Lore of Undeath....is it all that?

[Archamedius]

So I am starting to get more game play with Lore of undeath now that our league is over 1000 points and we're allowed to take magic. I am also starting to practice for Adepticon, and I have noticed it *feels* like lore of undeath is underwhelming.

The units you can summon just seem overly difficult to summon in for what you get, or are too small to do anything of value. Maybe I am doing it wrong?

For instance: Ryse the Grave caller base gives you 50 points of infantry. That is a unit of skeletons with no upgrades. Clearly that type of unit is only meant to act as chaff/redirector. However, with you having to put that unit wholly within 12" of the caster, it limits the options available to you. For instance, I would normally think you would cast this type of spell on turn one, it's easier to cast and it generates a token, which you need to get something meaningful in. However, if your intention is to use this unit solely as a redirector, then you have a problem. It's top of 1, your opponent is normally ~ 24" away from you. If you place your baby unit of skeletons out there in front, then all you are doing is giving your opponent bonus movement. If you chose not to move on turn 1, the unit will be 12" from the opponent, and while the average unit (move 4) needs an 8 to charge those skeletons, faster things should get it easy, especially anything with swiftstride. Then overrun from the combat puts him 3-5" away from you on average. That's not what a redirector does. conversely, if you moved the result is the same, but with slower moving things also being close to you.

So how are others handling this lore? Is it even worth it? Or is it better to skip it entirely even in an undead legions list and go full vamps/death?

 

[owain_b]

I personally think this lore was designed to be used with Nagash. His bonuses to the lore makes it a great lore, but without them it is not great. I'd take lore of vampires over it every time.

 

[Seneschal]

It's really on good with Nagash or Arkhan. When it's taken otherwise, it will be on a hero caster and the player prays to roll Swarm for a spirit host summoner. Otherwise, they go with the default spell.

 

[Adam_Barrow]

I saw a Bret player summon a Casket of Souls last week. That was pretty awesome.

 

[Archamedius]

Has anyone tried running a level 4 with Lore of Undeath? Has anyone had any success at all with it?

 

[Adam_Barrow]

That Bret player uses a lvl 2 Damsel in one of his Lances. She summons chaff to keep the bus moving, and by midgame he's dropping Caskets/Ushabti (he's a TK fan from waay back)/whatever else his spell generation allows. It works pretty well for him.

 

[Archamedius]

That Bret player uses a lvl 2 Damsel in one of his Lances. She summons chaff to keep the bus moving, and by midgame he's dropping Caskets/Ushabti (he's a TK fan from waay back)/whatever else his spell generation allows. It works pretty well for him.

Hrm, i wonder if the level 2 makes the spells less important to dispel by the opponent, and allows them to get through. Summoning the casket though on a level 2 pretty much requires miscast, and that can't be good.

 

[Alabaster427]

For hero casters, I like to summon rear threats, especially when I get into combat. Or if an enemy is close enough and about to charge, I will summon a unit of zombies with a banner right behind them facing the rear or threatening something they would rather not have in combat.

Remember also that there are spells that don't summon that are really freaking good. like the hand of dust or the TB scream. You ever get into combat with someone that has 1+ armor save then inflict D6 wounds and ignore it...

 

[Demian]

Lore of Undeath is good, even with regular casters! We have a handbook that gives you insight on what you can summon! check it out!

https://www.vampirecounts.net/threads/sunny-najo’s-vampire-counts-handbook-2014.27561/

Also, I've just realized that with Khaine magic you can summon a gazillion zombies / skeletons and once a turn, some Monstruous Infantry. That's how we know Khaine magic is a bit off...

you thought unlimited RiP spells were bad? try summoning magic x20 and see what happens. Even zombies will block most combats, hehe.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

I ran a BK bus with two level 4 VLs, one on Vampires one on Undeath. It was savage.

I found that the bus was very good at savaging one unit over one or two rounds of CC. However this left them vulnerable to countercharges, and they didn't like taking that much aggression all at once (one of my vampires is also only any good on the charge). I found that I was frequently wanting to 6-dice Raise Dead, but blocked by my opponent's scroll. I was running shadow before, but even with the threat of mindrazor smart opponents still scrolled Raise Dead over S10 vargheists.

