Undead legion question

[LordTobiothan]

I actually understand that argument and what everyone is hung up on, I didn't know if you saw something further or could add to it. Also, I don't feel ignored, we are totally cool. Also, any all caps below is just be emphasizing words or points, not yelling.

So, here is where I am saying RAW does say use the army book in its entirety:

1) Undead legions came second, so the text in VC and TK can't be written to refer outside of their army books or to the undead legions because combining army books wasn't occurring before hand. So of course rules like the chariots and magic items are going to self reference their own book.

2) Undead Legions does no re-labeling of books or rules or itself outside of Army Special Rules. It only says disregard the original books Army Special Rules and use these ones. So, still no precedence for anything the other side is saying.

3) Then when we get to pg 20. it clearly states:

"you must use the unit profiles, point costs, equipment, options and special rules found in either Warhammer: Vampire Counts (denoted by ´VC´) or Warhammer: Tomb Kings (denoted by ´TK´)"

Look at how specific and clear GW is being here. profiles, cost, equipment, OPTIONS and special rules. OPTIONS is magic items (among other things). It says FOUND in EITHER Vampire Counts or Tomb Kings denoted by VC or TK.

That means, you go to the profile in Vampire Counts. You use everything listed there to build him. Nothing there is prohibiting anything. So FOUND in Warhammer: Vampire Counts means use the Army Book to build him. The Either/or and Denoted means a unit pulls its options and profiles from Vampire Counts or Tomb Kings. The list is marked with VC and TK next to the units. It is telling you to use the Army Book for that unit.

So, I build a Vampire Lord. I got to his profile and use Warhammer: Vampire Counts to build him. As the Nagash book says. Options FOUND in Warhammer Armies Vampire Counts are their Magic Items!

Or the chariot situation. I build a Skeleton Chariot unit and a Tomb King on a chariot. They can use the options/rules/etc FOUND in Warhammer Tomb Kings. They are denoted as TK units in the Nagash book. The Chariot special rule says characters from the Tomb King book on a chariot can join them. That is what the Tomb King on a chariot is.

Again, the RAW is:"you must use the unit profiles, point costs, equipment, options and special rules found in either Warhammer: Vampire Counts (denoted by ´VC´) or Warhammer: Tomb Kings (denoted by ´TK´)"

Nothing about ignoring parts of the book or that rules stop working or Vampires on Coven thrones being able to join Chariot units.

See this is what is blowing my mind. The RAW is clear as day that you use the army book in its entirety. The only part that gets ignored is the Army Special Rules because they stated that and gave you replacement rules. But here, in the unit building, they say use the army book. Period.

So, I really don't get it. What's even weirder is I've heard multiple arguments as to why people think its this other weird way. Everything from them not specifically stating Undead Legion armies can to the opposite and saying well it doesn't say they can't. And my whole point this entire time, it doesn't say that about any of those things. It says exactly what I have quoted and spelled out.

What's even more bizarre to me though. RAI. Which is more likely, honestly. GW wanting the units to function as they did in the original army book and they are just gathered together under the Undead Legion combined list now or this weird argument where they don;t have magic items and chariot units? If someone builds a TK army (no special characters that died) and they have royals in every chariot unit. Then they take that same army and convert it to Undead Legion, and now it plays differently. Or you got that Vampire Army with Screaming Banner and Book of Arkhan and Black Periapt, then you convert it to Undead Legion and you don;t get those Vampire themed items even though you have a Vampire themed undead legion army with all the vampire powers, spells, unit options etc. What sense is there in that?

Even further. How does allowing army magic items hurt anything? Those items are meant to work with those armies. They fit the same roll as Daemonic Gifts, Vampiric Powers, Chaos Mutations, etc. You pay points for them. Its not like your getting them for free. They make the army function properly. The army was built with using those items in mind. Why all of the sudden would the items disappear?

One more step, fluff wise. These armies are conquered and united under Nagash. Why would their magic items go away or cease to function? And if that was what GW intended... then why is there NO MENTION OF IT ANYWHERE.

So, there is another factor here. Aside from the very obvious RAI and that the RAW supports what my position is and has no verbiage whatsoever that supports the contrary (last I checked, Warhammer doesn't work on what isn't written or how people want to interpret unwritten rules but what is specifically written), but common sense supports my position. The most likely scenario is that the magic item are available. GWs track record supports this.

You can even hop over to Legions of Chaos to reinforce this. Its written the same way. It specifically mentions Daemonic Gifts, how they function and that they are like the magic items for the daemons. It states that they are chosen like magic items and makes no mention of anything weird like, unlike Warriors of Chaos and Beastmen who don't get their army book magic items, Daemons get their daemonic gifts. Why if magic items are so over powered to allow in the army that GW checked them with game mechanics to block them out but allowed daemonic gifts or doesn't make any mention of no army book magic items?

So, what has us on this side of things frustrated is we are playing by RAW. We read those rules and in doing what it says step by step it let's us use magic items from the army book on the units from the same book. We are then getting into these super threads that are taking over every Warhammer forum with arguments that are adding or ignoring very clear text GW wrote. This feels to us like we are in some sort of crazy world.

