the Pros and cons of each Bloodline

[Ghouly]

Nagash wasn't a Vampire, he was the first Necromancer.
and a Necrarch would turn any vampire's undead against them, but nobody is taking Ghouls or Crypt Horrors away from a Strigoi, I'm not sure where your getting the puppet thing from, but Necrarchs are the bottom of the pile when it comes to physicality, their brains not brawn

 

[Aren]

Most vampires are necromancers. Necromancer just means someone who practices necromancy. And nagash created the "elixir" and he himself drank from it to gain eternal life, ergo he must be a vampire.

And I think necrachs could just go like orikan and magically augment themselves to be beasts in combat.

As for the puppet, strigoi have a weak mind, one that can be easily controlled and enthralled.

 

[Shareya]

The elixir he had was different from the one that spawned Neferata who then went on to make the other vampires.So nop, Nagash was not a vampire.

Also I am fairly sure that Strigoi's mind is protected by madness/savagery so you might be able to influence it to a low degree but not get him to be your personal, behaved pet.

Anddd, no they can't. Of course a Necrah is superior physically to most humans (for example) but when facing vampires they will be weaker and won't be wasting time to cast spells that will make them punch harder. That is after all their trademark weakness.

 

[Ghouly]

Nagash is not a Vampire, the elixir he made was different then neferita's

I don't know what orikan is, but I think I get the idea, your thinking like bear's anger, hand of dust and all that jazz, that's not what the Necrachs are about their about being smart not brawny, any Necrach that finds themselves in close combat with a Blood Dragon or a Strigoi has screwed up badly.

and Vampires are only enthralled by their sire, and that's only until they mature, being insane does not equal weak will otherwise the Necrachs would be in the exact same boat

:slapface: gah ninja

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Ghouly - your arguments are all too much biased with the Strigoi in favour. I certainly agree that they are potent in many aspects. Certainly compared to any other vampire of equal age they are physically stronger and innately tougher. However that does not translate into being as skilled or moreso in combat than Blood Dragons.

As anyone who know about martial arts will tell you, combat is largely biased towards the skill level involved. In fact being too muscular can actually be a hinderance when it comes to speed and agility.

If it came to a fight between a Blood Dragon and a Strigoi of equal age, my money would always be on the Blood Dragon. He may not be a physically strong, but he would have a lot more skill to call upon, which would most likely include the skill to use his opponents strength and aggression against him.

As for the other bloodlines, I would actually say the other bloodline that whilst perhaps not equal, may pose a problem in combat is a Lahmian. Purely down to speed in this case, I think there is no argument that the Lahmians are by far the fastest, and combined with their intelligence I would imagine it would be hard to pin them down (though I imagine Blood Dragons skill in this area ay counter this). That said the resistance and brute force of the Strigoi would make it an effective stalemate

Also Nagash was not vampire. His original elixir produced an immortal that was not a vampire, although similar in some respects. It is interesting to note that only those subservient to seemed to crave the elixir, indeed he survived without it when he should of died. I personally think he purposely made the elixir addictive for his followers to keep them under control.

Vampirism was created when Neferata tried to recreate the elixir from Nagash's notes and messed it up somehow. The result caused the drinkers to become vampires, although as seen from the various fluff references, the effectives seem to vary based on the drinkers personality and physical traits.

 

[kevin.hopkins7]

That's two separate elixirs.. Nagash was not a vampire. The vampire elixer came about trying to recreate his elixir and was used on the poisoned nefereta, creating the first vampire.(this part is probably controversial with GW changing their fluff)

You could be correct in magically augmenting themselves to be beasts in combat, but typically necromancers rely on their minions and not themselves to fight.

Also on the blood dragon part.. He would probably dismount (if possible) to fight the strigoi, It's dishonorable to fight an unmounted enemy while mounted. If the strigoi is on a terrorghiest though.. Skewer away! (In the middle of a battle with a charging lance of knights though, he would probably still use the lance, just not in single combat, like the strigois lair or a duel {dread knight after all}).