Lore of Undeath was the perfect fix. In a bus you can get the most out of that 12" range, and really benefit from the additional chaff.

Solo cav character messing up your day? Ryze to get a unit of TK skeletons with champion in his way.

K'daii destroyer? Raise a unit of spirit hosts.

Steam tank? Bring up a unit of hex wraiths.

Gunline? Boost Ryze turn 1 to get a unit of 3 vargheists who can start shredding their gunline next turn. Or just raise them up to screen your bus.

Late game, when chaff isn't really beneficial anymore, you can raise up units to capture objectives, throw 6-dice at raising up a terrorgheist, or raise up additional casters on nehek/light/vampires for the buffs.

 

[Alabaster427]

Lore of Undeath is good, even with regular casters! We have a handbook that gives you insight on what you can summon! check it out!

https://www.vampirecounts.net/threads/sunny-najo’s-vampire-counts-handbook-2014.27561/

Also, I've just realized that with Khaine magic you can summon a gazillion zombies / skeletons and once a turn, some Monstruous Infantry. That's how we know Khaine magic is a bit off...

you thought unlimited RiP spells were bad? try summoning magic x20 and see what happens. Even zombies will block most combats, hehe.

Khaine magic isn't broken... It's ridonculous. Essentially, you can summon four TGs, or as suggested, an insane amount of infantry. One casting from Nagash can raise 100 zombies, now multiply that... The table would be overcrowded on turn one. "Oh, you thought you were you going to charge me? Here's a 60 block of skeles right in your way. You might as well just skip your movement phase for the rest of the game..."

 

[Archamedius]

Lore of Undeath is good, even with regular casters! We have a handbook that gives you insight on what you can summon! check it out!

https://www.vampirecounts.net/threads/sunny-najo’s-vampire-counts-handbook-2014.27561/

Also, I've just realized that with Khaine magic you can summon a gazillion zombies / skeletons and once a turn, some Monstruous Infantry. That's how we know Khaine magic is a bit off...

you thought unlimited RiP spells were bad? try summoning magic x20 and see what happens. Even zombies will block most combats, hehe.

I have reviewed this list extensively, but the problem I have is in execution. I find that a level 4's ability to get off an appropriate # of spells to rack up the number of tokens required to get in units that will actually do some damage is very limited. Smart players learn to dispel the important spells to stop rampant token generation and let through the spells that are irrelevant. My opponents have learned to make sure I never get more than 2 tokens so I cannot 6 dice a terrorgheist or mortis engine, and don't really fear my other summoning options. 10 skeletons rarely does anything to a unit. You need tokens to get 20 zombies, which makes it tough to get even decent chaff.

This is why I think I may be doing it wrong.

 

[Alabaster427]

I have reviewed this list extensively, but the problem I have is in execution. I find that a level 4's ability to get off an appropriate # of spells to rack up the number of tokens required to get in units that will actually do some damage is very limited. Smart players learn to dispel the important spells to stop rampant token generation and let through the spells that are irrelevant. My opponents have learned to make sure I never get more than 2 tokens so I cannot 6 dice a terrorgheist or mortis engine, and don't really fear my other summoning options. 10 skeletons rarely does anything to a unit. You need tokens to get 20 zombies, which makes it tough to get even decent chaff.

This is why I think I may be doing it wrong.

Are you including a casket of souls in your list? That should help with power dice generation and maybe even getting some of your opponents dispel dice out from the bound spell. Cursed book can also be helpful because you can cast The Withering with one die, but you could also end up cast Miasma with three dice... But the two can sync well together (like Curse of Midnight Wind or D&D)

 

[Archamedius]

I tried the casket once, but it didn't seem very helpful. Maybe I need more practice with it, but I felt like I was giving up a terrorgheist for it, but not making back the damage a T-Bat does for the exchange.

 

[Alabaster427]

The bound spell is basically a TBat scream that can affect multiple units. If you are lucky/brave enough to try it with one die, you can usually pull two dispel dice from your opponent's pool.

