So what good are Vargheists?

[Ripper]

Against Organ Guns, Hellblasters, RBTs, they're worse off.

How?

RBT gets 4 shots, hitting on 4's. 2 hits. wounding on 4's. 1 wound.

Hellblasters and Organ guns have to roll to hit and will be -1 on BS 3 meaning hitting on 5's in the best case scenario. I can see how vargs are worse off than the tgeist here, but it's not that dramatic and these repeating guns have a tendency to jam.

I see how the biggest threat would be a large unit of archers, but with dire wolves for 40 points, we should be able to choose where we deploy our vargs and we can just avoid the archers all game.

 

[Demian]

Either have a larger unit (4 - 6 Varghs) and munch every and all shooters from turn 2 on, or... have those standard 3-man Vargs and have 2 units of Dire Wolves cover them until they reach safe charge range (17'' easy, plus they are still at long range). A combination of the two is even better!

Dogs in front will cover them for 1 turn (specially with vanguard), by turn 2 they should be charging. Volley gun is an entire different matter: ethereals!

 

[The Dead Rat]

How?

RBT gets 4 shots, hitting on 4's. 2 hits. wounding on 4's. 1 wound.

Repeater Bolt Throwers have six shots, and now there's usually more of them about since the point reduction (Which I think was pretty fair)

 

[Adam_Barrow]

I've jut had people tell me not to run vargheists at all and they just look very powerful to me on paper and in theory.

vargs have a lot of good uses, there are certain jobs they perform better than any unit in the book. Don't let folks dissuade you from using them of they fit your playstyle.

 

[RarerMonsters]

RBT gets 4 shots, hitting on 4's. 2 hits. wounding on 4's. 1 wound.

6 shots, and you'll get shot with 2, meaning a solid chance to vanish one or 2 vargs a turn.

Hellblasters and Organ guns have to roll to hit and will be -1 on BS 3 meaning hitting on 5's in the best case scenario. I can see how vargs are worse off than the tgeist here, but it's not that dramatic and these repeating guns have a tendency to jam.

Not anymore, the new dwarfs will get a +1 to hit off runes and an average of 12 shots. Hitting on 5s from across the board or 4s if you're near them, wounding on 3s. Optionally another +1 off an engineer. 12 shots, 4-6 hits, around 3-4 wounds. And that's before following up with quarellers or irondrakes. As for the empire hellblaster, it's not quite as bad, but they can follow up with multiple cannons.

I see how the biggest threat would be a large unit of archers, but with dire wolves for 40 points, we should be able to choose where we deploy our vargs and we can just avoid the archers all game.

That's not easy, but yeah, you can. You didn't ask if they're usable, you asked why people say they're fragile.

 

[Larro]

Nobody takes Irondrakes.

And yeah, if your whole army is shooting at the Vargs, of course they'll die. What a silly argument. You should be saturating the Dwarfs with plenty of targets. You can easily fit a Blender Lord + whatever Bus you want it to be, with 8-10 Crypts and 4-8 Vargs, depending on what else you desire, plus all the Chaff that makes VC good.

Everything I've heard about hating Vargs applies equally to the Terrorgheist, yet you all seem to love him. Not sure I get the disparity. You get almost 5 Vargs for 1 TG.

- Larry

 

[RarerMonsters]

Nobody takes Irondrakes.

The books been out less than a month, a bit early to declare something unusable.

And yeah, if your whole army is shooting at the Vargs, of course they'll die. What a silly argument.
You should be saturating the Dwarfs with plenty of targets. You can easily fit a Blender Lord + whatever Bus you want it to be, with 8-10 Crypts and 4-8 Vargs, depending on what else you desire, plus all the Chaff that makes VC good.

A smart opponent will immediately drop two organs at Vargheists, since they can rush the warmachine line the soonest.
AGAIN I didn't say that weren't good, I said they were vulnerable. In WHFB, T4 with no save is vulnerable, and will take wounds fast. Somethings, however, are good, despite being fragile.

Everything I've heard about hating Vargs applies equally to the Terrorgheist, yet you all seem to love him. Not sure I get the disparity. You get almost 5 Vargs for 1 TG.

- Larry

The terrorgheist is extremely fragile. He's very easy to kill for enemies with any amount of range. He's good though because a ranged attack targetting LD is an important boon that deals with a few key matchups when other VC stuff can't.

Hell, I'd argue VLs are fragile compared to comparably costed heroes. They're still great.

