Official Rumour Thread: New Vampire Counts Book

[Tim]

They have terror, if you force a test on strafe I don't know, but I would guess not so.

 

[Mr Saturday]

That then is the question, do the cause a test on strafe? I doubt it too, and I very much doubt they can strafe units in combat, but still, maybe...

 

[Sanai]

I imagine strafing should inflict terror... whats scarier than a bunch of mounted wraiths coming screaming out of nowhere, decapitating half of your comrades, passing straight through your unit and dissapearing back off into the mist?

 

[xxSLAYERxx]

thinking about it the hex wraiths could be even more deadly with the combination of staff of the damned....meaning that they will get twice as many attacks....combine that with vanhels and enemy is in trouble. if ur grave guard unit is nearby then they will get 40+ attacks.....not many things can withstand such a huge ammount of punishment

 

[Tim]

Just read at warseer that batswarms cause asl to enemy units it's in combat with, my 6 batswarms don't look so useless now.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Really? Wow that makes them very useful, especially with their increased stats. The problem will be finding some decent models.

 

[Vege Zombie]

Just read at warseer that batswarms cause asl to enemy units it's in combat with, my 6 batswarms don't look so useless now.

YAY! I've always wanted to field batswarms because i like the fluff and the models and now they could be quite useful too with +1 A and W and +3 I

 

[Adam_Barrow]

Just read at warseer that batswarms cause asl to enemy units it's in combat with, my 6 batswarms don't look so useless now.

Now /that/ is interesting. I was worried about losing a Danse charge, but that looks like a nice little trick to help swing combats more our way. Combined with ME giving regen and my two big fears are tempered a little (the other being IoN spam changes), and both fixes will need a good general to pull off. Well done, GW. (Nobody tell them I said that).

 

[Sanai]

So, I imagine perhaps field a few small units of batswarms alongside your other units and pitch them into the combat with your normal units just for the ASL?

 

[Tim]

I can also see batswarms and our MI or varghulf taking care of enemy MI and such, very interesting concept.

 

[N.I.B]

and we're a much slower army now, in a game that's pretty much decided in the movement phase. No Ghoulkin, no Vanhels charges, no spamming movement with Vanhels either, no Vampire march bubbles.

Our core blocks are definitely slower, but it looks like we have more options for fast flankers around the side, with Direwolves, Hexwraiths, Varghulfs, Vargheists (sp?), Fellbats...
Is no charging with Van Hel's confirmed?

Also, every vampire will have access to VHD if they want it.

Other options we'll have for increased movement is Fellbats with Summon Creatures of the Night

How come our flanks are faster when we lose the Vampire march bubble? Fell Bats and Dire Wolves can't march on the flanks now, neither Hexwraiths. The only fast flanks we gained are Vargheists.

Yes, it is confirmed that you cannot charge with Vanhels.

How can every vampire have access to Vanhels if I wish it? Don't you need to roll for spells anymore? And I haven't seen anything that says Vanhels be multiplied in a VC army.

In which way are Fell Bats faster if their unit can be increased? You mean you gain a few inches when you add models? Summone Creatures of the Night was always underwhelming, I don't see that changing with this book. Maybe now that Bat Swarms confers ASL to enemies, remains to be seen.

Ghouls are still our best core, Zombies and Dire Wolves tied at second. Skellies for fluff games.

I personally am hoping this is not the case. Can ghouls be affected by IoN? I know Zombies and Skeletons can so this may not be a true statement; my gut tells me an army without ghouls will be viable and effective with the points allocated to other core units (bats/wolves). Blocks to win combat would be Grave Guard and Ghouls, but I could see Zombies being used to hold up opponents and not give away too much CR depending on the foe.

Ghouls are still our only core that don't need to be babysat, freeing up your hard stretched points to invest in offense.
I see Zombies returning as the caster bunker of choice, and as CR trains fronted by 5 Wraiths, breaking Steadfast.
Skellies are a less point-effective, but aesthetical choice.

Our Vampire spells are nerfed, even shorter ranges than before, or harder to cast.

IoN is much better in my opinion. Can't spam it, but the effect of the spell itself is awesome.

