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Uziel

Vargheist
Aug 29, 2011
687
DoN:

-"Most" of the VC characters can NOT take over without any harm if the general dies. You have to have multiple characters, "alive" on the board, with Lore of Vampires, to have any chance of having someone take over as general etc.. If all locusts (whom I so far imagine will be more common than VC Lore of Vampire characters) can take over as general, we are certainly not worse off than the Vampire Counts army, and we are far better than the TK army.

-As far as the wight blades go, I agree that it is not such a big deal in general, and the issue for me if it really warrants 1 point increase or not. If not, we get a better deal for no price, and if it does, we might easily be paying too much. There has been no discussion on this yet, so its just something to keep in mind.

-As far as the panicking living element, this most likely won't be a big deal, as we also have to consider a that the BSB more often than not will be close to the general, and if this is the case you have a re-roll on said panic tests. Those outside the BSB range are most likely "Safe" in any case. Yes, one can reduce LD to compensate for this, but unless you set it quite low, it will very rarely make an impact on the game.

-As to the marching, I didn't state that this was the case, but that it had been suggested. The point was, that together with the general, the rituals, the zenophytes special rule, etc, there wouldn't really be much of a march limitation to the army in the hands of a half-decent general. My point was that we should be careful that we don't make too many options of overcoming the army limitations. As it stands now, we will be far better at marching than the VC list, and certainly the TK one. Both those armies are severely limited, especially in larger battles.

-yes, the agreed rule was ItP, but a) stubborn has been suggested afterwards and b) you suggested Unbreakable for the Nagashi cultists on a unit basis, really only leaving the Favoured ones and the Dark Riders (who are more than likely outside the IP range of the general most of the time anyway) being affected by Immune to Panic. This is what I was referring to. My point was that the rule became a little pointless if it was only really going to be meaningfull on the Favoured ones (with Dark riders too far away, and cultists all being unbreakable within the IP range)...

-I know nothing has been settled on on the black armour, and that is why I'm urging caution at this stage. With the -1 to strength being suggested back at the troop level, I think it is fair to speak up before this makes the cut so to speak.

-I wasn't discussing the stats of the "hierophant" directly, but rather how vulnerable the TK list can be with the Hierophant option for keeping the army on its feet. I think this is an option that CAN make the TK list far more vulnerable than the VC one vs many armies in the game.

I know a lot has not been decided on yet DoN, but I think it is far better to make a list that is at v.1.0 comes out slightly weaker than your "average" list in the game, because it will then be MUCH easier to get people to play against you and to game test the army than if you go for an epic one which will make people shun away from playing the list. It is easier to adjust things upwards afterward, than having to reduce things. Yes, I like to err on the side of caution because of this, but I don't see this as a fault when doing something like this.

I still disagree with you that I have gone too far the other way though; but if that is the general consensus here, I realize that I might as well spend my time better constructively on other matters and someday put my suggested ideas and units to use on my own project. If I can't find common ground with you at the Army rules/Core units stage, I think perhaps that the differences will perhaps only escalate unfortunately (at least if some of the more unbalancing suggestions do gain a foothold this early), and I have no interest spending my time being the one irritating one whom doesn't see eye to eye with the rest of the group.


As to your specific suggestions DoN:

-Your graded armour options seems much more balanced than what I've seen so far, and I'm on board with this. The Troop/Character division is more than adequate I think.

-Not sure I like the Leaderhip of Champions to reduce crumble, as champions generally have the same LD as the troops they lead. Small issue though, and it wouldn't really be necessary If there was no such difference to be found anywhere in the list to begin with (which is the norm so to speak).
Yes, the LD test and potential damage does make up for more Locusts (than comparable VC army Lore of Vampire wizards). Depending on how the characters will look, this seems to place us just slightly below the power level of the VC list as far as this issue goes, which is I think is the "region" where we should be.
It is not what I would have wanted to see, as it is too similar to the VC list in my opinion, and could allow for high LD characters that are not Wizards take over as General (Ld 9-10 with a potential re-roll from the BSB is next to no issue at all), but if this is what the general consensus wants, then it is a pretty fair deal, depending offcoure a little on who the Locusts will be.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Uziel - I certainly don't want you to stop contributing. I know you may feel that you are being disagreed with, however if you look over the history of the LoN, you have actually managed to get more changes agreed that most people xd Having three core units pretty much agreed on is not a bad thing.

But in some cases you won't always get what you want, in the same way I won't. It's what happens when we work as a group.


Now, in regards to the points you raised.

Panicking Nagashi - Compromise. Do not allow this test to use the BSB re-roll. They are panicking because their general just bit the dust and their faith has been severely undermined. It would make sense the normal BSB re-roll would not do much for them.

Cultist being unbreakable - I suggested that for one suicidal unit, not for all Nagashi units. I do plan to look at introducing a special one following our discussions. Again this hasn't been agreed, only a suggestion at the moment.

Black Armour: See, we can agree on something xd

General's Death - You say that it is not what you would like to see as too close to VC. Ok, what would you suggest alternatively? (just a note, again I think the test I suggested should be exempt from BSB re-roll).
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Aug 29, 2011
687
DoN:

I'm perfectly aware that I won't be able to convince the majority always, and that's fine. :)
I do try to explain as best I can however what I'm trying to get across, and why, and if this fails to convince people, I just have to accept that I've had a bad idea, or that the idea doesn't work that well with what the majority has in mind. No one's suggestions are always spot on, and sometimes they are just a total miss all-together. Happens to us all. Enthusiasm can be a fickle mistress... hehe

One of the things which is a bit of an issue currently though, is that we are to few people interested to get a broader opinion base to work with. I'm not a big fan of a "democracy" for the reasons that I've already explained, but more general feedback and thoughts from players with some experience is always good. There are armies that I have little experience with playing against for example, and as such there will be things that I miss that others might pick up on and so on (although I think I have played against every army in in one ed or another over the years, except dark elves for some reason).

