• Roll-up! Roll-up! Come one and all the fantastic Turning the World to Darkness painting competition. Welcome to any skill level, you can find out more here.
  • It's time once again to ferret out those murderous vampires in a new VAU - Vampires Amongst Us. A cross between Cluedo and a roleplay, sometimes gory and often hilarious! Find out more here.

LoN: Magic / Rituals / Books of Nagash

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Messages
27,917
#26
Ouch! Talk about being shot down……:(

Well I liked my idea anyway….spoilsports xD I suppose I can understand that it is perhaps a bit too much for a basic spell. Uziel suggested we make the Disciple of Nagash into a special character, which my ego has nodded vigorously in agreement to. Perhaps we could incorporate the possession I suggested into that in some fashion, as I personally still want Nagash present in some fashion other than some distant influence. It is one of the key points for me. If we can compromise this being viable on a special character, I would be willing to concede it under the magic.

Books
Good to see we have agreement on this xD

So onto the plethora of ideas from Uziel xD

Incantation of Reaping
Fluff will need to change xD Other than that I quite like this spell, simple and effective. I would also be quite happy to have it as the signature spell, providing that the Lore Attribute changes to include Possession somehow, as that is a very unique spell.

Will of Nagash
I’ll be honest, I don’t think this works well. Even with channeling, this attribute will hardly ever go off which just weakens the Lore. Especially as the player has no choice in this (with it not being a spell) I just don’t see it working. Plus it seems a meh for direct involvement from Nagash anyway. So I say nay to this one. Personally for the attribute I suggest a reworking to make it more effective as here:


Eyes of the Dark Lord – Lore Attribute
Fluff
At the start of the Legion of Nagash magic phase, any users of this Lore may choose to possess any infantry or cavalry model with the Undead of Nagash special rule within 18” by taking a leadership test. If successful the caster counts as being stood at the targets position for the remainder of the magic phase for the purpose of casting spells. In addition, should the caster suffer a miscast whilst successfully possessing another model, do not role on the miscast table. Instead the possessed model suffers a result of ?? from the miscast table and the caster is forced back into their own body and may not cast for the remainder of this magic phase.


Amplification of Immortal Alacrity
Interesting idea, though I am not sure in the scheme of things how much +2 to WS / I is really going to add. Especially on the basic troops, most of the time it is just going to maybe bring them upto par with average troops, in some cases still won’t match. The higher level version with the ASF and +1A is good, but I think the base version needs a bit more personally.

I would prefer that the base adds in ASF (with the reforms / change of tactics) and the higher range being a radius and/or substantially increasing the Initiative to a point where re-rolls become likely. Depending on the casting level the extra attack may be still possible.

The premise of the idea is good (and needed), I think compared to other spells out there it just needs a bit more oomph.


Awakening the Revenants
So yes for the concept, we can use this to replace the Curse of Reanimation. (In regards to the Revenants, please note nothing is set yet. A new core thread will be started shortly, however discussions still need to take place. Therefore for the time being we should assume this spell relates to some kind of zombie, and the exact unit will be finalised at a later date).
However the implementation is unwieldy certainly. It could possibly be overpowered, especially in larger games. Cast at a higher level you could end up with doubling your army in one spell, especially if you had a lot of Nagashi units to start off with. How to do it without it being too complicated is awkward, however I think we need to look at:

Nagashi – certainly keeping track of your own troops should be feasible, and the number of Nagashi in the army shouldn’t be too high.
After that, however about something along the lines of D3 per enemy units under half strength / D6 per enemy units wiped out?
The sum of those should be easier and more limited, based on that we may want to adjust the roll to resurrect to maybe 4+.

The Immortal Legion
I think we need to look at how this affects non- We Are Legion! units. Unless we are going to have quite a few, we are lacking in raising power. I agreed with the higher level for the WAL! units, if they are used right they should not have characters and will need the extra boost. However for those who are not WAL! I think it should be D6 plus the casters level.
As for the second level I really like the regeneration idea, however I think we should also have a second level of healing for units that are badly damaged. So 3D6 + casters level for WAL! units / 2D6 + casters level for non-WAL! units. An increase in range would be ok as well, with maybe an increase in casting value to 15+

So reworded looks something like:

The Immortal Legion is an augment spell, that targets a friendly unit with the Undead of Nagash special rule within 12".
Unit’s with the We Are Legion special rule regains a number of models equal to 2D6 + the caster's Wizards level for Infantry, or just the caster's Wizard level in the case of all other unit types. Unit’s without the We Are Legion! special rule regains a number of models equal to 1D6 + the caster's Wizards level for Infantry, or half the caster's Wizard level in the case of all other unit types This can never take the unit beyond its starting size, nor can any model have its wounds increased beyond the number of wounds on its profile.
Wounds are regained in (insert something similar as the "Resurrecting Fallen Warriors" from the VC book).

The Wizard may cast the spell at 15+ which adds 1D6 when rolling the number of wounds for infantry or +1 wound to the total for other unit types. Alternatively, if a unit is at full strength already, the Wizard may grant it the Regeneration special rule, with the Remain in Play property.