Why? The range for the basic level is nerfed to one third while the casting requirement went up by 50%, of the current spammable one. We don't know the cost for the 18" level, but a guess would be somewhere around 12, to help out your spearhead units and fighting characters.
We lose the ability to easily heal one target unit at distance, and gain healing power to a defensive backline army. Thus we lose mobility in an indirect way. Add the loss of Blooddrinker Sword. The Mortis Engine is also designed to back up a VC army cramped into a small area, likewise the Corpse Cart and other things. Some armies will have a field day, darting around us and whittle us down.
Varghulf and Vargheists seem to lack The Hunger, meaning they are also dependant on high casting magic to heal.

Seems like the caster lord with Shadow is going to be the competitive build. The only reason I've played with Vampire lore in 8th ed so far, has been Vanhels. And now it's gone (the part that matters), which means Shadow is better.

A fighting Vampire character looks ok. Still has the same flaws, and am I mistaken or do they have access to worse protection this time around? Still, for 40pts, it looks like they can get WS9, ASF, and reroll misses against most foes. Good protection in challenges. Also, red fury can be combined with a conventional Great Weapon allowing for points to be spent on protection. Good for hero level vampires.

Lost Gem of Blood.
Lost Cadaverous Cuirass.
Lost Flayed Hauberk.
Lost Blooddrinker Sword (The Hunger is a gimmick in comparison).
So, Vampires can no longer be immune to killing blow or poison. Maybe balanced by a necro taking over when you die, but not in any direct defensive way.
WS9 makes WS4 hit you on 5's, that's the main defensive gain. But compulsory challenges are a huge drawback - in 8th ed you need your lord to sift though the chaff, not be held up in a stupid challenge while you opponent leeches free CR from your subpar unit. If you build for challenges, you're building to enhance what's already strong in the VC army, while you're not covering the weaknesses (weak units and poor damage output).

 

[Pyre]

As much as I really want to be optimistic, my vampires have done right be me for a long time, I completely agree with N.I.B. These changes in reality seem to just push us even further toward death star builds and all our units clumped together in the middle. None of the flanking units matter if they have to stay within 12" of the general to march. Yes a 12" bubble is large, but in the age of ten wide hordes it takes some serious distance to really flank anything. Ethereal fast cavalry that has to stay in the middle of the board kind of seem pointless to me.

The idea that combat vampires are more capable now, or more attractive, doesn't make any sense either. We lost so much in the way of defensive "tricks." In addition to what was listed we lost the Cursed Book, which was amazing for surviving that first turn of hatred that so many armies have access to now. We lost our cheap 4+ ward hat, and we lost the Crown of Command so the dueling Wight King is a lot harder to pull off now.

So I get to send a less protected lord into a combat where he has to accept challenges and should he die I run the risk of loosing numerous models across the board?! Yay me! How is this any different than the current book?

I'm still waiting to see the book before I decide anything fully, but I've put painting my Lizards on a much higher priority for the upcoming tournie season.


Pyre

 

[Grish]

and we're a much slower army now, in a game that's pretty much decided in the movement phase. No Ghoulkin, no Vanhels charges, no spamming movement with Vanhels either, no Vampire march bubbles.

Our core blocks are definitely slower, but it looks like we have more options for fast flankers around the side, with Direwolves, Hexwraiths, Varghulfs, Vargheists (sp?), Fellbats...
Is no charging with Van Hel's confirmed?

Also, every vampire will have access to VHD if they want it.

Other options we'll have for increased movement is Fellbats with Summon Creatures of the Night

How come our flanks are faster when we lose the Vampire march bubble? Fell Bats and Dire Wolves can't march on the flanks now, neither Hexwraiths. The only fast flanks we gained are Vargheists.

Yes, it is confirmed that you cannot charge with Vanhels.

How can every vampire have access to Vanhels if I wish it? Don't you need to roll for spells anymore? And I haven't seen anything that says Vanhels be multiplied in a VC army.

In which way are Fell Bats faster if their unit can be increased? You mean you gain a few inches when you add models? Summone Creatures of the Night was always underwhelming, I don't see that changing with this book. Maybe now that Bat Swarms confers ASL to enemies, remains to be seen.