 

[LordTobiothan]

You can always summon a banshee and pop it into one of your zombie units. Also, 50 points of zombies is great if you just invocation after.

I mean raise dead is a great spell and lore of undeath is basically a bunch of that spell on crack. I plan to use it my next game in a scream list where I summon tarpits and scream into whatever is stuck in them.

 

[Demian]

Ok... for execution...

In my opinion, the worst spell generation roll that you can get is:

Breath of Darkness
Hand of Dust
Soul Stealer
Abysal Swarm

because you have no "nuke" spell to spend Raise the Dead counters, save for Ryze for Morghasts / Crypt Horrors / Vargheists / Cairn Wraiths or Sepulchral Stalkers with Razkhar.


Anyways, the thing is summoning a unit of, say Fell Bats is a combat unit redirected for 1 turn. The rest of your army composition should take care of the heavy lifting (because they are a reliable strategy) and leave the Lore of Undeath for harassing your opponent with new threats and mostly, chaff.

And if you get the super LoU roll of Akar'aran, Kandorak, Razkhar and Morkharn, you have 2 summoning spells that will be able to change the game, be them summoning Hexwraiths, Black Knights, a Casket of Souls*, Hierotitan*, Black Coach, Varghulf!! (people forget about this guy) or a Sphinx, tons of chaff or a Spirit Host via Razkhar, a decent MI unit from Ryze, or another Necromancer, which you can tool up just to cause a Miscast and gain access to the rest of the lore.

My point is, harass from turn 1, summoning chaff that will come handy later (mobile if you can), or Skeleton Archers for an extra oportunity to cause some damage, Skeleton Archer Riders that will do the same plus chaff...

I believe this Lore is like a support Lore for us VC, with an optional Terrorgheist nuke spell (the summoning, not Khizaar...) and you can play with it as you would play LoV lore.

*if you didn't bring these from the start of the game, which can happen / be your strategy, you can summon them later on, and they really make a difference!

I hope this helps, if not... let us know and we'll find a way!

 

[jbizzle113]

Has anyone tried running a level 4 with Lore of Undeath? Has anyone had any success at all with it?

I played in a GT this past weekend with a level 4 and it worked out great for me, in one game i summoned 4 units of 3 varghiest, another necromancer a cairn wraith, banshee and a black coach. Out of the five games i played only one game i didnt summon anything. And i just didnt see the need to that game. But i actually loved how it worked out for me. the game i summoned the black coach the next turn it absorbed 6 power dice which was great also.

 

[najo]

There are some big pros and cons with lore of undeath. There are some optimal uses. Its fairly powerful in the hands of Nagash and the Mortarchs (since two of them boost the lore and all three can mix their lores). Sunny and I are currently working on updates to the Handbook to account for the Lore of Undeath and Undead Legions.

Its to much to just cover right now, the lore and maximizing it ties directly in with the options it opens and the models that can use it. But in general, its powerful for redirecting and shock tactics with what you summon, it lacks good utility or damage spells making it subpar to Vampires and Death in that department and useless on the last turn of the game when you can't really do anything with the spells.

Personally, I think Lore of Vampires is still our army's best lore followed by Death. Lore of Vampires has all the tools to deal with our weak points. Raise Dead does essentially what Lore of Undeath boils down to (redirecting and delaying enemy units) when in the hands of normal wizards (i.e. not Nagash, Arkhan or Mannfred). In the hands of the others, it can summon whole units (Nagash and Arkhan) or summon them further (i.e. Mannfred). Lore of Undeath does provide interesting tactics with summon ethereal units (spirit hosts) or characters (wraiths and banshees) for the weaker spell casters using it though, and that is something Raise Dead can't do. Raise Dead does have Vampire's Lore Attribute, whereas Undeath doesn't heal our characters. That matters.