Other than that, I like the flexibility. The Lore of Nagash is meant to be more “useful” so I see no issue having some redundancy in there.


Finally, onto Rituals.

So firstly, I think we must have the rule that there is a requirement for certain characters to be present, so priests etc. Secondly, what are Acolytes? I don’t recall these anywhere? Do you mean just someone with the Nagashi special rule? Also Necromancers? They are not in the army anyway?

I don’t want them tying to the books, I think they should be tied to a character. However they should be scalable, i.e in big armies you should be able to do more. I agree that the sacrifices should “pay” for the rituals somehow.

I suggest we have a couple of different “levels”. By that something along the lines of:

Ritual A: Requires one priest etc to “cast”
Ritual B: Requires two priests working in concert to “cast” would be more potent / kills more Nagashi

Otherwise you either have a ritual that OP in smaller games or is useless at higher levels. This way as the army grows, the priests can work together to pull off better results (sacrificing more Nagashi in the process).

As for the ritual ideas:

Doom of Quatar
Like the idea (I think the fluff needs to be inline with the old spells, as in read from the unholy book). However the results are not worth it. One wound per unit, possibly? Plus it might not equal the number of Nagashi dead? I could loose 12 Nagashi and kill some skaven slaves? I know there is always a risk element, but this is too much in favour of the enemy for me. I would prefer something like:

The LoN player may sacrifice 1D6 / 2D6 / 3D6 models with the Nagashi special rule. The total number of wounds rolled may then be allocated by the LoN player to enemy units, maximum of one per unit. The affected unit takes one automatic wound, no armour saves allowed. If there are more wounds than units, any excess wounds are wasted.


Shroud of Locusts
Looks good, quite like this one. Situational but worth it against the right armies. Could possibly have other players screaming OP at use if the -1 last for four turns mind you xD


The Reaping Sacrifice
Again, not sure if this is worth the downsizes. The chance of “maybe” getting one PD for a number of kills, plus cannot move etc. I don’t think this is one that works personally.


I suggest we complete the Lore of Nagash and also agree on the structure for the Rituals, before we then look at possible Rituals themselves.
 

Chaos_Born

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Jan 17, 2012
Messages
2,078
#27
The idea of including a character who can be possessed in the way you expressed before is a good one (providing it's only for one turn of the game: Nagash was very good). It's not so much the power of the spell that was an issue, it's the fact that it was really complicated for a spell.

Eyes of the Dark Lord:
I like it, frees up the contested sig spot and keeps possession in such a way that it's always accessible. However, I think that miscasts should be rolled as normal, but damage is centred on the possessed model. This way effects like dimensional cascade and power drain aren't completely avoided by the caster, which IMO wouldn't make a whole lot of sense from a fluff perspective.



Amplification of Immortal Alacrity:
I think an initial level, cheap(ish) to cast spell that brings WS and I of the legion's crummy troops up to the level of decent equivalents (so +2 to each) is a very good spell. After all, if you can cast this every turn then you even out the combats, but should have numerical advantage. A higher level that gives ASF as well is good, I think +1 attack might be pushing it because the increased casting cost associated may put one off casting it. But I suppose for coolness factor, it's worth it.



The Immortal Legion:
I still think adding a regen giving mode is too much. Not because regen is really powerful or anything, but because secondary modes of spells shouldn't be really different to the first. Yeah it won't be game breaking, but it is creeping up the power of the magic phase in unprecedented ways. Spells are often redundant, that just happens, even with magic heavy armies like high elves.


I'll not comment on the rituals as per request
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
689
#28
DoN:

Sorry about that. It was not my intention to be harsh in any way, but just to get across the point that for me to have to "unfold" a two foot scroll and tell an opposing player with a grin that "I cast this, haha!" (evil chuckle) probably wont fly... If it is any consolation, you're not alone with letting enthusiasm run a bit amok from time to time though.

Glad you liked the Disciple idea DoN. The cult of nagash, which will be featured in numbers for the first time, would have had to have a charismatic individual leading it to get people to join. A "death cult" is perhaps not the most appealing of cults in nature after all, so some encouragement from the top almost has to be a factor for the cult to have flourished.
Besides, as a long time head of this project, I think a "tribute" is long overdue. Just don't get all high and mighty and expect that I want quarrel with you if I don#t agree on something! I always speak my mind. :)

Incantation of Reaping:

-I didn't do the chapter and verse thing on purpose. I thought I'd leave that up to you DoN. I have no problem making that change, as long as the fluff description of the spell is left something similar. It is after all a pretty well established spell from the Nagash trilogy.
Glad you liked the spell though.

Will of Nagash:

-I still think it is a decent way to get the Will of Nagash to have an effect on the battlefield. He is after all severely reduced, and attempting to influence a battle half a world away is not something even the likes of Teclis could contemplate.
As for the balance of it, this can easily be fixed by reducing tthe power pool requirement to 11, or even 10 possibly.
This was intended to combine the wishes of having the magic of Nagash influence things more directly, as well as incorporating the Possession idea to some extent.
What I liked about it personally, was that it required conditions to be in place for nagash to work his influence (lots of winds of magic), otherwise his power in the old world would already be pretty unlimited, the fact that it could be influenced by the cultists/rituals on the battlefield and that is was uncomplicated by not needing stats etc. The only fix needed, was that a Wizard level would have to be added, due to the nature of some of the necromancy spells.

