics of the spell.
Background wise this is a magical spell with particular affects, so it is not just a normal spiriting popping up and saying boo! It is magically amplified / twisted etc and so should not be assumed to be another summoning spell. It also means why DoC / Undead are affected, as the magic affects them on a basic level. So I am not necessarily saying that a Daemon Prince is going to be scared by a measly spirit, but that he is being assailed by a magical attack that is affecting his very basic magical nature, leaving him confused etc. Like most spells, an interpretation of the effects will sometimes be necessary.

With that in mind, I feel the effects of the spell are fine based on the casting value (perhaps the second version needs a higher value). It is short range and the normal version can be dispelled. I think removing things like unbreakable is fine under those circumstances, and really works well in the innate psychology factor of the army.

The only point I can see being an issue is whether a rule is good or bad, however looking over the rulebook and armybooks, with the examples given I think this should be a small issue. The best way to check this would be through playtesting, which I would prefer before making any changes to the core rules for this spell.


Visions of Foretold Judgement
Not too sure how much amendment this one really needs, apart from stipulating the selected spot must not be an enemy unit? A higher version could just be D6+6 range for the spell?
 
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