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Official Rumour Thread: New Vampire Counts Book

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I am sure that old and new units will get a fix as internal balance is concerned...some will be toned down while others will be toned up.The last books actually give that feel.
My greatest concern is the vampire lore. I dont know if a Tomb King kind of lore would fit us (Death,Light,Necro mix)...Much of the effectiveness of our army will depend on that me thinks
 

Zhatan

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Uziel said:
Pladvoncarstein said:
Enough about the good stuff thats coming what do you all think will be nerfed?
The first that comes to mind is the Ghouls and the Black Coach.

The Ghouls are in a risky spot, because if Skellies and zombies don't become a lot better, players will still field the Ghouls as today, and we will see little change in the armies being fielded by competitive players. I hope they become "alive!" again, but not Skirmishers.

The Black Coach because it's special ability to absorb magic has become A LOT more dangerous now in 8.ed then what it was originally in 7.ed.

As a side note, I hope they change the Blood Knights a bit as well, by removing the Frenzy and instead just adding +1 attack instead, or addint the Devastating Charge special rule. Makes lances a bit more fitting on them as well.
I hope they redo ghouls instead of nerfing them. I think that zombies and skeletons should be our core blocks of troops and ghouls should be a skirmish / scout type of unit that we field in small numbers. It's more fitting imo.

I sure hope they don't nref the coach to the ground as I find it to be quite balanced as it is. Sure it can become quite powerful but from the start it's underpowered for that points value so it evens out. And it's always a risk with it eating PD for us too as we are so dependant on magic.
 
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I Don't think Ghouls wil be Nerft
They are like our Plaguemonks and plagumonks are cheaper. maby the wil make ghous special.

Making skeletons more atractif is nog going to come from nerving ghouls ore reduce point cost on skeletons if skeletons wil be 3 points and ghouls 10 I still would prefer ghouls over skeletons

Erick
 

Uziel

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Eric Northman said:
I Don't think Ghouls wil be Nerft
They are like our Plaguemonks and plagumonks are cheaper. maby the wil make ghous special.

Making skeletons more atractif is nog going to come from nerving ghouls ore reduce point cost on skeletons if skeletons wil be 3 points and ghouls 10 I still would prefer ghouls over skeletons

Erick
The Plaguemonk comparison is not quite accurate, as the Ghouls are Unbreakable and can be summoned as well, even beyond starting size if one wishes. This matters, a lot...

I hope they nerf the Ghouls, cause if they dont't, we will still see a repeat of the Chould/Grave Guard mono build of today. You just said it yourself, being willing to pay 10 points a model for ghouls, cause skellies suck so bad. 10 vs. 3 points a model is a huge gap, and the only way I see this fixed is by making skellies better, and at the same time nerfing the gouls a bit (and reducing their point cost as well), or at least making them tactically different from the ghouls of today.

By making Skellies and Zombies more relevant again, GW would sell a lot of new models as well, as I imagine there is an awful lot of people owning 60+ Ghouls today...
 
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I doubt they'll nerf ghouls all that much, if at all. Remember we're talking about how amazing they are in comparison to two of the worst infantry choices in the game and that is not high praise. Also calling the unbreakable is a HUGE misnomer. Technically they don't break, they just die in droves. Add to this there is virtually no way of mitigating Unstable other than winning, and ghouls aren't really anything remarkable in the grand scheme of things. Hell, if they remove the Helm of Command or reduce the ability to resurrect models, then ghouls will be underpowered though still not as badly as the rest of our infantry.

No, if you want to look at it from the aspect of GW wanting people to buy more models then reduce Skeletons to 4 points each and maybe even make them default WS 3. Zombies would have to get something, but I have no idea what. That way all three core choices have a purpose, and if any nerf of ghouls would be involved maybe make them harder to summon/revive than the other two.


Pyre
 

Uziel

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Pyre said:
No, if you want to look at it from the aspect of GW wanting people to buy more models then reduce Skeletons to 4 points each and maybe even make them default WS 3. Zombies would have to get something, but I have no idea what. That way all three core choices have a purpose, and if any nerf of ghouls would be involved maybe make them harder to summon/revive than the other two.
I didn't state it above, but if the skeletons remain the same, I assume they will be reduced to 4 pts/model. but if people still choose gouls, even at 10+ pts/ a model for their core battle-line units, then GW has done a bad job with the new book in my opinion.