Eyes of the Dark Lord

-From a pure Possession angle, I quite like what you have done here DoN. I'd ignore the cav and infantry reference though, and just leave it at Undead of Nagash model. Overall, I think it is a good lore attribute. :)
The only problem is that we're already going to have quite a battle for the 7 spell slots in this list, so I can't really see there being room for any kind of Nagash type summoning spell. Yes, there is the skaven dreaded 13'th spell example, but to be honest, I really don't see that that spell gets to retain its special status when the rats get an 8 ed book either.

Amplification of Immortal Alacrity

-I think you are underestimating this spell here DoN. +2WS and I would mean that an Eternal Legionnaire would have WS 5, and I 4, making them quite formidable. You have to remember that this also protects them from getting easily hit in 2 consecutive close combat phases, as well as making it easier for them to hit...
ASF as an initial bonus, in low WS, but more importantly low I troops, is not all that great alone, as you can pretty much forget that re-roll vs anything other than the Lizardmen..
The more powerful could perhaps be reduced to +1 attack as an addition. I quite like this option, just on the basis of the Staff of Damnation. +1 Attack, or an AOE effect of the basic version seems perhaps a bit more balanced.

Awakening the Revenants

-Doubling your army is a bit of a misconception. At best, you'd get a huge zombie unit, and that alone has not won many a VC player a game.. There are also lots of conditions for successfully getting a huge unit raised, as you would have had to have caused a lot of casualties, "preferably" on both sides. Also, multiple castings of it would by nature be of limited value, due to the lack of corpses etc..
Overall though, this is perhaps the spell that is the hardest to balance well, but also the most rewarding as a concept by a long margin, but from a fluff and a tactical aspect. It also serves to separate us from both the TK and VC army list in a fundamental manner, which I like.
I'll see if I can propose a re-write tomorrow.

The Immortal Legion

-Ok, not having a spell able to heal most proper undead was a bit of an oversight on my part. with so many living elements, the zombies sort of taken care of, that left the "bone" legions, but presumably thhere will be other choices as well, especially in the Special and Rare departments.
Just make sure that it only works on Undead of Nagash at least, and not the living element of the army.

I'm actually going against my initial idea here. As Chaos Born stated, this kind of flexibility is a bit unprecedented, and I don't want to make it too flexible. I'll do a re-write of the spell tomorrow (it's getting late here).

The Rituals

-Scalable rituals sounds fine, and it is pretty simple to handle it really. Divide it into Great Rituals and Rituals, then give the Lord type Priest option access to a great Ritual, and a Here type access to a Ritual... That balances things out pretty well...

The Doom Of Quatar

-The fluff change is fine. I was expectng it. I just wroote something down to get across what I based it on and so on.
Results not worth it?? You might want to rethink that DoN... In a 6 round game, every enemy 3 Wound Warmachine will be destroyed by this alone by turn 6.. Not to mention this will reduce their effectiveness long before that, due to crew casualties.. Also, how often have you just managed to give something like a Shaggoth 2-3 wounds in a game. Killing that shaggoth will be a lot easier with this ritual in play.. No, it is not going to waste large blocks of infantry, but it will sure matter just about everywhere else..
After rethinking, I'd say that it was perhaps a bit too good.. I have some suggestions for toning it down though.. I#d insist this was made a Great Ritual if divided as such...

Shroud of Locusts

The idea is very much inspired from the trilogy (as is the Quatar one above), which I like. The number of turn is an easy fix though. Adjust as needed. :)

The Reaping Sacrifice

Not working? For a more defense oriented army, it is pretty damn awesome I think. Loosing an average of 3,5 x 4-5 point troops for a good chance of a P.D is not such a big deal. Plenty of more where they came from. If it is too harsh though, it could be reduced to D3+1 or something I guess. I for one, wouldn't hesitate to use it in an army of my own. :)
Remember, a 5+ chance, with a re-roll is not a bad chance to get the channeling to work, and that in a cult heavy army, you will have more units.
Also, it doesn#t stop you from moving, just marching, charging and reforming. Important difference. We could perhaps let it be used in melee though, the acolytes sacrificing themselves on the blades of their enemies for a similar effect..

btw, the Nagashi Acolytes were the previous "approved" cultist core choice I suggested. The cultist "pawns" as it were..
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
689
#30
Awakening the Revenants
Cast on 10+

The Necromancer uses his powers to twist and corrupt the spirits of the recently slain on the field of battle, binding them back into their former bodies, creating a horde of Revenenats with only one thing on their mind, to sink their teeth into the flesh, guts and brain of their former friends and allies…

When this spell is successfully cast, each player has to tally up the number of models from units that have been wiped out due to casualties in the battle so far from the Infantry and Cavalry unit types (from both sides). Do not count any models with the Unstable or Daemonic special rules.