To the specific points:

-If the BSB re-roll was gone, then yes, I think the panic test would matter more. I think perhaps that the Acolytes LD score could be raised to 8 as well then, to show their fanaticism a bit more. We already have a -1 csualty on all undead from the Ustable rule, and this combined with the -1 from the banner already grants our undead element a lot of reliability, especially the "elite" elements... Letting hte banner have "less" of an effect on the mortal element could perhaps help balance things a bit overall. :)

-The unbreakable issue on the Acolytes have already been covered in the Core thread, and I agree that this could be doable on more "elite" cultists as well, just not on the Core ones.

-Black Armour: hehe. I think we agree on quite a lot in the end DoN. The fact that I can convince you to some changes, despite the earlier voting etc, tells me that we might agree on even more if what was done and decided already didn't have such an impact on the present.
Still, If the "graded" Black Armour idea is what people want, I think your suggestion is overall the most balanced and easy to "sell" to anyone new to the list. I do imagine that more powerful armour, or talismans, will be available in the magic item section as normal however, but if your suggestion was an actual armour, and not an armour upgrade, it would allow our Wizards to have armour, even magical armour (as normal armour in the army list is a condition for being able to select magical armour).

-The BSB factor, combined with a LD of 9 or 10 on high LD warrior characters being locusts (thinking Zenith Lord/Prince primarily here), would realistically make the downside of a LD test nearly a moot issue in all but the rarest of games. Removing the BSB effect here is a good option if this is what people want.
I've already said a lot on this issue earlier already, and your suggestion as it stands with the no-bsb re-roll is not a bad suggestion as far as balance goes DoN. It places us somewhere between the VC and TK list as far as the death of the general/hierophant goes, which is where I think we should be for balance reasons.

What I don't like is the "fluff" part, or the lack of uniqueness for the army if you will. I quite like the idea that someone like krell, who is not a wizard by any means, can keep "their" regiment going on sheer force of will, after the death of the general (like krell did after Nagash was killed by sigmar, and Krell wreaked havoc with his Doomed Legion afterwards).
I'd like to have the Locust special rule separated from the rituals (and add a new special rule for them since you insist on them), and allow the Locusts to have a more important place in the army, doing the following:

-LD test to take over unit after general's death. Stops crumbling after initial casualties (even the first casualties will be affected by their LD though, so are not likely to be many)
-Locusts allows units accompanying them to march.
-Certain spells etc can be re-written to work especially on Locusts, such as the possession one, the locusts being extensions of the general's will etc

I know it's hard to bring across every detail, here, but some of the things I'd personally like to see to compensate for the fact that the death of a general would have an impact approaching the death of a TK Hierophant (minus the living component and units saved by the Locusts), is a more favorable synergy as far as magic items and riding large monsters goes (which also have a great impact as far as the general's IP range impacts the game). Mounting a powerful general on a Large Monster/contraption is something which is not often done if one wishes to play competitively, and I think this is a shame. Having our general more securely mounted on a fearsome moster/"palanqun of power" is an idea which I think fits well with the army, as the hubris of nagash's generals are most likely approaching that of their master *especially if he is not raised yet!).

Compared to the TK army (which I think makes a bit more sense to compare ourselves with compared to the VC one overall, as they are basically all Nagash's raised populace in the first place etc), with the Locusts preserving our elites, having living units which might very well still be in the fight after the general's death, and if we allowed our self to ride large monsters with better protection vs ranged attacks than what is generally found in the game, I think the army would benefit in the following ways:

a) It would NOT be too similar to either of the VC/TK lists in this regard, which I think overall is the most important factor personally. Why make a new undead army if it is going to be too similar to the others after all?
b) we would power-wise be somewhere between the TK and VC list as far as the General issue goes
c) Our general (whom I think should be a wizard) could actually sit on his monster, behind the main battle line, having a good view of things, and effectively supporting with spells)
d) we would be encouraged to diversify our characters (especially heroes) a bit more, as some would be locusts, some wizards, etc..
e) If we're going for more epic, then it has to go both ways to really justify it. The death of the general should not be of little consequence I think.
f) With a Caster type general protected behind the front lines, and harder to kill with ranged attacks, we are far less likely too lose said general than the VC' army list, which goes a long way from making the death of the general less of an issue.
g) with more elite troops, we have far less of a need for the general to ever see front rank fighting in the first place as well

All in all, we would be far better off than the TK army, but perhaps not as well off as the VC one.
I think the ease of which the vampires control the winds of dhar, as well as their opportunistic nature justifies that one taking over as easily upon the death of the general makes sense for their list, but not so much for an army which has traditionally been led by "people" who have truly hated sharing any control, and in the case of nagash nearly broken his subjects will through domination.
 

The Dread King

Moderator
Staff member
True Blood
Jan 28, 2012
1,897
I won't be able to contribute much in the next few days as I have giant painting pledges to fulfill. However, I'll just say this now:

-Black armour should be an armour upgrade, however it should count as part of the magic item points allowance. This way people can have powerful armour and black armour but at the same time can't get extra power than they normally couldn't get without the black armour. I agree with Uziel and DoN on the black armour, howver I think that Nagash's personal armour should be far more powerful, as even though he wouldn't construct armour for his servants, he'd be more than happy to save his own hide! I also think that dreadlord armour should be more powerful, as the nine will have access to massive amounts of ore.

So here's my suggestion:

-Troops:Immune to KB

-Characters:Immune to KB, +1 armour save

-Dreadlords: Immune to KB, +1 armour save, +1 ward save

When you think about the dreadlord option, it is not unreasonable as we can always modify each dreadlord to make sure that they are not overpowered. Some unique units (such as Nagash's escort) should have their own personal black armour in my opinion, however that will not be an army wide rule so that doesn't need to be discussed here.
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Aug 29, 2011
687
How about renaming it "Nagashizzar Plate" or something, just to distinguish it from Nagash's own armour a bit more?
I got the impression that DoN's initial name suggestion was more of a working name than a final one in any case, and it just seemed to stick as the discussion continued (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here DoN).