Our flanks should be faster with the Vanguard rule for Wolves and Hex Wraiths; please correct me if the rumours I've heard are not true. 12" Move off the hop, and if your Vamp is within 12", then an additional 18" move for Wolves. Possibly around 25" up the board first turn. That's a lot of setup movement.
From what I've heard, Van Hel's is our signature spell. Is this not the case? Is it merely a level 1 spell? If it is a signature spell, anyone can take it.

Ghouls are still our best core, Zombies and Dire Wolves tied at second. Skellies for fluff games.

I personally am hoping this is not the case. Can ghouls be affected by IoN? I know Zombies and Skeletons can so this may not be a true statement; my gut tells me an army without ghouls will be viable and effective with the points allocated to other core units (bats/wolves). Blocks to win combat would be Grave Guard and Ghouls, but I could see Zombies being used to hold up opponents and not give away too much CR depending on the foe.

Ghouls are still our only core that don't need to be babysat, freeing up your hard stretched points to invest in offense.
I see Zombies returning as the caster bunker of choice, and as CR trains fronted by 5 Wraiths, breaking Steadfast.
Skellies are a less point-effective, but aesthetical choice.

Yes, ghouls will be our only core that doesn't need to be babysat, agree with you. But I think we'll have numerous choices for core that will hopefully be effective. Batswarms sound interesting, Dire Wolves with Vanguard can move extremely quickly up the board to threaten Warmachines, weapon teams, small groups of gunlines... I'm hoping you can use Zombies and use the remaining points on core options that give your list flexibility. For their point cost, I'm not sure Ghouls are the best way to spend points. We'll see soon...

Our Vampire spells are nerfed, even shorter ranges than before, or harder to cast.

IoN is much better in my opinion. Can't spam it, but the effect of the spell itself is awesome.

Why? The range for the basic level is nerfed to one third while the casting requirement went up by 50%, of the current spammable one. We don't know the cost for the 18" level, but a guess would be somewhere around 12, to help out your spearhead units and fighting characters.
We lose the ability to easily heal one target unit at distance, and gain healing power to a defensive backline army. Thus we lose mobility in an indirect way. Add the loss of Blooddrinker Sword. The Mortis Engine is also designed to back up a VC army cramped into a small area, likewise the Corpse Cart and other things. Some armies will have a field day, darting around us and whittle us down.
Varghulf and Vargheists seem to lack The Hunger, meaning they are also dependant on high casting magic to heal.

In the last book, you either had to have cheap casters use 1 dice on IoN, or if you wanted to use it with your main caster, 2 dice. Otherwise you were risking a 1/3 chance of not casting for the rest of that round. Whether a spell is 3+ or 7+, a strong main caster using 2 dice has equal chance to make them. I do not see the somewhat increased cost as much of a negative.
The decreased range is a pain. Healing d6+caster level is huge though. It gives (hopefully) the ability to engage multiple units at once. If you are bunched up, a successful casting will raise 7.5 models per unit affected. For units like Grave Guard and Black Knights (which I hear are affected as equally as Zombie units), that is a big spell to get off.

Seems like the caster lord with Shadow is going to be the competitive build. The only reason I've played with Vampire lore in 8th ed so far, has been Vanhels. And now it's gone (the part that matters), which means Shadow is better.

A fighting Vampire character looks ok. Still has the same flaws, and am I mistaken or do they have access to worse protection this time around? Still, for 40pts, it looks like they can get WS9, ASF, and reroll misses against most foes. Good protection in challenges. Also, red fury can be combined with a conventional Great Weapon allowing for points to be spent on protection. Good for hero level vampires.

Lost Gem of Blood.
Lost Cadaverous Cuirass.
Lost Flayed Hauberk.
Lost Blooddrinker Sword (The Hunger is a gimmick in comparison).
So, Vampires can no longer be immune to killing blow or poison. Maybe balanced by a necro taking over when you die, but not in any direct defensive way.
WS9 makes WS4 hit you on 5's, that's the main defensive gain. But compulsory challenges are a huge drawback - in 8th ed you need your lord to sift though the chaff, not be held up in a stupid challenge while you opponent leeches free CR from your subpar unit. If you build for challenges, you're building to enhance what's already strong in the VC army, while you're not covering the weaknesses (weak units and poor damage output).