Note down this number, and roll a D6 for each model in those units. On a roll of 4+, the model returns to the game as a Revenant.
Choose a point within 18" of the Wizard, at least 1” away from an enemy unit, and deploy all the awakened Revenants there as one unit, facing in whatever direction you want. Instead of making a new unit, Revenants may be added to an existing unit within range instead, even if the existing unit is in close combat.
Units used to successfully raise Revenants once, cannot be rolled for again and count as “removed” for the purposes of further castings of this spell.

The Wizard may cast a more potent version of this spell, allowing models all models as described above to automatically return as Revenants, with no range limit to where a unit of Revenants may be placed. If he does so, the casting value is increased to 25+.

-At first glance it might look the same, but with only whole units needing to be counted it makes it fairly quick and easy to keep it organized. Also did some slight adjustments. Note that it is now even harder to use still, as it doesn't help a whole lot just to get some casualties here and there. Even wiping out skaven slaves can be a bit of a hazzle after all.

Amplification of Immortal Alacrity
Cast on 9+
The Necromancer imbues his undead minions with the power of Shyish, granting them unnatural speed and skill, too better serve their undying lord.

Amplification of Immortal Alacrity is an augment spell with a range of 18” that may target any unit with the Undead of Nagash special rule. For as long as the unit is affected, it receives a +2 bonus to its Weapon Skill and Initiative characteristics.
The unit may also make an immediate free Reform, even if in close combat, following all the normal rules. The spell lasts until the beginning of the Caster’s next magic phase.

The Wizard may choose to increase the potency of the Amplification of Immortal Alacrity; granting a +1 bonus to Attacks to the target unit; Or he may choose to target all friendly units with the Undead of Nagash special rule within 12” of himself with the lesser version of the spell. If he chooses either of these options, the Casting Value is increased to 18+.

-I Think this is a fair and balanced approach. We give our self a little flexibility in choosing to focus on one unit, or grant a weaker AOE effect. Bot that common with such an option, but I still think it is quite balanced (at least good enoug to play tst properly before making any further adjustments). What say ye?


DoN: If you wish to keep the Lore Attribute as you suggested, instead of using my Will of Nagash proposal (after modification even), then I think perhaps letting the "Desciple of Nagash" special character getting access to a unique "Greater Ritual" could be one way to go to include the spirit of nagash somehow. Granted, he would not be the kind of looming presence over all his armies then, but I still think hat could be a way to do something cool and nagash oriented. Your call.
 

Chaos_Born

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Jan 17, 2012
Messages
2,078
#31
I agree with your whole last post Uziel, other than the application of Awakening the Revenants which I still don't like. The only thing I can think of doing is basing it off the turn number, other than that I think it is hassle and would never get included in an actual army book. Also, how do you count models that were resurrected (as of regrowth). What if the unit got 'removed', as of infernal gateway or some such? Dreaded thirteenth? It's a bit iffy in general and I think, although it's very cool, it's more effort than it's worth

I am still keen to include it in some form, but I don't think the number of models killed should be the trigger. As I said, turn number could be the factor, representing the casualties suffered over the course of the battle, however I could understand if that's unsatisfying.
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
689
#32
Chaos born:

The exceptions you bring up are valid points, but I still think it is very doable.
The thing I love the most about it, is that you either have to "sacrifice" your own living troops or work hard to slay your foes before you can use it to any battle turning effect.
Very much in the spirit of nagash, as is very clear in the trilogy. I suggest you read those books CB. The war nagash waged in nehekhara and the way he used his magic, ruthlessness and cunning is quite a good read from a tactival standpoint. You also get to know both nagash and arkhan a while lot better.

I don't like the turn based idea. It is fine from a pure gaming standpoint, but does carry with it too many illagical aspects and doesn't cater to the fluff. What happens when facing ogre kingdoms without any gnoblars? What happens when facing a demon army?

I still feel very strongly that this is both an interesting and inspiring way to go.
 

Chaos_Born

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Jan 17, 2012
Messages
2,078
#33
The fluff is no influence on my objection to the spell: can you think of another spell where you have to total up anything that's happened previously?
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
689
#34
Chaos_Born said:
The fluff is no influence on my objection to the spell: can you think of another spell where you have to total up anything that's happened previously?
Not at the top of my head, but It shouldn't really be that hard to look at which relevant units are gone, take a very quick look at the army sheet, and then add the units together. Most of us can manage the likes of "35 halberdiers + 20 handgunners + 20 Nagashi Acolytes" without it becoming a huge issue mathematically... The numbers are right there on the army sheet in black and white after all.
That kind of math I'll gladly do for that kind of ff interesting spell tactically any day. :)
As for things we all have to keep track of from previous rounds and so on, there are wounds on multiple wound creatures, characters and so on, so it is not as if the game doesn't have anything of the sort before.
 