@Archamedius You are not crazy, the lore is more a support lore than a main one and shouldn't replace Vampires. @Demian is correct though in that there is some cool tricks and tactics once you get familiar with the optimum uses for each spell, which is what his summoning guide is perfect for.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

[...]My opponents have learned to make sure I never get more than 2 tokens so I cannot 6 dice a terrorgheist or mortis engine, and don't really fear my other summoning options. 10 skeletons rarely does anything to a unit. You need tokens to get 20 zombies, which makes it tough to get even decent chaff.

This is why I think I may be doing it wrong.

False: 10 skeletons wins games. If this is your opinion then I can see why you're not enchanted by Undeath.


First of all, that should be 10 TK skeletons plus a champion/standard. Why? Because requiring standards to capture tournament objectives is in vogue these days, and a champion can tank a challenge from a solo character and hold them up for another turn.

Placed within 12" of a BK bus or flying character, 10 skeletons can knock enemy unit out of the game for 1-2 turns. That wins games...period. With a champion you can knock non-flying solo characters out of the game for MULTIPLE turns. You can do a sideways congaline to hold things up even longer. You can redirect frenzied units to the middle of nowhere, requiring an additional turn of movement just to get to where they started.

And that's just the signature spell. Spirit hosts can tie up a cornucopia of threats indefinitely. K'daii destroyers. Steam tanks. Iron Demons. Chariots. Basically anything without magic attacks or static combat res. A spirit host purchased with your list is great, but at M6 they can sometimes struggle to get to the right place. A raised spirit host never does.

Without spending a single token you can also raise 5 hex wraiths, 3 vargheists, a cairn wraith, a level 1 necromancer, dogs, fellbats, tomb scorpions, varghulfs...you name it. It's savage.



I think the trick is that Undeath should not be your primary lore unless it's on Arkhan or Nagash. It should be the lore you have on one of your two level 4s. There's lots of synergy with Lore of Vampires, and I think you need to be combining it with something with some buff/damage output so that you have threat spells helping your chaff-raising get pushed through.



EDIT: The driving philosophy behind casting Undeath is roughly the same as for snipes on a flying caster. Namely pick one target and spam. If you leave yourself open to one charge then you should be expecting one of Ryze, Swarm, or Raise Dead to go through, and be willing to dedicate your entire phase to it if necessary. If the threat of bubbled Vanhels or something draws out their dice/scroll then even better.


And as for the casket, I don't think it's a must-buy in a UL list but it's certainly fucking savage still. The bound spell is amazing at clearing chaff / warmachines / isolated monsters or heavy cav, and is a great place to dump those extra dice you don't want to risk on your expensive VLs. Once an opponent has eaten a nasty bouncing Light of Death they'll throw an irrational number of dice at stopping the spell going forward. From thereon out you can throw 2 power dice (i.e. the ones it generates) at the spell, and watch them throw two dispel dice at it in response. Basically becomes a CD Chalice that affects only your opponents' dice.

 

[Archamedius]

OK so first:

I have been practicing with it for Adepticon's Team Tournament. You are only allowed a single lord choice in your contingent, thus only 1 level 4. It's performance has been sub par, but I have been leaning towards looking at swapping to vampires on my level 4 and having my partner (who is running VC) run lore of undeath on his level 2.

Second:

My other experiences with it come from games at 1000 and 1250 points. So really only enough points for a single level 4. Which again explains my lack of serious success, although it has fared better in my 1250 point games.

So it seems the sentiment is, it can be a powerful lore, but most thing it works well with lore of vamps and should be combo'd with a level 4 on vampires.

I am going to see about trying that as I get more models built and painted.

Thanks for the input.

Also note: My regular opponents are warriors of chaos and demons of chaos, so 10 skeletons even with a champ don't even tie up for more than one turn, even with challenges. I am aware however that a lone demon prince or greater demon can get tied up for a turn or two, but the only ones i see on the table fly, and well, you cant chaff that.

