So what good are Vargheists?

[Count Matthewzilla]

And if they challenge?

 

[Corien Sumatris]

You decline, Champions are not required to accept and do not move to the back if you decline.

 

[Count Matthewzilla]

Hmm.. my friends will prob call shenanagins due to rules lawyering, but this is solid.

 

[Corien Sumatris]

It falls entirely within the rules. They can lawyer away but they cannot find a rule to contradict it!

 

[Kindred]

Meh, played mine in a dozen games in a row, and at no point did they earn their points. One spell or shower of arrows and they're done for, they even charged a unit of marauders in the back and got wiped out in round anyway. I did find out something they're good for though!; selling on ebay, got 45 bucks.

 

[Ravenheart]

I've had a timely flank charge swing a combat against a horde of savage orc big'uns into my favour. I have found them to be better after they've LOST a round of combat. Losing 1 attack each and gaining the ability to control them is, in my opinion, a fair trade.

Of course, mine haven't lost many combats. It's all about choosing the right targets.

 

[Corien Sumatris]

I personally like the hexies better than vargs

 

[Ravenheart]

Hexwraiths have their place, of course. However, given that the meta in my area has a high number of WoC, daemons and elf players, their place is not in my list, lol.

 

[Corien Sumatris]

Lol yeah they're terrible against skaven too, but they can be soooo useful depending on the opponent.

 

[Count Matthewzilla]

I think i will b adding vargs hexies make me

 

[The Sun King]

Vargs are great. Warmachine hunting, wizard hunting, chaff clearing, support charging, scout killing... they do it all, and for cheap at that!

 

[Kindred]

Heres a hexwraith question i probly don't want to know the answer to; can you use soul-reaper while marching? I have to think you can, bc their normal movement is 8 inches, most units are 4 or 5" across, and you have to start and end your move 1" away from the unit you're reaping. Not being able to reap with the 16" move would make it essentially useless (as you're never going to start within 2" of a unit while neither of you is engaged and you have a good angle to run through), but I've heard differing opinions on the matter.

 

[Adam_Barrow]

Remaining Moves sub-phase only, so no March.

And if you're worried about 8" move, just dip a toe in the unit. Fast Cav.

 

[Kindred]

lol, every time I think VC has disappointed me as much as they can, they get just a little worse

 

[Blutsauger]

Don't marches take place in the remaining moves sub-phase?

 

[theknightofjello]

That's incorrect. Marching happens in the "remaining moves" phase. It's 1. Start of Turn 2. Charges 3. Compulsory moves 4. Remaining moves. Pg 26 of the BRB.... Move those hexies baby! Make'em Dance

 

[Worloch]

3. Keep them out of range. They have insane movement - use it. Get behind buildings and stuff like that(you can charge over the buildings).

Where in the rules are you allowed to charge over a building? Maybe you meant to say fly over the building?

Does this have something to do with them flying/frenzy? Wouldn't it block line of sight?

p.s. 3 dart vargheists with a champ just seems like a surefire way to assassinate a character. May need to add this to my list.

If you have the Fly special rule, you may choose to make a flying charge, moving over units and terrain and using the 10" Glide movement as its Movement Characteristic (BRB, pg 70).

However, you still need LoS to declare a charge (BRB, pg 16), so you can't charge over a Building to a unit you can't draw LoS to.

Sometimes you can finagle a charge over a building against a unit you can draw LoS to because you can see the unit extending beyond the building, and then charge over the building, but in general, it takes a bit of work and circumstance to pull off.

The end result remains that it would be a good idea to hide from units that want to shoot you, while also trying to get charges lined up on units you want to kill.

 

[The Sun King]

Worloch has the right of it - and welcome to the forum by the way!

Thing is, with true line of sight it is very easy to put your Vargs behind a building and still get line of sight. Don't believe me? You can use windows, cracks or simply place the outermost Varg so that it just peeps around the corner.

 

[HOneym]

Excellent machine hunters

 

[Ripper]

Excellent machine hunters

This is the most current Vargheist thread I could find and I didn't want to start a new one.

I just have a general question: Am I missing something? Why do people insist that VGs are too delicate?

They're skirmishing flyers, so they shouldn't ever be getting hit by ranged units at less than a -2 modifier for long range and skirmishers, and then an additional -1 if you're landing them in such a way that said ranged unit has to wheel or quick reform to shoot at them. Then at T4, even handguns only have a 50/50 chance of wounding.

So a unit of, for example, empire handgunners will get 10 shots, at BS4, -1 for long range, -1 for skirmishers, will be hitting on 6s so 2-3 hits and then wounding on 4s to 1-2 wounds. Not even enough to take a VG off, and then provided you're getting a flank charge, no stand and shoot, so you're into them on turn 2 at the latest and they should go in one round of combat.

I haven't used them yet, so I'm wondering if I'm just missing something here. With their ability to fly and skirmishers rules, I think they don't have a save because it would make them OP as they're so hard to hit at range, and fast enough to pick and choose who they engage in cc.

 

[Adam_Barrow]

@Ripper No Saves, T4.

 

[Ripper]

@Ripper No Saves, T4.

But against just about every war machine, they're more survivable than the terrorgheist or vargulf either of which is one-shottable. Vargheists get hit by a canon, you lose one 50 point guy. Stone thrower, provided your guys are spread out, will at worst kill one, mortar same thing, bolt thrower, etc...

Archers will be either -2 or -3 to hit, gunner won't be able to ever get them in the firing arc and not behind cover or engaged because they move too fast...

And with their speed, you should be able to pick your targets, there' no reason for these guys to ever end up charging a block of greatswords head-on. These guys shouldn't need more protection than toughness 4, frenzy to avoid panic and the speed to stay at long range to missiles. They should be in combat and thus unshootable by turn 3 at the absolute latest.

 

[RarerMonsters]

But against just about every war machine, they're more survivable than the terrorgheist or vargulf either of which is one-shottable.

Against Organ Guns, Hellblasters, RBTs, they're worse off. Also, cannons kill anything. Varghulf at least has a 50% save.

Archers will be either -2 or -3 to hit, gunner won't be able to ever get them in the firing arc and not behind cover or engaged because they move too fast...

Archers hitting on 5s and wounding on 5s will still burn stuff down fast with no save. This isn't even counting common very good shooters like leadbelchers, Sisters of Avelorn, Flamers, or Irondrakes.

You CAN run them around and keep them safe, and indeed that's how to play them, but that doesn't mean they aren't fragile, it means that you can potentially keep fragile units safe.

Vargheists are good, and people play them for this reason, but you asked why people say they're fragile. If you let them take serious shooting (which you shouldn't) they will die.

 

[Adam_Barrow]

I'm all for running them aggressively. They roll with my Lord on his Flying monster. I consider adding another small unit of them more and more. But a lot can go wrong with them, and there's no safety net in their statline or rules. They're deceptively fragile.

What size unit do you run?

 

[Ripper]

I'm working up 2 units of 4, they're going to run around with a vampire on a hellsteed.

I've jut had people tell me not to run vargheists at all and they just look very powerful to me on paper and in theory.