The Dread King

Moderator
Staff member
True Blood
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Messages
1,897
#35
This army is the Legion of Nagash. It will be played by fans of Nagash. If we restrict the spell that incorporates Nagash into the army by limiting it to a special character, we are not doing the Legion's players justice, as they will practically be forced to take this special character, which they might not have taken otherwise. You could limit it to a character, and it would fit with the fluff and be cool, but limiting it to a SC? SCs are despised by many players and are banned from many games and tournaments. In my opinion, we can have Nagash in "Throne form," "ghost form," "mortis engine form", or incorporated in the Possession spell. Otherwise, he is not really very included in the army list. I think the most fun option for him in the Legion would be The Beast from 4th ed, but if we're not going to include him in magic, expect serious debating when we get to the special characters.
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
689
#36
D.K:

I don't really think we have to worry about tournaments to be honest :)
We could offcourse make the nagash possession thing a Greater Ritual, accessible only to lord type priests, and let the "disciple of Nagash" special character get access to one greater and one lesser ritual or something like that.
What I really don't want to see in the list, is some sort of a Nagash with a profile. It is the last thing the list need, as it makes the project by default appear as a elaborate excuse to go overboard with a special character (and he is not just any special character). People will take a quick look at him, scoff and get skeptical to the whole list, then overlook all the good aspects of the list. He makes a much better spider in the web type of character in my opinion.

I still like him for the final mission in a campaign though, based on his proper "resurrection", as here the whole setting can be modified to balance things out etc. :)

Btw D.K, if you're really craving to play the Nagash character, he can be found here: http://issuu.com/m4cr1ii3n/docs/warhammer_expansion_-_special_characters
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Messages
27,917
#37
I have to agree with The Dread King here. We have one big conflicting point: How is Nagash going to be present, and as such what impact will he have. I know it was one of my main things that he did have a decent involvement, more than just an influence of some kind, or he was a special character.

I therefore suggest we decide how we are going to include him, as it will have an impact here. Personally I would like one of the following:

- Possession type spell similar to what I posted. I am well aware that it is much more complicated than other spells, but my counterargument is that so Awakening the Revenants. Not to the extent of my suggestion for Nagash, but still more than other spells. When it comes to Nagash I think we maybe need to think past normal examples in this one instance.

- Nagash is a special character somehow, either like the 4th or as the special character created in the previous edition.


Eyes of Nagash / Will of Nagash
Uziel, sorry but I still personally do not like the suggestion of the Will of Nagash, as said above, I want Nagash to have more of an involvement.
CB - My main thing with the miscast was that the wizard shunted the effects to the model, so as that undead model would not have the skill to say dissipate the magic as per power drain, the model simply got affected worse case scenario, such as rolling 2 on the table? It would balance the attribute being very effective.


Amplification of Immortal Alacrity
I am ok with the latest revision. We can give it a go at any rate and see how effective it is.


Awakening the Revenants
I've mulled this over....and then mulled this over again. I can see both sides and it is difficult as I can see instances where it would be very cool and fun to use, but also where it a lucky roll in the fifth turn on the larger spell could bring back a ridiculous amount of models. Certainly in very big games, say 6K aside, the amount of models coming back could be mind boggling.

I think the only way we are going to resolve this though is to playtest it. I would say we agree on the fluff concept at least? So lets include the spell, and the rules unless someone has better suggestions. If in playtesting we find that too many models are coming back / it is proving to awkward we can always amend at that point.


The Immortal Legion
As long as we have the option to heal both WAL! units and the normal Undead of Nagash ones that is fine. Personally I think the rewording I provided should work ok both as a low and high level balance. I also really like the regen. Again I think we are getting too hung up on other armies. Yes our spells may be more flexible tactically, however we agreed in the concept that the Legion would have the benefit of superior magic and tactical options. Remember, we are going to loose in other areas. Already we are suffering from lack of direct damage spells.


Rituals
I'll leave the actual ones for now. However I think we can agree on the concept of how they work. So based on the above, here are the suggested changes


Lore Attribute - Changed to Eyes of the Dark Lord

0. Possession - Changed to Incantation of Reaping (Signature Spell)
1. Whispering Spirits - Remains (may need a better title)
2. Visions of Doom
3. Land of the Dead - changed to Amplification of Immortal Alacrity
4. The True Gaze of Nagash
5. Curse of Reanimation - Changed to Awakening the Revenants
6. The Great Awakening

I want to reword the Whispering Spirits and give it a better name, so will post that up shortly. The question is what spell The Immortal Legion replaces? Personally I think we should have that replace the True Gaze of Nagash, and then redo the Great Awakening into a spell that brings forth Nagash in some fashion. We could do a lower powered fashion, and then a higher level one that only level 4 wizards can cast, which brings Nagash forth in a more potent way?

The leaves Visions of Doom. Reading the spell, I think this works actually. It is nice and simple and could be surprising potent. A higher level could just have a leadership modifier or higher range.
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Messages
27,917
#38
Uziel said:
D.K:

I don't really think we have to worry about tournaments to be honest :)
We could offcourse make the nagash possession thing a Greater Ritual, accessible only to lord type priests, and let the "disciple of Nagash" special character get access to one greater and one lesser ritual or something like that.
What I really don't want to see in the list, is some sort of a Nagash with a profile. It is the last thing the list need, as it makes the project by default appear as a elaborate excuse to go overboard with a special character (and he is not just any special character). People will take a quick look at him, scoff and get skeptical to the whole list, then overlook all the good aspects of the list. He makes a much better spider in the web type of character in my opinion.