I'd be careful to make the armour too commutative with other armour in the game however. I would personally treat it much the same way that Chaos Armour is treated in the WoC list, i.e being cumulative with a shield, but if one wears another set of armour entirely, then one still can't claim the bonuses from this as well (doesn'treally make much sense unless ALL magical armour options available are "Nagashizzar made", and with all the armour in the BRB this becomes a bit of a stretch). Just having access to a 5+/immune to K.B armour is a huge boon to our lower level wizards, and if we go beyond this, said characters might soon start to get a little expensive as well.

I just had a thought, which could perhaps be worked into the list (either as a separate magic item or at the army special rules stage). How it the General (Lord option at least) was equipped with something like a "Vassal Crown of Nagashizzar", which basically showed that he was one of the Dark Lords of Nagash, and which did something like the following:

-Granted him the personal protection of some kind of "spirit shield", which could help protect both him and any steed from ranged attacks
-Was a link to the subconscious of Nagash himself, and granted him the ability to more safely cast spells with impunity

just a thought, but one which sort of aids in bringing an element of nagash's presence on the battlefield, without going the "greater daemon" direction, and which also makes sense from a nagash fluff direction, in the sense that he really doesn't like to share power, without some sort of security behind it...
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Feb 5, 2009
2,683
Toronto, Ontario
I'm ok with just the 2 versions of the Black Armour. It's simple and serves the same purpose. Individual Dreadlords can have unique armour, so having a "set" value for them is not needed.

I think that the BSB reroll should apply. It applies everywhere else. I'd rather not introduce an exception for the sake of doing so. Just need to find the right balance and cost for these things.
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Aug 29, 2011
687
Bishop:

If Dreadlords is a different term for the nine Dark lords of Nagash, then this makes sense. There are only nine, and of the two of them that we know of, Krell and Arkhan, Krell already has some ancient chaos armour, while Arkhan, Nagash's right hand man, has none. Doesn't seem entirely right that they would all be cut from the same mould and thus be wearing the same kind of armour etc.
Even if Nagash himself will be featured in the list (which I almost take for granted considering the epic angle most people here wish for), an army needs to be able to stand on its own two legs without Nagash as well, so I don't think the Dreadlords/Dark Lords would benefit if we made them too similar overall (whatever game mechanic that would cause this). Not saying that they should not have similarities mind you, just that we need to ensure that they don't come off similar as nine star wars storm troopers.

I see your point as far as the BSB re-roll goes as well, but IF the Zenith Lord/Prince become Locusts, and this is what qualifies them to take over as the army general, then a re-roll on a LD 9-10 almost makes the whole point moot, and add to this, we don't need to pay the points to have an additional Wizard (assuming we even need a wizard initially) in the army, with the "Lore of Nagash", to be able to save the army for crumbling. This is rather a big issue for the VC army, which the Locust idea can quite easily compensate for, and then some, especially since we're more than likely to have more Locusts than a VC army have Lore of Vampire wizards as well. This is part of the reason why I thing another direction is the way to go, but if the majority wishes for a VC "template" solution, then I think we come out far ahead of the Vampire Counts, and that I must admit I do have a problem with, both from a rule perspective as well as a fluff perspective (and eve none of those is enough to sink the boat in my opinion). This is why I think the no re-roll is an acceptable way to go if this is the overall option chosen.
 

The Dread King

Moderator
Staff member
True Blood
Jan 28, 2012
1,897
I think that if we pass a really good locus rule, we won't be able to give it to many people but if we pass a bad one, it will be rather pointless, no matter who we give it to. I think that we should pass a really good locus rule but be ready to not give our Zenith Lords locus-in my opinion, the only wight able to lead an army (if any) should be Krell.
Black armour-this shouldn't be given to most wizards in my opinion anyway, so it woudn't become too powerful if it was allowed to be used in tandem with magic armour. Furthermore, just because GW give Arkhan no armour, doesn't mean that we should give Arkhan no armour-all awesome characters need armour (or protection of some kind).
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Aug 29, 2011
687
Whatever we do go for, I think it is important that we end up somewhere in the middle of the two "undead" lists in this case, one of the reasons being that this leaves us with more leeway when it comes to creating ore powerful/epic individual units.

I agree that most wizards shouldn't have armour in general, but if we end up with characters somewhere in the middle (being both tolerable wizards & Warriors), then this is more appropriate. Easily solved by the same mechanic for armour options as applies to the Chaos Armour i the WoC list.
I still don't like the idea of a character basically wearing the equivalent of two suits of armour.. Magic armour is not something you easily improve on after its creation either. It also sort of goes against the Magic Item category separation idea for magic items in general, which is there for balance reasons more than anything.

Gw obviously decided that he didn't need armour, so claiming that all awesome characters need armour/or equivalent protection is a bit misleading. Toughness 5, 3 wounds, and the ability to possibly heal often goes quite a long way for a character who is predominantly not a warrior in the first place.
I'm not saying that Arkhan would never don a suit of armour in preparation for war, but it is very easy to go overboard in protecting powerful special characters, and thus the point cost can spiral out of control and the character become too expensive to be fielded in a normal game (which I personally think it is very important that they can be used in in a list like this).
 

The Dread King

Moderator
Staff member
True Blood
Jan 28, 2012
1,897
Well, not all characters need armour, but I think that way in which carpe noctem has interpreted Arkhan makes it better for him to have magic armour than not. Point accepted about the black armour being its own option and not an upgrade; it's just that not many characters will use the black armour-it's too expensive to go on the cheap characters and it's too weak to go on the Big Bads. Still think that dreadlords should have the black armour ability in their armour, though, but that can be discussed later (in the special characters section).

GW can make some pretty strange decisions-they decided to hit the orc and goblin magic items list really hard and make it nearly useless, they decided to make skeletons chaff instead of decent core, they decided to make ghouls 10pts each.

