Rule clarification for Black coach
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The Magic Phase is part of the Turn Sequence on page 12. It's a Phase so it happens after the preceding Phase ends. In this case the Magic Phase Starts when the Movement Phase ends. You then do everything which happens 'At the Start of the Magic Phase' respecting the Sequencing Rules.
This is just an oddity of the rules i'm actually baffled why it's so hard to understand.
Aramoro
This is just an oddity of the rules i'm actually baffled why it's so hard to understand.
Aramoro
This isn't rule preamble, this IS the sequencing of the magic phase which outrules any other aspecific Sequencing rule.
Anything that goes "At the beginning of the magic phase" should therefore and inevitably go after this.
No, the Magic Phase is started by the end of the Movement Phase, see the Turn Sequence. The Magic Phase cannot be triggered by something that happens inside the Magic Phase, that's a bit divide by zero there.
The Magic Phase starts, the active player rolls the winds of magic dice, he then forms his power pool based on that roll, the other player forms his dispel pool based on the highest dice rolled.
The Magic Phase Sequence is a rules preamble, you can see this as it doesn't actually contain any rules, just says whats going to happen.
Aramoro
The Magic Phase starts, the active player rolls the winds of magic dice, he then forms his power pool based on that roll, the other player forms his dispel pool based on the highest dice rolled.
The Magic Phase Sequence is a rules preamble, you can see this as it doesn't actually contain any rules, just says whats going to happen.
Aramoro
I don't know why you guys are arguing so hard against Aramoro. His argument is valid.
vonkrolok quoted the rule; as far as I'm concerned, it reads "The Magic Phase starts...". Approximately the same rules exist for the Coach.
"At start of magic phase do undefined action." "Totally unrelated to the last Sentence, do this." (I don't buy that the sentences are unrelated, and I don't buy the intent of the Coach is to go after the magic phase either). One says "The magic phase starts" the other says "at start of magic phase". Same timing IMO.
By RAW, I'm most comfortable with Aramoro's stance. I won't play it that way, because I don't think it's intended to be that way, and RAI I really don't think that's correct, but by RAW it seems correct.
I think the strongest argument in this thread to push the Black Coach to go after WoM roll (but who knows after what else) was put forward by Bob the Liche. If additions to the pool must happen after the WoM roll as per the FAQ, then it seems implied removal also happens. But it is only implied.
@Abbysal: the Trigger for the Magic Phase is the end of the proceeding phase. You don't "Generate PD/DD -> Start of magic phase". That would mean generation of Dice falls outside the entire phase! Doesn't make sense.
Edit: BLAST! Ninja'd by Aramoro.
vonkrolok quoted the rule; as far as I'm concerned, it reads "The Magic Phase starts...". Approximately the same rules exist for the Coach.
"At start of magic phase do undefined action." "Totally unrelated to the last Sentence, do this." (I don't buy that the sentences are unrelated, and I don't buy the intent of the Coach is to go after the magic phase either). One says "The magic phase starts" the other says "at start of magic phase". Same timing IMO.
By RAW, I'm most comfortable with Aramoro's stance. I won't play it that way, because I don't think it's intended to be that way, and RAI I really don't think that's correct, but by RAW it seems correct.
I think the strongest argument in this thread to push the Black Coach to go after WoM roll (but who knows after what else) was put forward by Bob the Liche. If additions to the pool must happen after the WoM roll as per the FAQ, then it seems implied removal also happens. But it is only implied.
@Abbysal: the Trigger for the Magic Phase is the end of the proceeding phase. You don't "Generate PD/DD -> Start of magic phase". That would mean generation of Dice falls outside the entire phase! Doesn't make sense.
Edit: BLAST! Ninja'd by Aramoro.