I still like him for the final mission in a campaign though, based on his proper "resurrection", as here the whole setting can be modified to balance things out etc. :)

Btw D.K, if you're really craving to play the Nagash character, he can be found here: http://issuu.com/m4cr1ii3n/docs/warhammer_expansion_-_special_characters
Uziel - those books are great - though I can't quite figure how to download the PDF?
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
689
#39
DoN:

It is no surprise of which side I'm on in this case. I think the army should be a Legion in the "Rebuilding Phase" kind of an army, as that fits the setting best, and lets st incorporate the army book in the setting, without doing any fundamental changes to the warhammer world. I just know that if the nagash influence gets too strong, others will shun playing us and the list will very easily carry the smell of a fan-boy list with it.
Not denying that we are all Nagash fans, but we can't do nagash justice without it becoming a big step back towards the Herohammer days. Your call DoN. If a special character is made in spirit of 4th ed, I'll just pretend he doesn't exist when I present the list to my gaming group, and make the needed modifications.

If Nagash is going to be present in some fashion, I also think it is better to tie that option to a greater ritual cast before the battle, than as a spell, or just to let him have more of an overall presence in the army (keeping an eye out on his Dark Lords perhaps?). By summoning him with a spell, he just becomes to "demonic" in my view.. A Ritual could be a massive sacrifice, which provides his corpse with a temporary power boost, allowing him to participate directly (even though I'd have to argue that he would be weaker than before at this stage).

I do have a little bit of an issue with powerful possession spell. Nagash is not a demon, which is what most people associate with the term and that kind of a mechanic. Another problem is "would Nagash risk his spirit taking form, and then perhaps getting killed again at this stage?? I just don't see him needing to take that kind of a risk to be honest.

Awakening of the Revenants:

I was sort of picturing this in stead of the great ritual, then perhaps the Immortal Legion replacing the Curse of Reanimation, then finally perhaps some sort of movement spell replacing the True Gaze of Nagash.

With access to both the Shadow and Death Lore, we're not exactly without access to magic missiles...

The Immortal Legion:

I still think Chaos Born was right here. I think getting access to regeneration can be done in another way, such as a unit with a bound spell option or similar. As it is going, I don't think we will fare poorly in the magic phase.
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
689
#40
Disciple of Nagash said:
Uziel - those books are great - though I can't quite figure how to download the PDF?
Try this link: http://www.scribd.com/doc/119609243/Warhammer-Expansion-Special-Characters I know you could download them before at least. I have most of them.
What is most amazing, is the speed at which he works I think. That's one effective man. Can't imagine he has a GF. hehe
Some of the books are good, and some are not very good I think. Aslo, I've noticed some undeservedly high stats here and there, particularly regarding S4 type human troops.
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Messages
27,917
#41
I appreciate your point Uziel, but that said many people will view a Legion of Nagash, without some element of Nagash as lacking. It comes down to personal preference, and as we have already seen here, there is obviously some call for it.

I do want to come to a viable compromise that makes us all happy, but at the moment the counteroffer so to speak was just casting a free spell, which from my perspective is far from the amount of influence to have Nagash involved.

A grand Ritual to bring him forth sounds like an excellent suggestion. In regards to possession, it is simply terminology. Some would see it as daemonic, others (such as me) would see it quite feasible that a spirit can take possession. Fluff wise as a spirit Nagash would be invisible to most, and with his powers most would lack the ability to destroy him. Even then if the host body looks like it is going to be destroyed, the fluff can be that Nagash has projected his part of his spirit / mind to oversee and the destruction returns him to his own body.
Even more fitting would be that the enemy simply does not know. After all, they only see an enemy wizard suddenly becoming more powerful, how will they know Nagash has taken over? This would be fitting, allowing Nagash to act at key points whilst remaining unknown to the world.

I'll have a go at a Ritual for this and see what is thought.


The Immortal Legion - As I said previously, I like the regen option for units that are full strength and would prefer to keep it.

Movement spell - Yes we certainly need one. I would suggest ours is a bit more potent as we lack in that area a little bit. So perhaps the unit can make a march movement as per their normal movement, allowing them to charge if within range?
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
689
#42
Disciple of Nagash said:
I do want to come to a viable compromise that makes us all happy, but at the moment the counteroffer so to speak was just casting a free spell, which from my perspective is far from the amount of influence to have Nagash involved.
Is this my Will of Nagash Lore attribute you are referring to?
In which case, that is a bit of a misinterpretation of it.
It, albeit temporarily and somewhat randomly, grants access to ALL Lore of Necromancy spells, has a HUGE potential range and allows one to cast spells with more than 6 PD, with no Miscast risk too it.
Even if the casting is failed, you can still cast with all your wizards as normal. This doesn't add up to an insignificant "free spell" in my opinion. It was just a matter of getting the "how often will it happen" balance right, and with the right build focusing on bonus PD and Channeling, it could very well become very powerful.

Immortal Legion:

your call. It is one of those things only playtesting will show if it is too good or not.