Edit: agh triple ninja'd!

 

[Ghouly]

strigoi vs. Dragon fight one on one is 50/50 that's always been my argument, a Strigoi holds all the cards physically, their faster, stronger, and tougher and more aggressive when cornered, The Dragon however is to stubborn to quite

 

[Shareya]

Stubborn and that is it..? A blood dragon while honor bound would still plan his fight with the Strigoi well and use superior tactics and probably knowledge to his advantage.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

No I am sorry Ghouly but you are overestimating the Strigoi combat ability without justification. They are stronger and tougher, yes the fluff supports this.

However Blood Dragons are not just slightly more skilled, they are a lot more skilled in combat, to the point where Blood Dragons are regarded as some of the best warriors in the world, Abhorash possibly being the best.

There is also nothing to show that Strigoi are faster than Blood Dragons, in fact looking at their physiology it is very likely to be the other way around. The Blood Dragon will have less bulk, and remember martial training is not just skills, but honing reflexes.

Finally when you look at the factors that go into a fight, skill by far outweighs strength. Skill not only allows you to strike in more effective spots, counter your foe, but in itself it can make your blows in power in equal or excess of those stronger than them.

To use a comparison, take a muscled up wrestler and someone highly trained in martial arts with much less bulk and have their punching power compared. In nearly all cases the martial artist will have much more power due to correct technique.

You need to accept that Strigoi are certainly the strongest and toughest vampires - something which should be enough anyway. However when it comes down to it, they are second place to Blood Dragons in combat, which it still higher than the other bloodlines.

 

[Aren]

DoN, you have been assuming that a vampire's strength comes from muscle. Strigoi are much more brawny but as is evident from the lore vampires do not need muscle to hit hard. A larger vampire does not mean a stronger one.

Vampires are human size and so their strength simply cannot come from muscle, otherwise they would be as strong as humans only, not like monsters. I think in this case it is safe to assume that a vampire's strength and speed are determined by age and willpower. Their lungs do not work and they are basically decaying corpses (the decay is stopped and/or slowed by drinking blood) so an old vampire lord could have nearly no muscle yet be able to shift a bus with one hand.

Therefore if a strigoi has more muscle it doesn't mean that he is slower. Again, normal rules of physics don't seem to apply to vampires. (we can easily assume that most any vampire can lift say a car. The leverage and power would simply not work in the real world so vampires cannot follow rules of physics) and so even being bigger, brawnier or having next to no muscle, a vampire can still be ridiculously fast as its strength does not come from the body it inhibits. So a strigoi may indeed be as fast as a blood dragon. The argument for it is clear and logical enough.

Now, you would be happy to assume that a necrarch can turn himself into a dragon or something by magic. Yes? If no then say why not. But if it can do so then why not turn itself into something the power of a ctan shard? Their magic is superior to any of the other vampires and so if that is true and necrarchs enjoy experiments they could ridiculously increase their speed, strength and toughness. While still having basically no training and no technique a necrarch would have enough power to flatten cities. Now it would take a blood dragon to bring something of that power down but the argument is there that a necrarch may well beat a lahmian or VC in combat. I don't generally hear of Lahmians taking down dragons, let alone more powerful things.

And I stand corrected on the case of Nagash. I read the lore wrong. So vampires are imperfect forms of what Nagash is? Also pure speculation this but maybe she screwed up the elixir by not adding dragon blood? After all that seems to be the one thing which cures the curse so maybe that was the "missing ingredient" ?

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I think there is a correlation between muscle mass and strength for Strigoi. They are stated in all fluff as being physically stronger, and all the artwork and modes represents this by showing Strigoi being larger and muscular.

Apart from that, I still stand that the many hours put in combat training for the Blood Dragons will have likely honed their reflexes and response times.

As far as I am concerned it has always been clear cut that he Blood Dragons are the best out of the Bloodlines for combat. It is effectively their "thing", in the same way the Strigoi's was strength and resilience, and the Necrach's was magic.