Question about the black armour: does it count as magic armour or not?
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Aug 29, 2011
687
I thought you were going to be busy D.K. hehe Good too you can spare some time though. :)

It sort of depends. Generally, Wizards are not allowed to wear armour, unless that normally have access to mundane/chaos armour initially. This is for a reason, but also an issue that are broke if it is deemed justified. In the existing fluff though, I don't think he wore any armour (certainly not any armour of note at least), BUT we also have to consider that a looong time has passed since Nagash's legion were once a credible military threat, and we have to take into consideration that someone like Arkhan will not have been "sleeping" away time in a tomb somewhere, but have been relatively active in his own pursuits, and that things might have changed in that time, for better or for worse. Arkhan does however have a current representation in the TK book, and I rather like this version and find it fitting, considering how he became an immortal in the first place and how he would have changed more to a proper liche over the centuries, especially as he could study the book of nagash freely etc.. I think it natural that he would have "forgotten" some of his fighting skills, as well as having gotten slower (his flammable rule certainly implies that he has "dried out"), but gained a lot of skill as a necromancer instead, and thus would perhaps not consider wearing armour all that important.

I agree that GW can make some strange decisions from time to time, and I agree with most of your specific examples as well. I've always considered it very strange that Chaos Marauders are S3 only to name an example, making them the only S3/T3 unit in the game, mounted on 25mm bases, and their fluff certainly implies that they are far stronger than your average Empire Captain, so why they are rated lower is beyond idiotic in my view. Why make the models appear as big brutes, if they are the equivalent of your average man after all.

Do you mean "Magic Armour" as in the sense of being limited to characters only, like normal magical items (i.e not available as an army wide item), or do you mean "magical" just in general? If your're thinking of the second option, I think the rule divide between magical and mundane armour was removed long ago. If not, I think we're discussing it in the wrong section, as only something able to affect some troops etc would be natural in the army rules, so my guess is that this is the case.
 

Dreadgrass

Necromancer
Dec 20, 2009
846
Hi all,

I didn't realise we were reviewing the LoN already, only just thought to check in!

Firstly, can we have another summary of what is up for debate at this time and whats been decided on/ the current preferred decisions thus far? as I see it the rules in question are:

Undead of Nagash - essentially standard undead with 1 less crumble wound (Similar to TK's Undead construct rule). I'd suggest though they only get the bonus if within 6" of a "locus" character to bring the character synergy in a little more.

The General - Must have the Locus rule, his death causes crumbling. I think we need to decide more on the army and re-visit this topic, but my suggestion would be no take-over mechanic, as that is a VC tool and we're dabbling along the lines of taking the TK's and VC's rules and tweaking them to suit ourselves. Instead, I'd suggest that every locus character within 6" or somesuch adds 1 to a units LD for the purposes of their crumble tests each turn(obviously max LD10). Also, are we just using the standard Undead BSB rules?

Wight Blade - magical and killing blow attacks. I think we're trying to take the best of both worlds here by allowing the killing blow to transfer onto magical items AND having it affect the units magical attacks as base. As a suggestion, what about having the unit have magical attacks and can upgrade to killing blow for x points? That way they're a little different form Tomb/ Grave guard and it means characters have to pay extra for the KB. The other option is to only allow killing blow on a units mundane equipment?(the thought of Sword of Bloodshed and killing blow on a naturally tough character such as the Zenith lord is just crazy)

Nagashi - not sure where this rule is at, but I'd suggest immune to fear caused by undead permanent and gain ItP from the generals "Inspiring Presence" Also, they take a panic test if within the generals Inspiring presence when he dies. Also, how are we working the characters alive/ dead interactions with joining units etc.

Will of the Great Necromancer - Immune to crumble, take a LD test if not in a crumbling unit. what happens if the character fails their LD test? Something along the lines of loosing a wound for each point the test is failed by could be reasonable?

Locus(x) - The character has access to the rituals of Nagash and can cast (x) per turn. Though I think locus spells and abilities should be all about keeping the army going so I think it could also be used to support other abilities (see Undead of Nagash and The General)

I'd suggest Black armour and any more Unit specific abilities be discussed when we reach the relevant units? Though I'm thinking something simple like enemies in B2B suffer -1WS (minimum 1?) for the armour. Easy, not game breaking, and can be effective on characters as well (if Zenith Lord had WS7 for example, WS4 enemies will hit him on 5's)
 

The Dread King

Moderator
Staff member
True Blood
Jan 28, 2012
1,897
The Dread King has returned from the dead and is ready to serve the legion once more.

What I meant by magic armour is that if it is classed as magic armour, it can be broken by certain weapons/abilities etc. or have its rules removed from it by a few nasty models in books such as high elves.

Nice about the KB upgrade-it could be an upgrade of a selection of uprades onto wight blades. This would allow players to choose what to tool their unit/character up with. Not sure about it being too broken, though.

Black armour-fine with the +1 to armour save and Immune to KB for characters and Immune to KB for units, just want clear statement of whether it's magic item or not.

Everything else-I'm happy with what's already been stated by the general populace of this area of the forum.
 

Dreadgrass

Necromancer
Dec 20, 2009
846
The Dread King said:
Nice about the KB upgrade-it could be an upgrade of a selection of uprades onto wight blades. This would allow players to choose what to tool their unit/character up with. Not sure about it being too broken, though.

Potentially could be along the lines of:

Ancient WarBlades: The unit has Magical attacks. One unit of (insert unit name here) or any character with this rule can upgrade to "Ancestral WarBlades" and choose one of the upgrades below:

Corrupted ("x" points): Poisoned attacks
Lifedrain ("x" points): Killing Blow
Gravelight ("x" points): Flaming
Corroding ("x" points): -1 Armour penetration

Note these bonuses only apply when using the weapon in question and may not be combined with magic weapons.

This could be a lump value payment (ala Marks of Chaos) or on a per model basis. There could also be a magic weapon or 2 that "counts as" a WarBlade...
 