Flayed Hauberk and Cuirass are our biggest losses. Blooddrinker in some builds (death star builds). Also, lost my favourite peice of gear: crown of the damned.
Still, a hero level vampire can have WS8, which will keep WS3 rank and file from hitting him on a 5+. Are they at A3 or A4 now? Completely agree about the compulsorary challenges. I still think it may be worth it on a Hero level vamp. WS8 is much better than WS6.


I honestly think our army will play so much more differently than the old one we'll get a decent amount of movement around the flanks to hit gunlines. Our hordes will just go straight towards them.

Remember 6th, when some of the units really changed the game? Granted it was straight up static CR, but Spirit Hosts may make a return as a tarpit. I see all these shiny rules and units, and their interactions seem so much different that my initial impressions are most armies will field a big block of Grave Guard or Black Knights (if IoN can raise d6+lvl black knights that would be ridiculous...), core points will be spent differently depending if you are looking for a fast army or a horde army; either Ghouls or perhaps Zombies with Dire Wolves up the flanks in a mounted list.

I think you're more up to date on the Rumour mill NIB, but I still am hopeful that we'll have enough tools to field a FUN army, and win or lose, that's what I want.

 

[Pietr Von Carstein]

Vampires have 4 attacks.

 

[Zephyr]

Really? Wow that makes them very useful, especially with their increased stats. The problem will be finding some decent models.

Same here, I sold my old swarms but they were fugly anyway. The bats from lord of the rings are okay though if you want GW models. They're like little bat tornadoes! I've seen many nice models for infantry and such but not swarms. There were some good ones in a thread somewhere but they had gravestones in the form of crucifixes and I don't want those because of fluff.

 

[Nagashizzar]

Vampires have 4 attacks.

Lord has 5 attacks in the new book, confirmed in the white dwarfs

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Well apart from losing all variety in our character builds by getting a few extra flanking units at regular foot solider speed I don't see an improvement anywhere.
On the flip side it may mean people will start to prefer Matt Ward.... A scary thought I know.

Even with the Vanguard it won't be faster, they will be off the marks quick then stranded in no mans land in perfect range of all missile fire with any support miles behind.
The question I want answered is if we can all Invocation... If not we are really screwed considering they almost got us as bad as they did Tomb Kings with range.

Fell Bats and Bat swarms appear to be gaining some use now though, provided they are not priced through the roof I may invest in them.

Move quickly at 10 inches?
Thats slightly faster than foot troops so no that won't help, We are going to have to really on huge blocks of troops to get across the field anyway that will be more use for soaking up enemy fire than actually fighting, even against men at arms and state troops they will have their work cut out, if you run into one of the legions of chaos warriors players about these days with death star units you are royally screwed.

Ghouls without raising will not be the best because they will be targeted to death unless you put a unit of crap in front of them to soak up enemy fire power.


An increased casting value is a huge negative considering anyone casting who is not a powerful wizard will have a hard time with 2 dice on its most basic level.
D6 + Caster is good if you are casting on a powerful wizard, otherwise its sub par and does very little for you in the long run.

The new rules have taken all the good stuff away from the army and replaced it with flashy crap.
In combat we will be ripped apart and at range cannons will blow the hell out of our clustered units....

I see most people using bats if possible for core on the flanks for the bare minimum needed and a pair of large GG bunkers in the center marching up the field.
Anything less will be butchered with the exception of ghouls of course, A undead army that can not raise..... What the hell are we paying the extra 4 points for?

I will let the marching rubbish go though If a vampire in the unit allows them too, then black knights will be viable.

 

[NicholasLeMort]

Ghouls and Crypt Horrors are now officialy "alive" and so most likely won't be raisable (as per the GW what's new today under the CG + CH photo) and Vampiric units can definitely march in the game, even out of the 12" general bubble (same post under vargheists)

this has all proably been confirmed but at least now its official

 

[Nagashizzar]

Ghouls and Crypt Horrors are now officialy "alive" and so most likely won't be raisable (as per the GW what's new today under the CG + CH photo) and Vampiric units can definitely march in the game, even out of the 12" general bubble (same post under vargheists)

this has all proably been confirmed but at least now its official

Crypt ghouls and ghouls are listed as undead but ion cannot raise them

 

[Pietr Von Carstein]

Vampires have 4 attacks.