In regard's to Nagash's elixir, its an interesting point. Sadly there is next to no info on the elixir, other than it contained human blood (likely the reason for the vampires need to feed). It could very well be that dragon's blood was the missing component, but then it could be entirely unrelated.

 

[Shareya]

The elixir is expanded on a tiny bit in the third Nagash book, through granted not really enough.

I also agree that in the end Blood Dragons are the best when it comes to actual combat.

 

[Ghouly]

I screwed up on what I was trying to say with the Blood Dragon, a Strigoi has all the physical advantages but you can hurt it enough to make it want to run away. Strigoi can be afraid and can be hurt, a Blood Dragon on the other hand cannot,he will feel the pain he'll just ignore it, and keep fighting, unless you decapitate him or pierce his heart a Blood Dragon will keep fighting. that's why its fifty fifty its the unstoppable force meets the immovable object.

 

[Irisado]

I'm in agreement with DoN about the prowess of Blood Dragon Vampires. In terms of swordsmanship, and actual close combat skill, they trump all other vampires. Their main weakness is, in a way, their own self-confidence/arrogance, as there's no way that they would refuse to fight, or make a tactical withdrawal, as to retreat would be against their code of honour, certainly by my understanding of their psyche at any rate.

Earlier in the thread, there was an amusing comment about horses not being able to negotiate gravestones. Considering that skeletal steeds are ethereal, and other undead steeds could probably evade, or jump, in ways which are impossible for living steeds, I really don't think that physical barriers like that would pose much of a problem.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Ghouly I still don't think you get what I am saying.

The Strigoi has the physical advantage. Yes I agree, they are stronger. However to clarify on this, the difference in strength looks to be the same as between a normal man and a body builder, not the vast difference between a man and a vampire.

Secondly this physical advantage does not equate to 50% or make him equal. If we break down the likely areas (and I am extrapolating here somewhat):


Brute Strength: Strigoi win, no question.
Combat Skill: Blood Dragon win, no question.
Reflexes: Likely Blood Dragon, as he actually spends time honing these.
Damage to targets: Again, likely Blood Dragon as he not only has the technique to correctly apply the blow (which martial arts generally has proven exceeds the power of blows of stronger, less skilled people), but he also has the training to target the weakest spot on his opponent.


It is not a case of equal forces countering each other. It is a stronger, generally enraged animalistic vampire attacking another vampire who has spend his whole undead life training in combat against every foe including beasts he can find.

I am really not sure why there is this need to prove Strigoi are as good as Blood Dragons in combat. Strigoi are good at other things, GW wrote their fluff in such a way to give each Bloodline particular strengths and weaknesses. If you want a tank character, Strigoi are the way to go. If you want a supremely skilled warrior, Blood Dragons are.

I do agree with Irisado to some extent. I don't believe Blood Dragons will slink away like cowards or run, however the latter iterations of Blood Dragons have shown then to be a frenzied when they are not (stupid Blood Knight rules). I think if it was part of an overall tactical plan than the Blood Dragon may do a tactical retreat, as it would not be a sign of weakness, but a feint etc.

 

[Irisado]

There's a story of a Blood Dragon agreeing to spare his opponent because his skill was equal to that of the Blood Dragon, or had demonstrated sufficient honour to be spared. Something along those lines anyway. This supports, albeit somewhat indirectly, what you're saying about Blood Dragons DoN. They certainly are not frenzied automaton killers.

I can't remember which army book this is from, but it's from one of them. Probably from when the old blood lines were still represented by the rules

 

[Aren]

That is every VC armybook under the blood knight entry.

DoN - I agree with everything you said about strigoi and BD. Which bloodline is your favourite? Mine is necrarch, Shereya's is Lahmian and I guess ghouly's is strigoi but I can't remember reading anywhere what your favourite is.

Ghouly- Blood Dragon beats a strigoi in combat 8 times out of 10 but the strigoi has some definite advantages. For example, if a BD is mobbed (by about 400 enemies) he will not win (I am talking about a massive pile on thing with everyone just chucking themselves on the vampire, martial training goes out of the window then) and will get crushed, maybe even destroyed. Strigoi on the other hand are so bestial and strong that even if they are piled on they will slaughter their way through. It will be like in the matrix when angent smith tries a pile on on neo and he just goes fus ro dah.