 

[Demian]

T4 and no saves with Fly, 3 wounds and a single vargheist can munch an entire Warmachine? so you have wounds to spare before a minimum-sized unit is lost?

well yeah!

Let us be clear on something:

An army that has THAT many shooting (2 Organ guns, 1-2 Units of Irondrakes, 1-2 engineers plus... what, 1 Unit of Crossbow/rifle-dwarves [forgot their names] and maybe 1-2 cannons to shoot at Terrogheists?) becomes less useful after turn 2/3 depending on your setup.

Those are a whole lot of points to spend on shooting attacks (hence the term "gunline" I suppose). So all you have to do is reach them and they will die in 1-2 turns. Vagheists here are to be the main menace, so all shots can be directed at them, but once you make 2 march moves with... say, Skeletons? Zombies? grave Guard or Crypt Horrors, the battle is yours, on your therms and shooty dudes can't handle a min-sized Zombie unit. Hell not even one spawned by Raise Dead (which IS your best ally against any gunline).

As I said, Vargheists can loose 8 wounds and still reach a Warmachine and stomp on it (maybe not Elven... because of ASF and higher Ini) but elves don't have the capacity to melt down 2 9-wound Unit in 1 turn with shooting AND just letting the Terrorgheist roam free to slaughter every Phoenix they encounter, for instance.

So, Vargheists ARE that good. They know once the big winged bastards get to their flanks / warmachine they are no longer a glass cannon anymore. Flank charges with those guys hurt!!


Last, I don't support playing just "open terrain so you can see everything" kinda games. Always go for random terrain / scenery. Towers, walls, fences, forests should be included in every game! Also hills and such. That wouldn't be very realistic / fair if you just play on a plain table. If you really need to deploy a building / obstacle, go for the Garden of Morr!!

Vargheists + obstacles or Dire Wolves are guaranteed to at least make a charge and start munching stuff!

 

[eggsPR]

I'm running 4 with a champ in a practice list for an upcoming tourney. I'm eager to master using them, for I think they are the most difficult VC unit to use properly.

 

[Aedin]

I just ran 2 units of 3 in a conga line with champ in a tournament. I was highly impressed with them. they can only suffer 3 wounds to the champ and have 7 str 5 attacks remaining with a stomp and dont need the generals march bubble. Good stuff for 148 points.

 

[Sanai]

I have seen Vargheists used as a unit for a winged vampire to fly around with spamming IoN and smashing things and it worked surprisingly well.

 

[Blutsauger]

I just ran 2 units of 3 in a conga line with champ in a tournament. I was highly impressed with them. they can only suffer 3 wounds to the champ and have 7 str 5 attacks remaining with a stomp and dont need the generals march bubble. Good stuff for 148 points.

If you're going to use them by exploiting a glitch in the rules, then of course they are going to perform well.

 

[Powl]

But unfortunately, characters can't join a unit of flyers. Would be nice to have a Vamp in with the Vargheists!

 

[Aedin]

I just ran 2 units of 3 in a conga line with champ in a tournament. I was highly impressed with them. they can only suffer 3 wounds to the champ and have 7 str 5 attacks remaining with a stomp and dont need the generals march bubble. Good stuff for 148 points.

If you're going to use them by exploiting a glitch in the rules, then of course they are going to perform well.

lol I hardly consider this an exploit. Especially when every army has access to the same tactic.

I play in a tournament metta where RAW is law. When I have to face a Cauldron of Blood and 40 repeater cross bowmen, 4 repeater bolt throwers, A wizard's spell and his additional str 1 hits ALL get to reroll wounds !!!!!!!

Im sorry but game on buster...

 

[RarerMonsters]

I just ran 2 units of 3 in a conga line with champ in a tournament. I was highly impressed with them. they can only suffer 3 wounds to the champ and have 7 str 5 attacks remaining with a stomp and dont need the generals march bubble. Good stuff for 148 points.

If you're going to use them by exploiting a glitch in the rules, then of course they are going to perform well.

lol I hardly consider this an exploit. Especially when every army has access to the same tactic.

I play in a tournament metta where RAW is law. When I have to face a Cauldron of Blood and 40 repeater cross bowmen, 4 repeater bolt throwers, A wizard's spell and his additional str 1 hits ALL get to reroll wounds !!!!!!!

Im sorry but game on buster...

I'm not sure what game you're playing where every army has flying monstrous infantry.

Congo lining is bad sportsmanship and hopeless rule exploitation. Players don't look more serious or hardcore for doing it, they look worse.

 

[eggsPR]

Conga lining is a part of 8th ed and a valid tactic used by all armies.