Lord has 5 attacks in the new book, confirmed in the white dwarfs

And I said nothing about a vampire lord. Grish asked how many attcks vampires had.
All the stats have also been on the gw site for a couple of days.

 

[Mad 'At]

But... but on "what's new today" they wrote this about black knights:

Remember that they can benefit from Invocation of Nehek just like the rest of your army

I take it that ghouls are part of our army so we should be able to raise them. Then again, this might not be a very good source...

Edit: I wish we could get the term Vampire Thrall back, just to avoid confusion...

 

[Grish]

I personally didn't see much variety in lists or characters here for a long time. All characters had MotBA + (DA/FL) or Red Fury / Infinite Hatred. Didn't see much more than that.

With the cheapness of wolves, I don't see it as a big issue. A board is commonly 48" across. Put on the starting line of 12", then moving 25", then a charge range of 9"+2d6... they can get to where they need to go. Also, they're pretty darn cheap. Their uses are Warmachine hunting, placement drops, and redirectors. Besides having to go a long way around placements of troops, I don't see how this hurts them too much.

Fellbats have lost their movement as no Vanguard.
Ethereal Cav might be fine as they can move through blocks, and can be kept closer to the middle.

The way I played, I didn't have lesser casters doing much IoN for me. I felt other spells were better bang for the buck. How is d6+ caster level in a burst subpar? What is the par you are using? D6 to one unit last edition, that normally took two dice to cast anyways...? Doing the math on that, the burst is better barring range restrictions.

Anyways. Time will tell, but I don't think this is flashy crap.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Never listen to GW articles, they never know their own rules.....

I just hope Isabella is allot more powerful now so as to afford her new price tag of 85 points more than the old one.

With the new ethereal cav I would keep them close by and dart them around the moment your massive troop blocks anchor them in combat.
The new invocation though not only raises less but it has a much larger range restriction and can be dispelled..... Then your done because you used your only cast of it because its now one spell.

 

[piratemonkey124]

Did you even read the new ion? Why don't you stop crying already? Stop playing vc and whine on another board. You haven't even seen the complete rules. You keep blubbering over speculation.
Take you to MC Donald's get you a wah Burger and some French cries.

Never listen to GW articles, they never know their own rules.....

I just hope Isabella is allot more powerful now so as to afford her new price tag of 85 points more than the old one.

With the new ethereal cav I would keep them close by and dart them around the moment your massive troop blocks anchor them in combat.
The new invocation though not only raises less but it has a much larger range restriction and can be dispelled..... Then your done because you used your only cast of it because its now one spell.

 

[Grish]

I don't see how this IoN is any less. Let's compare.

Old IoN:
Cast on 4+. Means either you throw 1 die on a crummy vampire to raise d6 Infantry troops, or 1 wound on non infantry. Good range, not really spammable with a caster type unless you do it after casting all your other spells.
Average troops raised per casting (assuming infantry): 3.5.
All casters had this spell.
IMO, not spammable. Either you're using a crummy lvl1 to do your casting, using your powerdice with a +1 to cast, or you're using your powerful vampire. Either way, I wouldn't want to allocate dice to my lesser vamps/necros until my main vamp was done.
Good range. Vamp could be a good distance away.

Old SUH:
Cast on 12+, meaning 3 dice at least for a regular caster.
Can't spam.
Realistically, only one vamp was casting this spell per round. You might have two vamps that know the spell, but you'd also have to allocate a ton of dice to a lesser vamp to cast this.
Good Range.
Heals a total of 10.5 wounds on average.


New IoN:
Casting value is variable. At the low end, most casters can reliably cast this with two dice.
IMO, more spammable. Using two dice on a crummy vampire, the effects can still be huge. Using two dice on the old IoN to a lesser vampire wouldn't have the same effect (barring range).
Raises d6+lvl per unit. Given a list based on this, a lvl3 or lvl4 caster should be viable. With two units, that's 13-15 models raised assuming infantry. One casting of this base spell, by a lvl3 or 4, raises more total wounds than SUH. And honestly, you could easily have 3 or 4 units around.
Bad range, but can be accoutned for by good movement.

Overall, I like the new IoN. It doesn't play to our old style (engage with Death star unit and heal them like mad) but we could definitely have a new style.

I honestly do not understand how you think this is so much worse than the other IoN.