The Dread King

Moderator
Staff member
True Blood
Jan 28, 2012
1,897
I think per model basis is a good idea (or per group of five or less models?); but for special characters like Krell, they should be able to have ancient warblades rule, KB and his axe's abilities-he had a wight blade that was really powerful as a wight blade and its own extra "black axe" abilities. So, yeah, I like the list; this can be looked at later, all we have to say is that there is a list and magical attacks (and if we want to give dreadlords certain abilities along with the blades, then we can do so when we reach the special characters section).
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Ok, so we really need to try and wrap these rules up once and for all.

Locus - this seems to be a major rule that we need to decide on, as it works inline with other rules. So having reviewed all the rules so far, here is what I suggest:

Locus
Throughout the Legions Of Nagash, there are those that with the strength of will to force the undead to obey their every command.
Any undead characters with this rule may march move as per the BRB. In addition any unit they are in may march move. If the general should die and be permanently removed from play, a character with this rule may attempt to stop his unit crumbling. When testing for crumbling, if a unit with a character with this rule passes the leadership test, they no longer need to check for Crumbling for as long as the character is with the unit. If the character leaves the unit for any reason, the unit immediately need to take a crumbling test, followed by another at the start of each Legion phase.

Army General & Crumbling
The army general must have the Locus rule and also be a wizard. If there are more than one suitable choice, it must be the character with the highest leadership.

Should the general die and be removed from play, then all units with the Undead of Nagash rule must take a crumbling test at the end of the phase, and then at the start of every following Legion of Nagash turn.

Undead of Nagash
As per VC, with the exception they suffer one less wound in combat than normal.

Nagashi
Alive units that are immune to fear caused by undead. Whilst in the generals inspiring presence they are also ItP. If the general should die whilst a unit is within the generals inspiring presence, the unit must take an immediate panic check following the normal rules.

We are Legion!
Controlled by the ancient collective spirits, such dead are jealously guarded. Any interference or outside influence confuses and infuriates the controlling spirits, rendering the warriors no more than normal mindless automatons
Any units with this rule cannot be raised past it's starting size. In addition if any character joins the unit, the unit looses the ability to use the options as described under Tactical Options in the unit's entry.
(I want this added as a army wide rule,as I can see other units I would like this applied to)

Plate of Nagashizzar
Heavy Armour
Grants immunity to KB. Characters have better quality full plate, and also benefit from +1 to armour save.

Wight Blades
Units with this option benefit from magical attacks. A unit may also choose to upgrade its weapons from one of the following options. Each option may only be chosen once per army, and does not benefit characters.

Corrupted ("x" points): Poisoned attacks
Lifedrain ("x" points): Killing Blow
Gravelight ("x" points): Flaming
Corroding ("x" points): +1 Armour penetration

I think that is a combination of various ideas. Thoughts?
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Aug 29, 2011
687
First off, congratulations on your new job DoN. Hope that it works out for you. :)

As for the rules:

Locus: I think that that version of the Locus rules are the best so far, and I also think that it could be an excellent source of synergy options throughout the army list. More than anything though, it helps distance the army list mechanics a bit from the VC/TK lists, which I think is essential for a good list. :)

Army General and Crumbling: Looks good I think. That the general at least needs to be a wizard is a fluff requirement in my book for this list, arguably more than any other list, and this now looks good.

Undead of Nagash: I quite liked Dreadgrass'es synergy option suggested here, that we only get -1w as long as the unit is within 6" of a Locus character. This mitigates the "we're just superior because of Nagash" angle a bit, and also makes Locust have more of a necromantic nexus effect, even though they need not be wizards.

Nagashi: I don't entirely agree with the range issue here, but it is no major issue, and is an easy fix at a later date if game testing proves that a change is for the better. I agree too keep it as is for now.

We are Legion!: The Legion option sort of ties the army's name a bit more to the actual army, so that is a plus. We could change it to a non-Locust character joining if need be, but that depends on which characters this will apply to etc as far as balance goes. I agree though, it does allow for some more interesting "ancient" tactics to flavor the army overall. Lets keep it and see what we get as the army progresses.

Plate of Nagashizzar: I'd still keep the armour a Heavy armour (5+)for characters/units, and leave a better option (if any) to come from the Magic Item section. Even Heavy armour is a luxury on a wizard, and we have one which negates Killing Blow already. I think a proper 4+ Full Plate option encroaches far to much into the realm of Gromril Armour/Empire Full Plate/Chaos Armour, all of which are well defined and justified for being in their respective lists. We can't have everything, and I thing excellent smiths/rare armour materials/forging techniques/mass-"produced" magic armour should be kept to a minimum. I just don't see the justification for the 4+ from a fluff standpoint, and I think anyone we get to play test against may react to this as well. "You have Chaos Armour on your Wizards that negates Killing Blow as well? Npt a magical Item you say?" I just find it much too hard to justify the 4+, even if it is just for characters. It is not as if undead character's are not tough enough to begin with in some cases.. Wights.. Need I really say more? :-P

Wight Blades: I think the option is cool in its own way, but also a bit unfluffy as far as existing warhammer lore goes, and also perhaps a bit too flexible. The "GG-equivalents" could very well become the go-to unit for all the armies with something like this. Not sure that this is s good idea. I'd rather see an army with a more varied unit build, than giving an option for a "universal" unit like this, or we risk creating a new 7.ed VC book equivalent... Personally I'd like to just see the blades being Killing Blow initially, to bring then in line with the VC/TK equivalents, and then perhaps have a spell which could alter things a bit. We do after all have some of the same options available as magical unit standards etc. I an live with the the weapons being "magical" as I've said before, even though I would prefer them not to be if it was up to me, given the current TK/VC interpretation.

The BSB seems to be forgotten every time DoN. :P
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Feb 5, 2009
2,683
Toronto, Ontario
I like a lot of those changes / rewordings DoN.