I hope they see this, and actually do something about it, instead of just adding a new "must have" unit (with new and fleshy models to sell etc) in the Special/Rare section. A bit tired of the easy solution you might say... I'd like an army where Vampires, Skellies and Zombies work much better than today. I don't even need a new unit in the army at all, just hoping that those we have are fixed. Not optimistic that this will happen though, as GW is a model making company after all, and money talks...
 

Von Calyptra

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I liked it back when ghouls were skirmishers. I just hope they don't become skirmishers again, so I don't have to pry my models off their regiment bases.
 

Grish

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If skeletons are at 4pts that would be OK I think. Yes, they can't win by themselves, but if the difference is 4pts vs 10pts, and your unit sizes are around 30, then 300pts vs 120pts is huge. You can do a lot with all that extra pts (characters, special units).

Their role might be to pin units until the cav gets there.
 

Adam_Barrow

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I doubt we'll see skeletons at the same points cost as the Tomb King skellies because there's a big difference in the two: TK skeletons can never ever march move. Expect more expensive skeletons than our undead friends in the desert.
 
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Random question for the day:

Does anybody know who is in charge of writing our new fancy book?


pleasenotmattwardpleasenotmattwardpleasenotmattwardpleasenotmattwardpleasenotmattward
 
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A guy at my local GW tolt me the next big release for fantasy is pland for December this year. He sait it would probaly be bretonian but that are just his speculations.

Eric
 

Malisteen

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"Can't win by themselves" is a far cry from "So bad that they'll lose regardless of support, and get any support you do try to give them killed by instability wounds in the process". The former can be balanced by a low points cost, but the latter cannot, and imo the latter is a better assessment of skeletons as they currently stand.
 

Mr Saturday

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"So bad that they'll lose regardless of support, and get any support you do try to give them killed by instability wounds in the process"
I'm afraid I must agree here. With steadfast and stubborn now rampant, combined with supporting attacks, undead core units (with the exception of ghouls, mostly) simply can't perform as intended. They are designed for single rank combat with the old 7th ed fear. Sending 2 units of skeletons into a ranked enemy unit will simply result in two large piles of bones shortly after, generally. Instability MURDERS undead units with each unit losing models and a large casualty deficit can wipe a 30+ man unit in one turn. This is the biggest issue in my opinion, the rules for our core need a major overhaul. Even a points reduction just makes them slightly cheaper piles of bones.
 

Malisteen

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I mean, even terrible, if you make them cheap enough they can be functional bunkers (never meant to see combat) or speed bumps (meant to lose combat anyway). Skeletons only need to be better if they're supposed to be a mainline infantry unit. That's kind of what I want them to be, since we already have zombies for speed bump duty, though.
 

Mr Saturday

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That's kind of what I want them to be, since we already have zombies for speed bump duty, though.
Exactly. Undead units need characters, granted, and the new (or old depending on how long you've been playing) wraith character helps, but even a tooled-up combat lord will have trouble keeping his skeletons up and going. Not all undead core (bar ghouls, again) should to be speedbumps...
 

Malisteen

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I am worried that we'll see skeletons left as speed bumps, with just a points reduction, as per their tomb kings counterparts, while ghouls get the nerf hammer because they're "overused, and therefore must be overpowered", leaving us with basically no functional mainline core infantry units to form a battle line with at all.

Not that I'm so worried I'm not looking forward to the new book, though. I'm bored of the current one, and am looking forward to a change of pace, even if it's one that makes my army "weaker". As long as it has some fun new toys, some neat rules, and, for Nagash's sake, some legitimate build variety, I'll be happy.
 

Grish

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They can fix it with Synergy.

Zombies can't be joined by characters, and are truly horrible. They will lose badly even to skeletons. Their role this edition has been to hold up stuff we just can't fight (Steamtank, HPA, etc). Skeletons can do OK against really crummy troops (skaven slaves, goblins). A cheaper cost, and some better synergy with characters (characters that don't evaporate so easily) or items/powers boosting their combat, they'll serve as they've always served (to my memory); a unit that does not win on it's own, that needs support of our nasty characters.

All that skeletons need to do is be able to survive until help arrives (in the form of magic, characters, items, etc). In the current format, they get hacked to peices due to the format of other units, but I'm hopeful things will turn out OK.

I have some faith in the game developers. Yes, they make mistakes, but IMO, they get far more things right than they get wrong.
 

Mr Saturday

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Yes, they make mistakes, but IMO, they get far more things right than they get wrong.
It's truly nice to see a considered, positive comment amongst all the hate on a forum, but then, this IS CN.