It contains the Sequencing and not some fluff about magic, Sequencing is rules 'cuz otherwise this all discussion makes no frelling sense at all (if sequencing is not rules then everything regarding sequencing and RAW has no sense and we just wasted valuable hosting space)! The end of the Movement phase, as the name suggests is Movement phase, the Magic phase is another thing altogether and starts with a trigger, no trigger, no phase since the ONLY compulsory phase is the Combat phase once you're in base to base contact: you can move or stay and if you don't move there is no movement phase (of course in the absence of compulsory moves), you can shoot or decide you don't want to or you cannot shoot since all units are engaged and the same exactly goes on for the magic phase: you can decide to bring no caster at all so why the hell do you have to roll? as it works for the movement phase: in the absence of compulsory effects the magic phase is not something you have to do... no trigger, no phase, end of the story.
There is a profound difference between "The magic phase starts" and "at the beginning of the magic phase": one states that the incipit of the magic phase is given by one specific thing happening, without that thing happening the magic phase doesn't start, then once it's started, before anything else happens (at the beginning) you do the rest. One is an absolute statement (the magic phase starts) and the other one is a relative (at the beginning of...)... and this is RAW.
There is a profound difference between "The magic phase starts" and "at the beginning of the magic phase": one states that the incipit of the magic phase is given by one specific thing happening, without that thing happening the magic phase doesn't start, then once it's started, before anything else happens (at the beginning) you do the rest. One is an absolute statement (the magic phase starts) and the other one is a relative (at the beginning of...)... and this is RAW.
Wth... "if you don't move there's no movement phase"...??????
If you decide not to move/shoot/etc those phases still happen. Just nothing happens in that phase. If I have the Black Periapt and I'm playing Dwarves he can't 'skip' his magic phase to deny me storing a die. The magic phase still happens even if you have no Wizards, or don't wish it to happen. An O&G player can't 'skip' the movement phase because he doesn't wish to roll animosity.
A phase does not have a trigger per se. What triggers a phase is the end of the phase before it. You can't have the magic phase without doing the movement phase, in its entirety, first.
If you decide not to move/shoot/etc those phases still happen. Just nothing happens in that phase. If I have the Black Periapt and I'm playing Dwarves he can't 'skip' his magic phase to deny me storing a die. The magic phase still happens even if you have no Wizards, or don't wish it to happen. An O&G player can't 'skip' the movement phase because he doesn't wish to roll animosity.
A phase does not have a trigger per se. What triggers a phase is the end of the phase before it. You can't have the magic phase without doing the movement phase, in its entirety, first.
I disagree with that rule interpretation Abbysal.
If I say "My day starts with a cup of coffee" and I say "At the start of my day, I get dressed" its not clear which one I do first.
If I say "My day starts with a cup of coffee" and I say "At the start of my day, I get dressed" its not clear which one I do first.
Grish said:
What part of "in the absence of compulsory effects" did you NOT understand? Black Periapt, Vortex shard, Black coach and who knows what else, are items with compulsory effects. And would you be so kind to tell us what kinda movement phase have you got if in turn 1 you stand fast and you have no compulsory moves? That movement phase is completely skipped to the following so in your reasoning if I didn't finish the movement phase the magic phase could not start. Instead the magic phase, like so brilliantly is written in the specific chapter in the paragraph that speaks of Sequencing of the magic phase, is initiated by a procedure without which you would have no magic phase skipping to shooting.
I really don't think that's how the rule was intended to be played. I do think Evocation was intended to suck up, at the very least, the WoM roll. From the current RAW, I do think it's possible to sequence out Evocation of Death. RAW in the past has created all kinds of stupid things; even nerfed entire armies, let alone a single unit.Abbysal said:
Take for example Beastmen 6th edition to 7th edition. If you're not familiar with it, in 6th edition they had skirmishing units that formed into ranked units once they hit combat. However, the wording was they ranked up in ranks of 4 models per rank. In 6th, that meant they gained a rank bonus. When they switched it from 4 models/rank in 6th to 5 models/rank in 7th, that meant, by RAW, beastmen no longer formed units that generated a rank bonus. And Games Workshop held it up and didn't FAQ it (to fix it), even though everyone believed RAI they should form ranks. That was the purpose and intent of the rule and it was still ruled that they went from skirmishers that formed ranked units to... idiots. It was yet another rule that made them the crapiest army around.