However,

a) We Are Legion! - negated if joined by a character that does not have this rule. (I know that were was talk of adding a character or two with this rule).

b) Armour - Yes, I agree that Full Plate is a bit much. I would keep such options for characters only. I can see an ancient Wight Lord having Full Plate. That much armour should be rare outside the races that normally have it.

c) Wight Blades - I really like the idea of allowing various upgrades. I have to agree with Uziel, it makes the units of "GG" too versatile. They will become the unit that everyone takes many off. Granted, that you could just take a unit and give them the Flaming Banner... it'd be the same thing. I'd be willing to try it out under the premise that a SINGLE unit of "GG" can choose one of the upgrades from the list.

d) Yep - needs to be ammended

Undead of Nagash
As per VC, with the exception they suffer one less wound in combat than normal. This ability is cumulative with the BSB bonus.

e) Add in the BSB wording as per VC/TK lists (ie. -1 crumbling from CR).
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Aug 29, 2011
687
Bishop:

We Are Legion!: granting this special rule to characters on top of the Locust rule seems a bit uneccessary, and it also sounds more like something befitting a Champion properly tied to a regiment if the name is anything to go by, rather than an "independent" character. Personally I think that if we keep the "Locust" special rule limited to the "proper undead" etc, and we don't go all overboard with these characters as far as fighting provess goes, then I think we'll be fine having a Locust characters joining the "Legions", without any disruption taking place, as they act as "natural" focus points for necromancy in any case..

Armour: In your second sentence there, should it be "can't", instead of can? Not entirely sure what you are saying as it stands now. In any case, as far as we know, Krell is the only Wight in anything above Heavy Armour as far as the Lore goes, and we have to remember that wights are ancient by definition, and that means poorer armour almost by definition (bronze age and all)...

Undead of Nagash: You didn't like the idea Dreadgrass had for this?

Wight Blades: Keep in mind that we would retain our magic banner option on top of this, so we would have wights equivalent to the VC army, that are possibly immune to KB, have more flexible weapons and possibly also better magic banner(s) and buff magic... As much as I liked the name suggestions and ideas for the flexible solution, the variation of the weapons on such a large scale becomes a bit odd to be honest. That might just be me though. :)
In addition to this, we don't know how many units this will affect etc for sure yet, so it would perhaps be better to deal with this more on an individual unit basis, and keep the Wight Blades army rule simple.
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Feb 5, 2009
2,683
Toronto, Ontario
We are Legion:
Yeah, it would have to be for VERY specific characters. I'm thinking like Kouran, Captain of the Black Guard (ala Dark Elves) type of characters. Where the character is specifically tied to the unit in question.

Full Plate:
No, CAN is what I meant. I can see ancient Wight Lords having full plate. Having been undead warriors for centuries, they probably would have been able to acquire / fashion proper full plate. Maybe restrict this to the LORD level Wights only. Hero Wight can stick to Heavy Armour.

Undead:
Yeah, Dreadgrass' idea is also okay. Either way is fine. Just make sure that the "cumulative reduction in crumbling from the BSB" is added in there somewhere as well.

Wight Blades:
I agree, keep them simple for now. Killing Blow (and Magical, if you want).... If we want to "add" a bonus later to a unit or two, then we can do so at that time.
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Aug 29, 2011
687
We Are Legion!: If those unit-specific, above average, champions is what you are talking about, then yes, I would agree that they could have the We are Legion special rule without them being Locusts. Not many armies have these kinds of characters though, so it offers up some interesting possibilities for the Legions.

Full Plate: I don't agree as far as a Full Plate option in this list at all to be honest, not really so much for balance reasons in this case, more just because we have to stretch probability and the fluff too far, and it won't really feel right to me. This is pretty much because of how I see a proper Full Plate (as the Empire one) working, which wouln't really leave much of an "undead" to identify, as well as the Full Plate being a dwarf-wrought technological advantage of the later ages (hence not even Bretonnia has it etc).
But, if the majority of those that really contribute regularly here think that I'm wrong, or that a Wight Lord somehow having "aquired" a suit of modern Full Plate (somehow Killing Blow negating as well) is a good reason to actually have it represented in the list, and not as a seperate magic item option as normal, I'll shut up about it. I just think an army list should represent what has good reason to be present, not every possible scenario one can come up with to justify something.

Undead of Nagash: I'm a bit concerned about the possible -3 to casualties/wounds being a bit much, not on the weaker units, but the more powerful ones. This is why I personally liked the idea from Dreadgrass. It would at least limit things a little.

BSB: Have other optiuons than just a -1 been concidered here?

Wight Blades: We shouldn't forget what happens if Wight takes magical weapons in this case in the description, if that is intended to be included.
 

The Dread King

Moderator
Staff member
True Blood
Jan 28, 2012
1,897
Full plate:I think that only characters should be able to have the full plate on top of the killing blow. This armour should only be an option for characters, and if we have any doubts about who we should give it to, we can raise them when we get to the characters section. For now, the armour seems OK, so long as it's only an option characters can take-bear in mind that magic armour will get too expensive, even when players want it, if they have to sacrifice points on removing their nagashizzar plate.

Wight blades: keep them with options. Up to two units of "GG/black knights" can have them in an army and up to four units of "GG/black knights" can have them in a grand army. Each unit can take one upgrade. In addition, the super elite units (I'm planning on creating something more powerful than GG to be in the rare section; they will be the true bodyguards of nagash-nagash could do better than slightly powered-up grave guard to defend him) can take up to two upgrades each on two units, and up to four upgrades each on four units in a grand army (these guys will be seriously powerful and expensive). Hero wights will be able to take up to two upgrades each (on two characters in an army and four characters in a grand army) and lord wights will be able to take up to four upgrades each (on two characters in an army and four characters in a grand army). Special characters will have their own rules.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Right then. Reviewing the above comments:


Locus – We all seem agreed on. I am locking this one out, so no more discussion on this please. Sorry if you get a great idea later, but we need to start moving on to other sections.

Army General and Crumbling: Again, now locked.

Nagashi – Overall consensus apart from Uziel is the range. This will be locked and see how playtesting works out.

We Are Legion!: Again locked. Special characters etc can have it specified in their entry if they can join a unit with this rule.