 

[najo]

If I had a single level 4 and had to choose between Vampire and Undeath, hands down its Lore of Vampires all the way. You lose way to much not using it. The lore attribute, Van Hel's Invocation, Raise Dead and then either Curse of Years or Gaze of Nagash (last two depends on what you fighting). Without that stuff, you are seriously lacking a lot of power. I would even start to say that your secondary caster (the level 2) is worth keeping Vampire for back up, but Death magic is worth considering too. Try to get Purple Syn, Soul Blight and Doom & Darkness and then dump the weakest based on match up for Spirit Leech. Undeath has a role if you have a third caster, can dump spells for undeath spells (like Nagash and Mortarchs can or the tactics of a second vampire lore or a death caster doesn't sound appealing.

Main reason for this, Vampire magic keeps you supported and death magic gives you the ability to kill even up through the last turn. Lore of Undeath doesn't. Last turn, Lore of Undeath is almost useless.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

So it seems the sentiment is, it can be a powerful lore, but most thing it works well with lore of vamps and should be combo'd with a level 4 on vampires.

I'm going to go with @najo on this one, and just generalize this statement to all lores that aren't Vampires. I've run twin level 4s on death and shadow and, as powerful as it is, I'd rather have Vampires. There's just too much synergy between that lore and the army in general to go home without it. Everything else is an afterthought.

So the REAL question should be: on your second mage, what do you need? Ranged potential and LD debuffs (Death) with a potential for PSun? A debuff toolkit (shadow) with a chance for mindrazor and pit? Or more chaff and a chance for raising some big gribblies?


EDIT: just to clarify, the REASON that I think you need vampires is that the army is too fragile without it. We're structured on the premise that you can be putting wounds back on stuff, and the army is a glass cannon at best without it. Especially when you're running with vampire lords, who are WAY too fragile for their points if they can't be healed up when they lose a wound or two.

 

[najo]

I agree with everything PRNoD just said with one caveat, the more experience you get with your vampires, the less you will need healing and the less fragile we will seem. I rarely need to use Invocation to be honest, but when something goes side way, I am always glad I have a couple of them to pull me out of a jam. A couple games ago, I went with no IoN on my lesser caster and because of it my morghasts couldn't get healed. They were locked in to far away from my main caster, who himself was locked in another combat about 20" away. I had thought the morghasts could handle some daemonettes on steeds fine, turned out it was closer than I would have liked. Morghasts were losing a couple wounds a turn even after the aura. The secondary caster had gaze of nagash and hellish vigor. I had no legal targets for GoN and HV botched when I tried to cast it on 3 dice and then the next turn my main caster miscast and tanked the phase. (this was a bad game btw).

But the point being, if I had two IoNs, I would have easily gotten off that heal. Thrown 3 wounds + 1 from the attribute back on the morghasts and my flank would have been fine. Instead, the morghasts crumbled, flank collasped and daemettes on steeds got to where they shouldn't have. Secondary caster fell and forced my primary into some bad positions. I went to five dice a spell I needed to get through and I miscast, dimensional cascade and poof.

In the other 9 games around that one, I never used my second IoN. I barely used the primary one. I had a game I tabled lizardmen the very next week where I used IoN ONCE!. I lost only one dire wolves unit. So, in the game I needed it, I puprose didn't take it because of it seemed like I hadn't been needing it and I wanted more variety of vampire spells. But that is when not having two got me. Your second IoN is like a spare tire in the trunk.

Lesson, bring two Invocations of Nagash to keep your Morghasts big and strong! Nagash approved!

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

It's not IoN that I think makes LoV so strong, but the lore attribute. Being able to bubble out a few wounds on a bunch of stuff is cool, but what's really awesome is putting those single wounds back onto stuff. Stuff like erasing that wound they slipped through onto your T5 lord with his 4++. Stuff like putting a couple wounds back onto your TG with 2-diced spells. It makes every spell into a little bit of a threat that your opponent has to deal with, and they have to resist the urge to overextend.

I think a lot of VC players crutch on spamming IoN. If you build your army right you can make every other spell more threatening, and IoN becomes 2-dice worth of "fuck, you're just trying to get back a couple of wounds on your BK aren't you? Oh and two on your terrorgheist. Ugh. But if I dispel it then you'll throw everything else at Raise Dead and chaff up my countercharge, which I need to have a chance in this game. Ugh. Fine you can have it."