Anyways, my point is that GW will sometimes apply RAW to bypass RAI. Sometimes not. Sometimes it will make absolutely no sense and go against how many people feel it should be played, but they'll still do it. Keep in mind, that either the Coach will be nerfed, or it will gain a sizeable boost in effectiveness this edition.
Don't try to mix common sense and RAW with warhammer; that can only lead to madness.
But yes, I DO believe there's a valid 'loop hole'. Let me be clear I don't play like this, and don't think it should be played like this, but I am a huge proponent of RAW. With RAI, each person may interpret the rules a little differently, and that can cause issues.
@vonkrolok: Black Periapt and Vortex shard are not compulsory.
If I play a Dwarf and he goes "Ok, movement's done. Onto shooting." Do I say, "Back up, I have an item I want to use in your magic phase"? What if I'm playing Demons against a Vampire opponent and have the Gift that forces an enemy to charge. If my opponent doesn't want to move in the movement phase, and so "skips it" and says, "Ok, magic phase #rolls dice#" do I see the results of the dice, then force him to go back to the movement phase if I don't like the results? Or if I was planning on forcing a charge, and he rolls low on the WoM, do I keep quiet and proceed?
The proper way to handle it is: Movement phase. I don't want to do anything in it. Do you? Then go to magic phase. You can't know if there's something to do in a phase until you actually go through it.
If I play a Dwarf and he goes "Ok, movement's done. Onto shooting." Do I say, "Back up, I have an item I want to use in your magic phase"? What if I'm playing Demons against a Vampire opponent and have the Gift that forces an enemy to charge. If my opponent doesn't want to move in the movement phase, and so "skips it" and says, "Ok, magic phase #rolls dice#" do I see the results of the dice, then force him to go back to the movement phase if I don't like the results? Or if I was planning on forcing a charge, and he rolls low on the WoM, do I keep quiet and proceed?
The proper way to handle it is: Movement phase. I don't want to do anything in it. Do you? Then go to magic phase. You can't know if there's something to do in a phase until you actually go through it.
Because it says so, read the rules and try again.
Yeah sure, but then the phase is skipped... obviously you have to agree on this between the two players, but you cannot do that with Combat and it's the only phase that cannot be skipped in any way possible: you have to fight because that's the whole point of playing. So thanks 'cuz you're actually confirming that phases can be skipped and this is the second point:
Aramoro, read the rules... then stir and repeat
vonkrolok, some of the other guys are making some good and valid, albeit incorrect arguments. I'm afraid you are making literally no sense at all. I cannot argue against you because you're just so far out there. Every Phase happens in every turn. That's just how the game works. You might not do anything in a phase but it still happened. Each Phase has a Phase Sequence which you follow. The Magic Phase Starts because your Movement Phase ended and you go to step 1 of the Phase Sequence which says 'At the start of the Magic Phase'.
I've read and understand the rules, I'm afraid the reverse may not be true.
Edit: Dammit Ninja'd
Aramoro
I've read and understand the rules, I'm afraid the reverse may not be true.
Edit: Dammit Ninja'd
Aramoro
Grish said:
Ok, I'm rolling on the floor laughing... so you do an empty phase, a phase in which you do nothing, almost unexisting... so there is no phase. It's ok, anglophones need a manual for everything, but really... this is hilarious... it's like dark matter: you can't see it, you can't measure it's existence, but it has to be there... c'mon...
Like Aramoro says;
"The magic phase starts with both sides determining how much magical power can be tapped into this turn".
Without the the winds of magic roll the magic phase does not start.
All other effects say "At the start..." but Winds of Magic actually state that it actually starts the magic phase, so anything happending before it would not be in the magic phase.
--
Edit; A public service announcement, don't feed the trolls!
"The magic phase starts with both sides determining how much magical power can be tapped into this turn".
Without the the winds of magic roll the magic phase does not start.
All other effects say "At the start..." but Winds of Magic actually state that it actually starts the magic phase, so anything happending before it would not be in the magic phase.
--
Edit; A public service announcement, don't feed the trolls!