Awakening of the Revenants:

yes in a 6k per side battle, it could be dangerous, but on one hand, it doesn't really matter all that much if you face a unit of 100 zobies or 200 at that late stage in the game. also, IoN has a much greater potential in a 6K type game. Not that I imagine this will ever be an issue with a home-made project in any case.

Movement spell:

Not sure if allowing a charge is a good idea, but I'm not totally opposed to it either.. I'll reserve judgement until you've done the spell DoN.
 

Chaos_Born

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Jan 17, 2012
Messages
2,078
#43
Magical charging after a unit has marched is deemed by pretty much everyone to be broken. Make it a spell with great caution
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Messages
27,917
#44
Busy busy over the weekend!

Anyway, I had the following ideas for spells, not sure if they are any good or not:

The Supreme Lord of Undeath – 10+
As the unbelievers decried His very existence, so did the power of the Dark Lord make itself known, casting those unworthy to the dust
From the eighth book of the Cult of Nagash, Chapter 5, verses 5-6

For the remainder of the magic phase the Wizard knows all the spells from one of the following Lores (in addition to his normal spells): Necromancy, Shadow, Death or Dark Magic (refer to DE book). In addition he may re-roll any power dice used for casting spells that result in a one.
Level 4 wizards only may choose to cast the higher version of the spell on a 25+. If successfully cast the Dark Lord himself projects himself through his vassal to take direct control of the events. The spell Remains in Play with the following effects:
The Caster gains the bonuses from the lesser version of this spell, with the exception that he may choose two Lores to gain knowledge of.
The Caster gains +1 to all casting, dispelling and channelling rolls (cumulative with other bonuses),
The Caster may ignore any failed attempts at casting / dispelling, and continue casting / dispelling as normal.
The Caster causes Terror and any enemy units within 12 suffer -1 to their Ld (cumulative with other modifiers)

So for fun, had a go at creating a spell that is simpler than a full on possession, but still gives the flavour of Nagash turning up; i.e a very potent magic user. I included Dark Magic as Nagash did learn all that the DE had to teach (even if he preferred Necromancy) and thought it would be fun. I made in Remains in Play to so the player actually has time to make use of it and thus make it worth the 25+ casting value, and also gives the other player a chance to get rid of it in their casting phase.

Thoughts?

Catechism of Unholy Vigour – 7+
As the foolish defied the might of the Dark Lord, thus he did drive forth his faithful to strike them down in His Name
From the seventh book of the Cult of Nagash, Chapter 16, verse 9

Once cast this spell Remains in Play. Choose one unit with the Undead of Nagash special rule within 18”. For the duration of this spell the unit may march move in their movement phase as normal as per the BRB, in addition they may choose normal charge reactions (any units choosing to flee automatically pass the rally test).
The Wizard may choose to cast a more powerful version of this spell on 16+, in which case the target unit may triple its normal movement rate when moving / add double its movement rate to the 2D6 when charging. Alternatively the Wizard may choose to have the lesser power affect all Undead of Nagash units within a 12” radius (range must be measured at the start of each movement phase).

So this should work quite nice tactically, and the basic spell is not overpowered as it just allows a unit to react as if it was a normal unit. However this could be really effective if you need to get that one unit into position. Obviously the next level is more potent and, again could be that spell to pull you out of a pickle, especially if you get that hammer unit zooming across the board in the nick of time.
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
689
#45
DoN:

Been busy here as well, although I've peeked in to see if there were any new posts once in a while.

Fist impressions Don:

Supreme Lord of Undeath:

Fluff: Nice (pretty much as always).

Lesser Version: Not a big fan of the access to and Loremaster for all those lores, particularly the DE Dark Magic one. Unique Lores for one army should always be unique for that particular army in my view. How about: Augment spell. Wizard gains Loremaster for Lore of Necromancy, and adds +1 free PD for each Lore of Necromancy spell cast? Remain in play as well (without all the lore options that is)?

Greater version:
-Not sure limiting it to lvl 4 wizards is "fair".. After all, if one already has knowledge of the spell, it is more a matter of the power needed than anything..
-As stated above, not a fan of the multiple lores idea.. Nagash was first and foremost a necromancer and I feel this is what we should focus on and get across theme-wise.
-Like the +1 to cast, dispel and channel. :)
-Like the ignore the failed attempts idea as well. It just needs a small re-write at the end. As far as I know, there are no real consequences for failing a dispel..
-Terror and -1 Ld is a suitable effect.

Overall: Pretty decent spell DoN, although I disagree on the many loremaster options. I have to say it, even though I feel pretty sure the others who have a more "epic" idea of Nagash in their minds will disagree, but with our potential increase in Pd overall (which I think is very suitable for this army), the option of lots of free lores to spend said PD on is a devastating combination. Also, from a Lore standpoint, the Druchii didn't really teach Nagash Dark Magic as they knew it, as that was very hard to use in a magic poor area like nehekhara, requiring a whole lot of raw chaos magic to be about to be effective.
Much better and simpler than the previous option. Something like this I could very well present to almost any opponent with no problems if the multiple lores/loremaster was lost.

Catechism of Unholy Vigour – 7+

Fluff ok.
-This spell should perhaps stipulate eligible targets. All Undead of Nagash units perhaps. I can't imagine a necromancy spell working on the living aspects of the army.