In a mob fight strigoi wins hands down, blood dragon has problems though.

I like Necrarchs most but if I was to be a vampire I would rather choose vonC. They are second best at magic, third best in combat, can look like a beautiful human (not as much as a lahmian but hey) and can turn into animals. What more do you want?

GW should bring back the bloodlines again and have also non vonC named characters. There were some named ones in the last VC book, just use those.

 

[Get of W'soran]

I'm with DoN on this.

Just out of personal experience, with a Longsword, neither speed nor strength is the most important thing but a combination of the two with a heavy helping of skill.

A sufficiently trained Blood Dragon could take down a Strigoi of equal age and generation although I'd say that a young Blood Dragon vs a young Strigoi would have the strigoi come out on top simply because the Blood Dragon wouldn't be experienced enough to take out the vastly stronger opponent.

Then after x amount of years the Blood Dragon would gain uber swordsmanship and so be skilful enough to slaughter the Strigoi.

Of course the Blood Dragon has advantages like using horse and lance before closing the distance.

 

[Ghouly]

I'm just saying the fight would be way closer then your all saying yes I agree the Dragon is the safe bet to win but he would be all but shitting his pants the entire fight and wouldn't walk away from it he would crawl away

 

[Blutsauger]

As I've already said, I disagree with the idea of pigeon-holing vampires into specific bloodlines.

However, I think a sufficiently armed, trained and experienced vampire would kill a ghoul king nine times out of ten. It'd be like pitting a lightweight against a heavyweight, except the lightweight is wearing body armour and has a sword.

Vampirism was created when Neferata tried to recreate the elixir from Nagash's notes and messed it up somehow. The result caused the drinkers to become vampires, although as seen from the various fluff references, the effectives seem to vary based on the drinkers personality and physical traits.

Well, Neferata actually recreated the elixir near perfectly. However, the last batch she drank was laced with Sphinx poison, which effectively killed her. Arkhan the Black then attempted to resurrect her, and somehow turned her into a vampire. Neferata then systematically fed the rest of her cabal the poison/elixir mix, and repeated the 'resurrection' process and converted them to Vampires.

 

[Aren]

So in that sense, is dragon blood the antidote for sphinx poison? It would make sense with abhorash and so on. Also, why don't more vampires do what he did? They wouldn't have to kill the dragon themselves, they could have their army take it down for them and then feast on it.

 

[Ghouly]

So in that sense, is dragon blood the antidote for sphinx poison? It would make sense with abhorash and so on. Also, why don't more vampires do what he did? They wouldn't have to kill the dragon themselves, they could have their army take it down for them and then feast on it.

because Dragons are rare as hell, there more Vampires then there are Dragons in the world plus most Vampires like drinking blood

 

[Shareya]

And again! We do not have enough information on even on the dragon mr Blood Knight killed. Might have been special in some strange way but like pointed out beforeeeeee! Old vampires do not drink blood often. The dragons blood might have been potent enough to remove the thirst for thousands of years.

Neferata's resurrection was interesting as I believe it involved draining and replacing her blood and the usual magic mumbo jumbo. I will quote it all once i am at home and... and remember it at least finding that part in the story is easy.

 

[Lynks]

So in that sense, is dragon blood the antidote for sphinx poison? It would make sense with abhorash and so on. Also, why don't more vampires do what he did? They wouldn't have to kill the dragon themselves, they could have their army take it down for them and then feast on it.

because Dragons are rare as hell, there more Vampires then there are Dragons in the world plus most Vampires like drinking blood

I also think it's mentioned somewhere that he drank ALL the blood of the dragon (over a period of time) in order to get the benefit, not just a little sip.

Zacharias the everling also did the same thing

 

[Ghouly]

the Dragon Blood did more then take away his thirst, he can walk around in daylight and not burn up