Rule clarification for Black coach

[Grish]

It may not make sense to you, but it's an English game written with English rules for people that speak English. We understand just fine. If you do not; thats fine too.

No idea what dark matter has to do with this. You actually CAN measure it's existence. You just can't see it. Good verbal thrust, comparing rules you don't understand to phenomena you don't understand.

 

[Danceman]

I am reading the magic phase rules, not the box of Winds of Magic. However, it would be useful, I think, to see that at the very start of the rules pertaining to the magic phase it states what starts off the phase. So as per RAW I can't see how you would be able to skip your Evocation roll.

 

[Abbysal]

Page 29 Aramoro page 29.

The Magic Phase STARTS with both sides determining how much magical energy can be tapped into. In 7th edition you built your pool and then commenced the Magic phase 8th is no different and it clearly states that the Magic phase is triggered by this action!:zombie:

 

[Aramoro]

I'm not reading the box out either, turn the page to page 30 and it tells you how and when you determine the strength of the Winds of Magic.

It happens at the Start of the Magic Phase. If it said 'To Start the Magic Phase Roll 2D6 yadda yadda' Then you would have a point.

Aramoro

 

[Aramoro]

Page 29 Aramoro page 29.

The Magic Phase STARTS with both sides determining how much magical energy can be tapped into. In 7th edition you built your pool and then commenced the Magic phase 8th is no different and it clearly states that the Magic phase is triggered by this action!:zombie:

How many Dice are in your Power Pool at that point? How do you get Dice into your Power Pool? When do you roll the Winds of Magic? Answer those question with quotes from the Rule book.

I'll give you a hint

At the Start of each Magic Phase, the casting player determines the strength of the Winds of Magic by rolling 2D6

Aramoro

 

[Abbysal]

It may not make sense to you, but it's an English game written with English rules for people that speak English. We understand just fine. If you do not; thats fine too.

It's written in other languages as well Grish and to be honest that's a little offensive! I'll check the understanding in Chinese tomorrow and I bet your wrong in that language too!!:zombie:

 

[Abbysal]

I'll give you a hint

At the Start of each Magic Phase, the casting player determines the strength of the Winds of Magic by rolling 2D6

Your right and coupled with the wording that the phase starts with both sides determining this means it happens before Evo. Tell me where it states that the first thing that happens could be anything other than WOM.:zombie:

 

[Danceman]

They are not mutually exclusive.

Page 29 says ;"The magic phase starts with both sides determining how much magical power can be tapped into this turn".

Page 30 says; "At the start...

Page says you start off the magic phase by roll WoM and the WoM box says it happends at the start.

 

[Aramoro]

I'll give you a hint

At the Start of each Magic Phase, the casting player determines the strength of the Winds of Magic by rolling 2D6

Your right and coupled with the wording that the phase starts with both sides determining this means it happens before Evo. Tell me where it states that the first thing that happens could be anything other than WOM.:zombie:

It happens at the Start of the Magic Phase, Evocation happens at the start of the Magic Phase, Sequencing on Page 10.

There you go.

Page says you start off the magic phase by roll WoM and the WoM box says it happends at the start.

you are 100% correct it happens at the Start. Just like say anything else which happens at the start of the Magic Phase. Like say Evocation.

Aramoro

 

[Grish]

That's fine; but is it written in Chinese and translated to English?

Everyone can agree that information is lost in most translations. The game is written in English, then ported to different languages. In my opinion, if a Chinese rulebook had a different interpretation that an English rulebook, and two people were playing each other, whatever region rules you are in would take effect.

This particular discussion on the Rules for the Black Coach is English only I think. Another rulebook may have different rules which force a different interpretation. But we're discussing this on an English warhammer forum. I think it's implied in all of these discussion the rules are for the English warhammer rules.

This also makes me believe that the English, original version should be THE go-to rulebook for interpretations. And that means an English rulebook should be interpreted by people that have an excellent grasp of the English language. Not just of the language, but of the culture ingrained in the language.

I also wouldn't go to a Chinese warhammer forum and argue rules written in Chinese... it's not my native language. If a Chinese forum concurred on the meaning of a sentence, I would bow to their superior language skills.

My 0.02.

 

[Zanthor]

Which means that the Evocation will likely NEVER be used in the opponents magic phase, and seldom in one's own magic phase, which is clearly not the intent. Further, by the same logic one could claim that you could roll the dice before channeling, or perhaps even after you've rolled one of the dice, but not both. Errrrt! Thanks for playing!