Lower version:
-I quite like the spirit of this version DoN. With its range, this allows us to march monsters and the like out on the flanks, and still keep them mobile (although at a cost for them to be at maximum efficiency). One problem I do have with it though, is that since magic comes after movement, our opponent has two chances to dispel it before it comes into effect, and that might be a problem... I think the Remain in Play will have to be removed, and changed to "last until the beginning of the next friendly magic phase". This way, it can't be dispelled in the opponent's turn. To balance it out though, maybe the target unit could get Swiftstride as a special rule (to both flee and pursue more efficiently).

Greater Version:
-I think allowing a charge might be pushing it.. It seems GW has removed this for a purpose as Chaos Born says. It also favors more elite regiments to act as hammers, which I think might be a wrong direction as far as the "chess move" kind of tactics we wish for the army... This very easily becomes a tactic which to favor above all else.
How about letting the target unit get to move much in the same manner as if Fast Cav (even infantry), with the lesser rules and increasing Movement stat to 8? Remain in play? Just a thought. Triple normal movement means 30" for Flyers and the like, which I think is a bit too much of a boost.
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
689
#46
Chaos Born:

btw, two examples of situations where you had to keep track of situations from previous turns just struck me here; the Black Coach and magic, and Skragg the Slaughterer and total kills..
This proves that this is far from unprecedented, and keeping a score of killed units is not hard in comparison at all, since you don't have to attribute them to any unit as kills in the first place, so it is right there on the army sheet for both to see at all times..
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
689
#47
Hmm.. People seems to have gone quiet again.

Been pondering our augment spell options and I think I've managed to come up with a solution which don't bring along extra options on the higher casting value, but which still gives us pretty decent tactical options.

Amplification of Immortal Alacrity
Cast on 10+

The Necromancer imbues his undead minions with the power of Shyish, granting them unnatural speed and skill, too better serve their undying lord. (Needs DoN's fluff touch)

Amplification of Immortal Alacrity is an augment spell with a range of 18” that may target any unit with the Undead of Nagash special rule. For as long as the unit is affected, it receives a +D3 bonus to its Weapon Skill and Initiative characteristics (roll once), and it gains the Extra Attack special rule.
The spell lasts until the beginning of the Caster’s next magic phase.

The Wizard may choose to increase the potency of the Amplification of Immortal Alacrity; affecting all units with the Undead of Nagash special rule within 12". If he does so, the casting value is increased to 20+.


Catechism of Unholy Vigour
Cast on 7+
As the foolish defied the might of the Dark Lord, thus he did drive forth his faithful to strike them down in His Name
From the seventh book of the Cult of Nagash, Chapter 16, verse 9


This spell is an augment spell which may target one unit with ythe Undead of Nagash special rule within 18".
If the unit is in close combat, it gains the Always Strikes First and Swiftstride special rules.
If the unit is not in close combat, it may either make an immediate March move of up to a maximum of 8" (following all the normal rules, ignoring any LD test for enemies nearby) or it may make an immediate Quick Reform, with no LD test required. This spell last until the beginning of the Caster's next magic phase.
The wizard may increase the potency of the Catechism of Unholy Vigour, affecting all Undead of Nagash units within 12". If he does so, the casting value is increased to 14+


By doing this, I think we get decent synergy effects, and it also allows us to incorporate flexibility without catering too much to the hammer approach play-style.
IF we decide to go with what we had for core options before, we already had units specifically to lure the enemy into failed charges, so I don't think this is something the army need a spell for specifically.
 

Disciple of Nagash

The Perverted One
Staff member
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Messages
27,917
#50
Hokay. So from the above:

Supreme Lord of Undeath
Yeah I thought the Lores might be a sticking point xD I just thought it might be fun. However the alternative of +1PD per Necromancy spell cast sounds very fun xD Looking it through however, the bumped higher level version seems, well not worth it as much as we currently have:

Lesser version:
Loremaster: Necromancy and +1PD to every Necromancy spell cast

Higher verson:
Same as lesser plus +1 to casting, dispelling and channelling.
May continue casting if failed.
Terror and -1 ld

Don't get me wrong - it is good, but is it 25+ casting value good? It seems to need a little oomph, something to do with Necromancy that Nagash would use. How about: The caster may re-roll any dice used to determine the number of wounds healed by The Immortal Legion. Makes senses that Nagash would reliably be more effective doing this?


New Amplification of Immortal Alacrity
Yep I like xD The lower version with the +1A is better, balanced out with the varying WS / I benefits.


Catechism of Unholy Vigour
I like the option for CC - makes sense and effective if combined with Immortal Alacrity.
I don't like the revised non-CC version, isn't that just pretty much Vanhels? That's why I suggested that the unit can march normally ( we could even chuck in reforming without a Ld test if you want to get rid of the charge reactions) in the next movement phase. You can then plan appropriately in the next phase.

The higher level effect is ok, though I did like the option to triple the movement on a unit (even if it does not affect charging). To ensure it is not OP we can simply state this spell does not affect flying units (which the Legion has few of anyway).
 
Top