So what good are Vargheists?

[Kromathus]

I agree with everything that had been said. I do not think gw "intentionally" created the rule allowing conga lining. However I do not think they intentionally allowed the abuse of wound allocation either. Okay no other army might have frenzied flying monstrous infantry, however, there are other units that benefit it.

What about the gut lord unit? Ogre tyrant/butcher, bsb and unit champ with All the bulls/iron guts?

How about single rank Brett lords with 1 + rerollable armour save, 4+ ward with heroic killing blow?

Have you ever been out dropped by an ogre player who gets his gut lord in btb? He eats one unit, reforms, flank charge, eat, repeat. Atleast varghiests are dead after a turn of Mage fisting.

Truth is, it is an exploit. However ours is extremely situational and made of glass. Yea cool, I just sniped your lvl 4 Mage... Unless your chaos... Or an ogre... Or skaven... Or a slann Mage... Or smart enough to block/redirect my frenzied unit that's 20+ inches from my general.

I personally don't do it, but I wouldn't get all tied up if it was used against me either. Everyone here is getting all butt hurt over a difference in opinion. At the end of the day does it even matter?

 

[Skittelz1981]

Ofc it matters if some people see it as cheating. Or just not allowed... that creates a problem during a game.

If i want to setup my Vargs in a congaline because it suits my movement better for terrain use/line of sight why should i not be able to do that? Especially since theyre skirmishers.
If it then so happens that theyre congalined and charge on the next turn (wether you want it or not) then they get in cc the way they were setup at the charge... in a congaline, well thats just too bad for my opponent, hes facing a champion so the hits dont get through. At least it shield the unit abit on the first turn.

I say GW knew what they were doing here and congalined monstrous infantry are simply the way they are.
Now they might change it in 9th, but thats another discussion altogether.

 

[Blutsauger]

well then... obviously as intended or just plain bad writing.
if it was the latter, an errata or faq wouldve come out. this has not happened, therefore we can conclude that this is not an exploit but simply how the 8th edition is intended and that:

1 - congaline is allowed and valid.
2 - a champion in a congaline blocks attacks towards the unit and that is just simply how it works.

If you find it bad sport, glitchy, unethical or whatever reason you try to come up with not to do it. Then you are just making up your own rules.

Same as somekind of ETC-rule stating that you cannot take Red Fury with Quickblood.....

It's not a rule that you can't congaline. Of course it isn't. It works how it works, and we just have to find ways to deal with it.

But it's very bad manners.

 

[Skittelz1981]

i disagree on the bad manners part.
It simply is what it is.
I find ASF+high initiative+high leadership+high weaponskill armywide bad manners, yet unfortunately i have to play against it.

 

[Blutsauger]

i disagree on the bad manners part.
It simply is what it is.
I find ASF+high initiative+high leadership+high weaponskill armywide bad manners, yet unfortunately i have to play against it.

lol :tongue:

 

[RarerMonsters]

i disagree on the bad manners part.
It simply is what it is.
I find ASF+high initiative+high leadership+high weaponskill armywide bad manners, yet unfortunately i have to play against it.

It is kind of hilarious to me how many players who insist that comp is necessary to the game and provides an important balance to the game have ZERO problem with conga lining and get defensive when people point out it's an exploit.

 

[Swoosh]

Well, since there's no errata or FAQ on it, isn't that a hint that GW is cool with it? Even though it might not have been their intention to begin with (who knows) it sorta works out?

I mean...it's not like it makes VC faceroll. Not FAQ'ing is maybe just a means of adding more balance?

 

[Skittelz1981]

How can there be a problem with congalining?
-Its really hard to maneuver
-its often a bad setup for the player himself (no rank bonus)
-its simply a legal setup of a unit (i really really dont see how setting up a skirmisher/flyer in a congaline can even be pointed out as unfair, theyre like fast cavalry. Actually any unit in the game can congaline for all i care)
-It has not been FAQ/errata
-the use of it is extremely limited, except for my Vargheists and a few other units in armies that can benefit from it its not a really common happening. Its not like congalining is somekind of black plague that ravages the entire game.
-Apparently this is how GW wants it, so its not illegal (on the contrary), its not cheating, its not an exploit. its RAW without trying to find a loophole, its RAW and functions as intended.


Like i said, you cannot claim that setting up 3 Vargheists in a congaline is something that is a glitch. Simply because its not. If it then so happens that my Vargheists charge in a consecutive turn there is nothing you can do about their formation. If theyre led by a champion then the Champion rules come into play.... what can you do, RAW and functions as intended.
Sometimes VC might benefit, sometimes other armies can benefit from that same ruling. Its not unbalanced, its not unfair.

Like i said before, they might change it in 9th ed but that is not relevant.

Im not claiming to know all about it and some people have better knowledge and insight about the rules etc. but this seems pretty clear cut.

 

[Carpe Jugulum]

I'm kinda tickled that this argument is still raging. I drop in on this thread every now and again - each time convinced it must finally be over. But no - Still going strong!

Oh, and Skittelz - Your argument seems to boil down to an assertion that RAW = RAI, and since Conga = RAW it must also be RAI. Strictly speaking, it's not the best argument. We get it - it's RAW. The rules are clear cut. That doesn't make it sporting, or any less of a glitch.

That said, I don't think it's the biggest glitch in the world. And fantasy's rules are in a waaaaaaaaaay better place than 40k's right now. So we should probably be grateful.