 

[Aramoro]

Which means that the Evocation will likely NEVER be used in the opponents magic phase, and seldom in one's own magic phase, which is clearly not the intent.

You're quite correct, it will never really get played like this except in really hardline tourney. It's not the Intent nor is its just a curiosity of the rules nothing more.

Aramoro

 

[Danceman]

you are 100% correct it happens at the Start. Just like say anything else which happens at the start of the Magic Phase. Like say Evocation.

Aramoro

Evocation it does not say you start the magic phase with rolling for it. That's the point and the point still stands as no other rule in the game have this in its description.

I see the point that it also stats it happends "at the start" but I can't see any reason why we would ignore the writing on page 29 which specifically states this is what actually starts the magic phase.

Let's say we've got 4 effects which have the rules;
At the start...
At the start...
At the start...
But the 4th effect say in addition to "At the start..." it also says it starts the magic phase. So in effect without resolving this effect you cannot actually start the magic phase, infact, it won't start without it.

In other words, the wording on page 29 and 30 are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Aramoro]

Roll the Winds of Magic does not start the Magic Phase, it happens at the Start of the Magic Phase, it says so. What starts the Magic Phase is the Magic Phase starting. The Magic Phase does not start with the Winds of Magic roll, It starts with 'Both sides determining how much magical power can be tapped into this turn'

Aramoro

 

[Danceman]

How do you determine how much power dice and dispell dice you have, then, if not by WoM? The headline is a "Sequence of the Magic Phase" and it details this as the start. Do you use another method of determining power and dispell dice?

 

[Aramoro]

I determine them following the rules on Page 30, At the Start of the Magic Phase I roll 2D6, I get the total in Power Dice. It undeniably happens at the start of the Magic Phase. But so does anything else which happens at the start of the magic phase. That's why we have the sequencing rules.

 

[Lord Fear]

Haha, what an absolute classic thread this has turned into. Aspirins for everyone from all the had banging against walls, I think

I think Aromaro deserves a special pill for insisting that the rule stating "The magic phase starts with both sides determining how much magical power can be tapped into this turn" does not matter. No matter how many times it gets quoted to him, he insists the only reference is the one on P30. Absolutely fantastic

In fact, the form for the rules shares some similarity:
WoM
1) The magic phase starts with both sides determining how much magical power can be tapped into this turn
2) At the Start of each Magic Phase, the casting player determines the strength of the Winds of Magic by rolling 2D6

EoD
1) At the start of every magic phase the black coach can absorb magical energy.
2) Roll the dice in the power dice pool.

So, apparently, WoM/1 doesn't really apply, because WoM/2 then says something that is the same-but-different. However, for EoD, we absolutely must consider the EoD/1 to take priority and claim the commands of EoD/2 as their own. Yet WoM/2 totally overrides WoM/1. It's just so beautifully inconsistent

At the end of the day though, we all know how it's really meant to work, and EoD/1 only exists to muddy the issue as there was no sequencing start of the magic phase in the last edition. I'd like to say that no tournament organiser would ever rule it that way, but some people do take the argument too far and insist that others play the silly way, and that's their problem, because they are slaves to RAW and it will ruin their own games. Whereas guys like Aromaro, even if some of us don't agree with him, should recognise he's only making an argument as devil's advocate. He's not actually the devil, however :devil2: or is he? :devil2:

 

[Danceman]

Why do you ignore the rules on page 29 then? Why ignore a sentence of which quite clearly say that this is what actually starts the magic phase?

 

[Aramoro]

No I am not the devil heh. And it's Aramoro incidentally.

I see where you're coming from but you're comparing Apples and rotund Pears there. Similar but not the same.

The magic phase starts with both sides determining how much magical power can be tapped into this turn

That line is not from the Roll the Winds of Magic section. it's from the description of the start of the Magic Phase.

What do you do at the start of your Magic Phase? You do step 1 of the Magic Phase sequence which is Roll the Winds of Magic...

I'm not discounting that section from the description of the Magic Phase. But it doesn't tell you what to do or how to do it, it does not say Roll the Winds of Magic. Maybe you use a Ouija Board to channel the magic spirits? You then move onto Step 1 of the Magic Phase Sequence which tells you exactly what to do and when you do it.