I'm also quite optimistic, look at the last three army books and it seems that game balance and mid-tier is the new mantra. (I can't wait until they get to daemons.) This bodes well for VC. I look at the TK skellies and wonder if line units of skeletons of 60 might do the job 30 can't. I doubt it. More bodies will help, but I think we need something more. Comparing TK and VC skellies like for like is a little vague anyway, as they fit into a totally different army list. We don't have 20 foot statues or lines of magically guided bowmen, but we do have ethereal units and vampires. I think if our skeletons got a points reduction in conjunction with something that mitigates against steadfast or instability, I'd be happy. Then again, the whole list might get a shake up, so it's very hard to see the army as a whole. But then, this is rumourhammer at it's finest...
 
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Saw this on Warseer today, Sorry if already posted but I didn't see it in the summary:

"Originally Posted by theDarkGeneral View Post
and Vamps get a Bloodline or Item or something that allows them to continue casting, even if failing to cast a spell (thus some return to Invo Spam) with big tweaks on their Lore(s) *HINT*"

See the hint...lores...as in plural... :happy:
 
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Uziel: If anyone was actually willing to pay 10 pts a model for the current incarnation of ghouls, and with the current support we can provide, then I'd have to shake my head and walk away. There is no way ghouls are worth 10 pts a pop. Left at 8 pts with skeletons at 4 pts, they'd be close to balanced... of course ALL of this depends on what else is in the book.

As for balance, there's so many variables we can't really try and second guess what's coming. If we are indeed getting an additional cavalry unit, some monstrous infantry, and some kind of new coach then having nothing but "hold out" infantry I guess we could win with that. Past that... who knows? Are we keeping the Helm of Command? The Drakenhoff Banner? Without some kind of information regarding all that, we're pretty much just randomly guessing. Then again, that's what the internet is for.


Pyre
 

Uziel

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Pyre said:
Uziel: If anyone was actually willing to pay 10 pts a model for the current incarnation of ghouls, and with the current support we can provide, then I'd have to shake my head and walk away.
Pyre
I was not the one willing to pay 10 pts/model for Ghouls, that was Eric Northman's statement. I just used it as a reference.
I personally would not pay 10 points for Ghouls, if skellies were available for 4 pts/model (3 pts was the reference he used I think).

It just goes to show that some players think the difference is so big between the two units in their current edition, that a little bit more than just a reducton in the current Skellies point cost needs to be done to make our Core section work "properly" again.
 
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I think that its safe to say that all that will happen to our core is just a cost reduct on the skellies, possibly a stat adjust and cost reduc on zombies with maybe a themed gimic to keep em a decent tarpit. Ghouls will probably not be touched much if at all. The big change I think well see is probably gonna be the spirit host. I'd not be surprised if they got a ghostly howl.
 

Zhatan

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I'm with Mr Saturday.. what we really need is a complete revamp;)
Just lowering costs and making small changes on the units would not be enough imo.
 

Uziel

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Mudd the Mighty said:
The big change I think well see is probably gonna be the spirit host. I'd not be surprised if they got a ghostly howl.
I really hope GW is not going to be that unimaginative. We already have the Banshee and the Terrorghest with this already. There is a lot you can do with a Spirit Host that fits the fluff better witout resorting to a new howling unit. I do agree that the Spirit Host needs to be redone though.
 

chris_havoc

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I wonder what they'll do with summoning. I do get the feeling that raising will be affected in some way quite strongly whether it means less affect on characters or less spamming. Though it would be cool with the return to bloodlines to give Blood Dragons a rule that means they have to challenge but gain wounds back for the amount of overkill they do or something along those lines. It would at least make a combat vamp more viable. If they do return to bloodlines I wonder if there'll be set advantages or disadvantages or if by choosing a bloodline you get access to certain powers or a mixture of both. Either way I'm holding off on buying anything GW related (and pretty much everything else) until I see the new book. Or if I can't wait until then until I see some rules rumours. :D I'd also love to see Corpse Carts bolster zombies. Maybe giving them or improving on something like the Necron rumour about standing back up on a 5+ after combat has been resolved. So if the unit is wiped out then it's gone if not the zombies start standing back up. It sounds very wishful but it is a mechanic 40k will likely see and it also makes a lot of sense when considering the way GW have been trying to standardize the way magic works and so the loss of spamming may be mitigated by having our guys (at least zombies) stand up by themselves.
 
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