It seems the following we need to come to an agreement on:

Wight Blades: Thinking on it, we are going to have the We Are Legion! rule, which I plan to apply to the Pinnacle Knight and Guard. So they will have some abilities anyway. So I think we just make this rule nice and simple, as the tactics specified will give them extra flexibility. Why don’t we do down a different route here rather than KB, which is too similar to GG and TG. Wight blades are said to be magical, most magical weapons are better forged, lighter, user can strike faster etc. So may something like: Magical attacks and the user gains +2I? We can always have the KB as one of the tactical options of the unit.

Nagashizzar Plate: Firstly, if it is not going to be plate as standard, I don’t like calling it Nagashizzar plate. I would rename to something like Armour of Nagashizzar. As standard, yes heavy armour and immune to KB. I would suggest that certain specific characters may purchase the plate version. Nagash has a wealth of resources, it is not a stretch to think he has captured or has someone trained to forge plate. He does have a live cult after all, not all who are brainless fanatics. Yes I agree it should be rare, but only allowing Lord level characters for example to purchase it (for reasonable points cost), will mean that only 1-2 characters may have it. Even then as plate armour, if might not be chosen at all if the player wants to purchase magical armour.

Undead of Nagash: I think we can all agree on the -1 to crumbling working with other things such as the BSB. In regards to Dreadgrasses idea……yeah I would be happy to give this a go, just within 6” of a Locus, see how that works out.

BSB: Other ideas for the BSB apart from the -1 to crumbling? Perhaps a store of energy as a focal point. Once per battle at the Legion phase, the energy of the BSB may be released. Units within 2D6 may add march move for that movement phase only, Nagashi fleeing within the range gain +2 to their Ld for rallying.
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Aug 29, 2011
687
The Dread King:

Remember, you are still arguing for a better armour than even Chaos Sorcerers get, since it already has immune to KB as well, with very little fluff justification for it to be so in the first place. If your are going to "sell the army consept" to an opponent (who has to think that it looks like a somewhat fair and fun army to play against mind you), especielly if it is just not to your particular friends, then it is a huge advantage to actually have things as solidly anchored in the fluff as possible...
The argument that since the characters will already have such a good/exepensive armour, that selecting a better one from the magic armour section will become very expensivive is a bit flawed in the sense that if all Nagashizzar Plate armour is 5+/immune to B, this has a reduced cost, you don't need two different suits of plate in the army special rules, and the cost issue would become less of an issue (at least not more so than for the likes of a Chaos Sorcerer with chaos Armour, who wishes a better armour for some reason).

As far as the wight blades go, your "limitations" are not really limitations at all for all pratical reasons. How often have you seen a non-grand army with mopre than two units of GG/BK, or a grand army with FOUR of the same unit types in a grand army? I do consider myself somewhat of a veteran of the game after some 20 years or so of gaming, but I can't ever remember seing this on the gaming table...
You want Hero/Lord wights even more powerful/versatile?? The VC army is still blessed with a cheap T5/3W/Heavy Armour character with Killing Blow (most people assumed he would become T4 or 2W), and we have already added Immune to KB on him/them, and probably Locust as well, and yet you wish for a Full Plate and a very versitile/good magic weapon as well (which also won't come out of the magic item allowance I guess), also allowing the Wight even more powerful combinations...
Remember, this army is going to need Locusts to be able to effectivly march etc, so making all the Locusts hugely expensive might not be a very good idea tactically.

I think you alsom mentioned a better Grave Guard type "Bodyguards of Nagash" type unit above, with stats approaching that of Chaos Warriors.
-First off, why would anyone play Chaos Warriors if we have access to Unbreakable/Resurrectable/Immune to Psychology/Magic Weapon Wielding/Better Armoiur Wearing units of the same caliber??? This would be undermining the most potent infantry warriors in the game to an immense degree, and beyond that, it has absolutly no fluff justification to it. In the fluff, Nagash (in the instances that he has bothered with bodyguards at all) has been protected by regular Grave Guard, sometimes enchanced by his powerful magic. Nagash has a Legion of dead protecting him, and even Sigmar struggled to get through the lines to face him, so bodyguards seems more than a little redundant, especially ones he would have to somehow spend a lot of additional resources to create.
-Secondly, the dead have always had reduced WS and Initiative, to represent that they are in fact slower, and act on the orders of their controllers. This is something that shows all the way throughout both the VC and TK lists, with the only exception being Vampires of some kind or another, with a strong independent will and inhuman reflexes and so on. Changing this with the reason being "more power" is to me a very bad idea. What's next, T4 elf armies?
-Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly of all, the VC GG is already one of the best infantry units in the game, and when you increase their figthing potential, you are essentially taking great steps towards realistically making an Unstable unit into an Unbreakable unit in practice, which is a huge difference in game terms, and should make their points skyrocket. Just consider the cost of slayers, then add Full Plate armour, magic weapons, fear, immune to KB, two attacks, etc, etc..

To everyone involved:

I swear, sometimes I feel like I'm the only voice for "moderation" (considering that we are only on the army special rules yet), and that I'm in for a long war of attrition if I want to see this project to what I deem as being a "playable" conclusion.
Enthisuasm is a dangerous double-edged sword, and must be recognized as so, especially with some many wanting a strong focus on different part of the list etc. It ALL can't be great and wonderful and beyond the norm established by the VC/TK books, as something like that will by its very nature be very unbalanced (hence quickly reducing it to a status of an unpopular "fanboy" list).
If we wish for things to be stronger/better than the status quo, then we at least have to strongly anchor it in the fluff/warhammer setting, and be prepared to pay the point cost for it, and we should only do so in the areas where the army's strengths are supposed to beyond "average" in th first place.
I am not saying that the army should not have its powerful elements, and that we should not come up with new intersting things etc, but we should shy away from the more "un-fluffy" solutions, as this is what our potential opponents will immediatly react negativly to.