 

[Skittelz1981]

Well i clearly understand your point but not your point of view :lol:

You are under the assumption that this RAW is not RAI, so thats the same one-sided and predetermined mindstate. You refuse to acknowledge that this is RAI, thus it must be a glitch/loophole/bad sport to do it.
What if Matt Ward and his cowriters were fully aware of it and RAI'd this RAW... thus also explaining the fact that they didnt faq this obviously much-discussed argument.

If this RAW=RAI then its your own made-up rule not to do it and maybe disallowing others to do as well.
Thus i feel its completely understandable that this is an ongoing topic.
If the topic is changed to what to we think should change since it feels like a lack/crack in the rules, thats another story.
Since its RAW and possibly RAI my opinion is that its a legal move/situation thus cannot be frowned upon.

The Vargheist situation is not even that bad, congalining goblins backwards in a reform to release fanatics, thats sum tricky-ass situation happening

 

[Carpe Jugulum]

Right - that's what I'm saying. In the absence of a FAQ, the issue of RAW vs RAI comes down to personal judgement. People feel differently about it, and will go on feeling differently about it - because it's a matter of personal interpretation.

:| Your goblin example is hilarious. I think it kinda supports my point about conga line glitchiness, but it's such a bald face beardy use of the rule-set I salute it just for its audaciousness. I can just see all the little blighters lining up.

*Oi, whys we facing backwards?*
*Shuttup! Jus do wat da boss says*

 

[Skittelz1981]

Ofc it supports your PoV, but when it comes down to allowing it for others in a game and using it yourself, i feel that its completely legal. Whatever the ludicrous result may happen to be but 9/10 really unlikely to happen at all.


What i really want to know is what exactly is the problem? Vargheists as example
-the ruling that you can reform your unit to any setup that you deem necessary? including the 1man-rank that results in congaline
-the fact that this unit is a flying/skirmish montr inf?
-the ruling that a command group must always take front rank, if no room 2nd etc, in the case of Gheists they only have a champ so he gets solo upfront?
-the ruling for champions with allocation of attacks and dispersing extra attacks to the unit?
-the combination of rules that results in previously mentioned possible situations amongst others

 

[Carpe Jugulum]

It's that last one. I personally find it cheesy. I think it's an unintended byproduct of several other rules converging (The ones you mentioned - quick reforms for skirmishers - champion wound allocation, etc.).

It's not against the rules - and I'm not going to have a hissy fit about it or anything. The Vargheist example is actually far less abusive than some other possibilities as you also pointed out. I wouldn't refuse to play against someone using it, but I would probably roll my eyes at them. Then smile, play on, and do my best to chuck a winds of death at the congaline.

 

[Kromathus]

How can there be a problem with congalining?
-Its really hard to maneuver
-its often a bad setup for the player himself (no rank bonus)
-its simply a legal setup of a unit (i really really dont see how setting up a skirmisher/flyer in a congaline can even be pointed out as unfair, theyre like fast cavalry. Actually any unit in the game can congaline for all i care)
-It has not been FAQ/errata
-the use of it is extremely limited, except for my Vargheists and a few other units in armies that can benefit from it its not a really common happening. Its not like congalining is somekind of black plague that ravages the entire game.
-Apparently this is how GW wants it, so its not illegal (on the contrary), its not cheating, its not an exploit. its RAW without trying to find a loophole, its RAW and functions as intended.


Like i said, you cannot claim that setting up 3 Vargheists in a congaline is something that is a glitch. Simply because its not. If it then so happens that my Vargheists charge in a consecutive turn there is nothing you can do about their formation. If theyre led by a champion then the Champion rules come into play.... what can you do, RAW and functions as intended.
Sometimes VC might benefit, sometimes other armies can benefit from that same ruling. Its not unbalanced, its not unfair.

Like i said before, they might change it in 9th ed but that is not relevant.

Im not claiming to know all about it and some people have better knowledge and insight about the rules etc. but this seems pretty clear cut.

1) varghiests get to free reform. This makes them incredibly maneuverable

2) skirmishers don't get rank bonus'

3)the point isn't that any unit can do it. Not many units can accel at it like varghiests.

4) ... Your right because historically gw has been all over FAQs... Check out the unstable facts and tell me they don't 180

This is nothing but a flame thread and it's a joke it's been allowed to go on this long. It's legal. It's an unintentional loophole. Who cares? If you wanted a perfect rules set you would play chess.

 

[Skittelz1981]

tbh i find the Vargheists to be only minimally boosted by this.
Nothing to be upset about and btw, in the case of gheists it makes absolute sense to me this is how it should be, they are the example of how the combination of rulesets work. Its actually quite marvellous though the benefits of it are still not jaw-dropping or gamewrecking at all. It even ads flavour to the Gheists.

 

[Minam]

I admire you BLUTSAUGER, the way you defend your point of view. I agree with what you said but it depends on you. Either you prefer to win over all either you like fair play, fun and roll play.
Personally I will not play like that because I like the following statement : Triumph without peril brings no glory
"Le Cid", Corneille 1637 (or maybe someone else)

I hope I will encounter many opponents like you Blutsauger.

 

[HugoMac]

The problem starts with seeing a loophole in a thing that is NOT a loophole. Is a perfectly described and clear (and this, talking about GW and their "brilliant" rules writing, should be veeery significant) rule. There is no doubt, no strange wording, it is absolutely precise and undoubtful.

And thus, fully legal.

 

[Ripper]

I've had success running mine with my general on hellsteed sticking near enough to boost their Ld. Toughness 4/3 wounds is nothing to sneeze at and their damage output is absurd.