How about 3 wide BoTWD white lions with arch mages hiding behind the command group.

I don't see the above as bad sportsmanship in the slightest.

 

[RarerMonsters]

Conga lining is a part of 8th ed and a valid tactic used by all armies.

How about 3 wide BoTWD white lions with arch mages hiding behind the command group.

I don't see the above as bad sportsmanship in the slightest.

I'd call that a questionable tactic since you're running a deadly offensive block 3 wide, not nearly as devastating as an MI conga who only needs a frontage of one to get through enough attacks to matter.

I've never understood why the "serious" warhammer community has put so much effort into comping any unit or item or army that causes internet rage, but lets things like congo lining pass. It seems like our community can't decide whether they want to play a fluffy fantasy wargame or a hardcore chess match, but in either case we make too many exceptions for ourselves.

 

[Aedin]

Or how about a empire griffin knight conga line tar pit while 2 stanks slam you in the ribs. It happened to me !

 

[RarerMonsters]

Or how about a empire griffin knight conga line tar pit while 2 stanks slam you in the ribs. It happened to me !

Sounds pretty lousy. Sounds like he could have done the same with a normal grif block, but congo lining is an abusive strategy that makes strategies like that worse.

 

[Aedin]

All im saying is... "when in Rome"

 

[Blutsauger]

lol I hardly consider this an exploit. Especially when every army has access to the same tactic.

Conga lining is a part of 8th ed and a valid tactic used by all armies.

I don't know if any of you play Halo at all, but in the early days of Halo 4 there was a glitch in the Flood game type where you could hide inside a particular wall of a building, making it effectively impossible for anyone to get to you, thus winning the game.

This was a glitch. An unintended consequence of the way the game was constructed, which allowed players who utilised it to gain an advantage.

It was available to all players, but despite that was STILL a glitch. An unintended bonus that only existed only due to an error in the construction of the game.

Which is exactly what conga lining is. A glitch. An unexpected and unintended result. It is very poor form to exploit this.

If someone tries to conga line me, I concede the game. If they want to win their game of toy soldiers that badly, then they can have it. That's not the game I want to play.

I have no control over how you play your games, but I strongly encourage you NOT to exploit obvious glitches like conga lining.

 

[Demian]

The best thing that can happen in Warhammer (Fantasy.. as I don't play 40k) is facing an opponent so desperate to win as to use those glitches any and every time...

...and if you are good and Nagash was on your side, still winning.

But if not, just trying will make you a much better player, not only as a person, but as a Vampiric general!

And it may not be today, or tomorrow... but because of YOU one day the writters will bring Vlad von Carstein back and he will be Emperor!!!!!

!

 

[Aedin]

I dont understand how you can honestly call this a glitch.

First GW erratas crumble so that it cant allow overruns.

Then they find out about the conga line and errata it back but yet do nothing about the conga line.

From what I can tell this is an intended play tactic.

 

[Blutsauger]

I dont understand how you can honestly call this a glitch.

First GW erratas crumble so that it cant allow overruns.

Then they find out about the conga line and errata it back but yet do nothing about the conga line.

From what I can tell this is an intended play tactic.

It would require a significant rules adjustment to prohibit conga lines. The fact they haven't done so is not some kind of tacit approval of an obvious exploit of an obvious glitch.

If you want to use it, go for it. If you think it's an intended and tactic, then I'm not going to change your mind.

But rest assured people you use it against will be talking about that guy who uses conga lines.

 

[Patrunkenphat7]

I dont understand how you can honestly call this a glitch.

First GW erratas crumble so that it cant allow overruns.

Then they find out about the conga line and errata it back but yet do nothing about the conga line.

From what I can tell this is an intended play tactic.

It would require a significant rules adjustment to prohibit conga lines. The fact they haven't done so is not some kind of tacit approval of an obvious exploit of an obvious glitch.

If you want to use it, go for it. If you think it's an intended and tactic, then I'm not going to change your mind.

But rest assured people you use it against will be talking about that guy who uses conga lines.

Wound allocation is a central concept to 8th edition Warhammer Fantasy. I don't understand how this is a "glitch."

And for crying out loud, this tactic is largely used to deal with brokenly powerful characters that could be called "glitches" themselves. Those same people that call you "that guy" are probably going to complain about your Spirit Host holding up their 300 point unit or your Terrorgheists screaming into combats. None of these emotional issues happen if you just play the rules as they are written (which obviously includes errata and FAQs) and just accept that some interactions in the game are very powerful.