Individually, there has been a lot of good ideas proposed over the years, but I see a dangerous trend here developing, and that is every idea being easily accepted is an idea that increases the power level of the list, while anything which is being proposed in a more moderate/restrained fashion is being far to easily discounted (or one has to argue at least twice as hard to get people to even concider it). I've tried to get a discussion going on which elemetns of the army is supposed to be our strenghts and weaknesses previously, but the only real response (and it was a bit half-assed DoN) was along the line of "better magic, more elite troops". I think we need to develop a bit of a stronger guidline for WHAT the end product is supposed to be from a tactics stand point at this stage, before continuing with Characters/special/Rare/magic/magic items, or it will all be doomed to spiral out of control with so many involved wishing for different things.

End of Rant. :)
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Aug 29, 2011
687
Disciple of Nagash said:
Right then. Reviewing the above comments:


Locus – We all seem agreed on. I am locking this one out, so no more discussion on this please. Sorry if you get a great idea later, but we need to start moving on to other sections.

Army General and Crumbling: Again, now locked.

Nagashi – Overall consensus apart from Uziel is the range. This will be locked and see how playtesting works out.

We Are Legion!: Again locked. Special characters etc can have it specified in their entry if they can join a unit with this rule.


It seems the following we need to come to an agreement on:

Wight Blades: Thinking on it, we are going to have the We Are Legion! rule, which I plan to apply to the Pinnacle Knight and Guard. So they will have some abilities anyway. So I think we just make this rule nice and simple, as the tactics specified will give them extra flexibility. Why don’t we do down a different route here rather than KB, which is too similar to GG and TG. Wight blades are said to be magical, most magical weapons are better forged, lighter, user can strike faster etc. So may something like: Magical attacks and the user gains +2I? We can always have the KB as one of the tactical options of the unit.

Nagashizzar Plate: Firstly, if it is not going to be plate as standard, I don’t like calling it Nagashizzar plate. I would rename to something like Armour of Nagashizzar. As standard, yes heavy armour and immune to KB. I would suggest that certain specific characters may purchase the plate version. Nagash has a wealth of resources, it is not a stretch to think he has captured or has someone trained to forge plate. He does have a live cult after all, not all who are brainless fanatics. Yes I agree it should be rare, but only allowing Lord level characters for example to purchase it (for reasonable points cost), will mean that only 1-2 characters may have it. Even then as plate armour, if might not be chosen at all if the player wants to purchase magical armour.

Undead of Nagash: I think we can all agree on the -1 to crumbling working with other things such as the BSB. In regards to Dreadgrasses idea……yeah I would be happy to give this a go, just within 6” of a Locus, see how that works out.

BSB: Other ideas for the BSB apart from the -1 to crumbling? Perhaps a store of energy as a focal point. Once per battle at the Legion phase, the energy of the BSB may be released. Units within 2D6 may add march move for that movement phase only, Nagashi fleeing within the range gain +2 to their Ld for rallying.

Wight Blades:

I'm not against going a different direction than the VC/TK books as such, but there is a reason why thay are the way they are, and the only real way around it from a fluff standpoint that I can potentially see, is to have the forges of Nagashizzar having created new weapons for already "magic" weapon wielding troops, which seems a bit odd as far as smart resource spending goes etc. "Wights" have always been strongly tied to the weapons which they wielded in life in the warhammer setting, and since most of these are in fact bronze-age/early iron-age type warriors, it does become a bit strange to change them from the status quo.

As a general rule, I don't like improvements which undermine an army's natural weaknesses, and in this case the +2 I would make them quick as elves (assuming the Pinnacle Guard etc are changed to a standard "GG" initiative in the first place), which is not very undead to me. An undead army is almost defined by its nature to grind opponents to dust, not the individual feat of arms of their troops.
"Lighter" weapons does scream elves to me as well to be honest, not ancient human civilizations...

Nagashizzar Plate:

It does seem that you are operating a bit out of a misconseption DoN. Plate does not by definition equal Full Plate. There are many a Heavy Amour "Plate" version. A Proper Full Plate is in warhammer dwarf-wrougth, and a later techincal marvel, with the main difference being that all the joints and typical weak spots of other armour have been protected by overlapping armour, while still retaining a large degree of mobility.
As far as the resources of Nagash and his cult goes, I think it is stretching it beyond all reasonable probability that he has captured dwarf-master smiths to work willingly in his forges. Not even the Bretonnians have the secret of forging a proper Full Plate, and they would stand to benefit from it more than any just about other. In the Empire, this is something that would have been produced at the forges of the Knightly Orders in all likelyhood.
The idea that a human smith of good standing should for some reason decide to join a cult dedicated to a necromantic god is too far fetched to be the basis of an army book in my view. certainly, a lot more would have moved to Bretonnia to open up shop there. Besides, it even states that the Empire full Plate is made by dwarfs, so this becomes somewhat a moot point.
Also, being able to make better armour than the Chaos Gods/Chaos Dwarfs, Dwarf Smiths etc is far from "in line" with the warhammer setting.
Characters, and special characters will alwys have access to magical armour should they wish in any case, so what having a Immune to KB Full Plate would really do, was let them retain a bigger than normal magic item allowance, since the Immune to KB/Full Plate was already such a good investment, especially on already near-unkillable characters such as Zenith Lord/Wight "Emperors" (since Zenith Prince/Wight King is the Hero type template)..
There is also something to be said for keeping it simple in the army special rules section.

Undead of Nagash:

Just remember to keep the effect limited to the effects of one Locust in the description.

Undead/Nagashizzar BSB:

I don't think we need any more special effect for the living element of the force, since a BSB is already more than powerfull enough there, epsecially in the hands of a tough Wight type character in an "unbreakable" unit.
How about allowing the banner to store 1 PD/DD, helping giving the army a bit of magical focus, which are supposed to one of the strengths of this army after all? Maye this Dice could be spent on a sort of Vanhel's spell, with a decent range, allowing our more typically monstrous elements to become more mobile? I am assuming that we will at least have one movement spell in the list in any case..
 

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