Aramoro

 

[Danceman]

It tells you that the magic starts with this sequence(ie, the winds of magic, channel, etc etc). If you do not start to generate your magic dice the magic phase cannot start, because as the as per page 29 the magic phase starts with generating your magic dice. I do not need an Ouija Board for this, just the rules written on page 29 and onwards. I am perfectly aware of what it says on page 30 as well but once again, there is no condraction between page 29 and 30 and therefore no reason why we shouldn't follow what is written on page 29.

You can't just cherry-pick rules you like and ignore what is written before it.

 

[Lord Fear]

That's a very good way of looking at it. It's right there in black and white, the magic phase starts when you roll the dice to generate the winds of magic. Until you have performed the action to determine the amount of magical power generated, the magic phase simply has not started. And since you have to be at the start of the magic phase for Evocation of Death, you must have already rolled the dice to determine the power level before you can roll them to determine if they're absorbed.

QED. Nicely put danceman.

 

[vonkrolok]

Yeah, thanks a bunch Danceman for writing again what we're all trying to say, only with our somehow less efficient wording.
because the whole sentence could be rewritten

The magic phase starts with both players determining how much magic power is tapped into this turn by rolling 2D6.

Thanks also to Abbysal too who stood in favour of the international community: it is all in the interest of GW to have an international market, so the game might be written in English, but an extra effort has to be made in order to expand the market and I'm sure at GW the policy is against any linguistic xenophobic behaviour.

Besides, thank you all for an absolute unnecessary effort in fighting for nothing since the rules will be amended soon since this Sequencing issue is common to more than just VC players, as I'm sure too that the solution will please NOONE. In the meantime we just used hosting space for no good reason and fought against each other just for a bunch of flies (although understanding people from extremised behaviour is always a great fun).

 

[Grish]

Definitely needs a FAQ. Agree with Aramoro that page 29 is mainly descriptors and not rules.

In my opinion, "determining how much magical power is available" does give clear indication that you roll Winds of Magic before anything else. As far as I'm concerned, you could use a Vortex Shard before Winds is rolled and "determining how much power is available" would be nothing.

This post has been discussed to death; let's let it die.

 

[Aramoro]

It tells you that the magic starts with this sequence(ie, the winds of magic, channel, etc etc). If you do not start to generate your magic dice the magic phase cannot start, because as the as per page 29 the magic phase starts with generating your magic dice. I do not need an Ouija Board for this, just the rules written on page 29 and onwards. I am perfectly aware of what it says on page 30 as well but once again, there is no condraction between page 29 and 30 and therefore no reason why we shouldn't follow what is written on page 29.

You can't just cherry-pick rules you like and ignore what is written before it.

Where does it say on that section on page 29 to start the Magic Phase by rolling the winds of magic? A quote from the book will be fine. Not something vague like determine power or anything, nothing like 'absorb magic etc'. But where does it say that You must roll the winds of magic to start the phase?

The answer is no where, that an interpretation of the rules not how they are written. Just as you cannot cherry pick rules you cannot ignore rules. The Winds of Magic roll tells you when it can do it, you cannot ignore that.

I do find it amusing that to counter a rules lawyering people are resorting to saying something which happens at the start of something is not happening at the start of something but rather starting with that thing right at the start but at the start obviously but the very start.

Nothing is required for a Phase to start other than the previous Phase ending. Then you do whatever happens at the start of the phase, luckily
The Winds of Magic Roll happens at the start of that phase.

Both rules use the same key phrase 'At the start of....' Thus they happen at the same time. Hence sequencing. I should probably drop this but it's fun to watch people grasping.

Aramoro

 

[Danceman]

That is exactly what I am not doing when I was typing that. I fully acknowledge what it says on Winds of Magic at page 30 and I am aware that it says "At the start of..." here. I am not arguing against that at all. I am, however, saying there is a passage on page 29, as well. Even if it says "at the start of..." at page 30 it also says, on page 29, that the magic phase starts by determining the magic dice. What I mean by previous statements that these rules are not mutually exclusive I mean this; Point 1. The magic starts with determining magic dice(WoM, channels, etc etc). Point 2. All of the above happends at the start of the magic phase.
Without determining the magic dice, there is no start and you do this at the start of the magic phase.

Now if you could, without sarcasm, actually give me a reason why I am grasping at straws. I've substansiated every claim so far with a direct quote from the rulebook.

Cheers, D.