So, I hope that clears up what ever hang up there is. At this point we could be going around and around. I don't understand why players such as yourself and groups like Warhammer.org and Adepticon are not on the same page. I really don't. This is WAY more clear that the 50% Lords and Heroes thing being officially was, at least IMHO.

Peace and sorry for the length, we are still cool though

I believe the difference is in the way we are reading it. You read: use the units cost, options etc. (hereby known as "stuff" for simplicity), found in "warhammer armies: X"

I read: use these units, these units and their "stuff" can be found in "warhammer armies X"

So RAW wise I see it pointing to the units and what is available to specifically their entries as it only asks that you look at those entries, you see it pointing to the entirety of the books themselves.

As far as fluff is concerned what makes most sense is letting them share everything. I doubt Nagash gives a damn which side claims an artifact, he'd much rather it be given to who can use it best. If a group of tomb king chariots only magic support is a nerco on a cart, the logical move is close in around him for protection and support. Especially seeing as he just raised your buddy back from the dead and made your bones move like lightning when he did it.

 

[najo]

I believe the difference is in the way we are reading it. You read: use the units cost, options etc. (hereby known as "stuff" for simplicity), found in "warhammer armies: X"

I read: use these units, these units and their "stuff" can be found in "warhammer armies X"

So RAW wise I see it pointing to the units and what is available to specifically their entries as it only asks that you look at those entries, you see it pointing to the entirety of the books themselves.

Ironically, RAW players usually attempt to do something because the rules doesn't say they can't. Its like how some vampire players were claiming that Hexwraiths could heal level+1 in wounds because Invocation used the term model and when they clarified in the FAQ they only used vampires in the example, so of course to them Ethereals didn't count (of course this was clarified even further in Undead Legions, and most of us thought Ethereals were 1 wound per casting anyways).

But in this case, the RAW doesn't specify only entries nor does it preclude magic items in any way. There is no limit on that sentence. it says found in Warhammer: Vampire Counts etc.

So, a true RAW player can claim that options includes army book magic items and rules are pointing at more than just entry. Whereas your position requires taking a RAI point of view to see it how you want to see it. There is no game mechanics in pg. 20 taking Magic Items away or only restricting the unit to its entry in the army list. If I take Vampire Count magic items on a character denoted VC, I'm not violating any of the rules stated in Nagash.

 

[LordTobiothan]

Ironically, RAW players usually attempt to do something because the rules doesn't say they can't. Its like how some vampire players were claiming that Hexwraiths could heal level+1 in wounds because Invocation used the term model and when they clarified in the FAQ they only used vampires in the example, so of course to them Ethereals didn't count (of course this was clarified even further in Undead Legions, and most of us thought Ethereals were 1 wound per casting anyways).

But in this case, the RAW doesn't specify only entries nor does it preclude magic items in any way. There is no limit on that sentence. it says found in Warhammer: Vampire Counts etc.

So, a true RAW player can claim that options includes army book magic items and rules are pointing at more than just entry. Whereas your position requires taking a RAI point of view to see it how you want to see it. There is no game mechanics in pg. 20 taking Magic Items away or only restricting the unit to its entry in the army list. If I take Vampire Count magic items on a character denoted VC, I'm not violating any of the rules stated in Nagash.

Doesn't the Nagash book mention nothing but the units from each book? I don't believe it tells you to use anything but the unit, in which case "stuff" for a particular unit is only found in its unit entry. Going outside of the entry is using things it hasn't explicitly told you you can use, which brings me back to the bloodthirster example on why warhammer rules work with inclusion and not exclusion.

 

[najo]

The Nagash and Glottkin books do not specifically say entry, they just use the term unit(s). They make mention of special rules which would then refer from the army list entry back to the bestiary. In the same vein, options refer to all the options as nothing specifies that options is limited to just the entry or only the Warhammer Rulebook.

But even still, because it says 'found in Warhammer Vampire Counts' it allows the unit to utilize the Army Book for its options and rules. There is no preclusion. Its giving you permission to use the whole army book aside from the part it said you couldn't, which is the Army Special Rules and any units not listed in the unit list.

 

[LordTobiothan]

The Nagash and Glottkin books do not specifically say entry, they just use the term unit(s). They make mention of special rules which would then refer from the army list entry back to the bestiary. In the same vein, options refer to all the options as nothing specifies that options is limited to just the entry or only the Warhammer Rulebook.

entry is not a term in the warhammer rules, I'm using it to refer to everything that comes after the name of a unit up until another units name. Options only refer to the units options, and as already stated a unit begins when the units name is used and ends when the next name begins (or the next section in the case of the last unit).

You even mention that special rules refer to the special rules in the units entries in the bestiary, yet then state options mean more then just the units entry. Which seems inconsistent.

But even still, because it says 'found in Warhammer Vampire Counts' it allows the unit to utilize the Army Book for its options and rules. There is no preclusion. Its giving you permission to use the whole army book aside from the part it said you couldn't, which is the Army Special Rules and any units not listed in the unit list.

Pointing you to the units rules doesn't state everything in the same few hundred pages of that units small section of rules is fair game. It only states that the small passage you're looking for (that unit), is in there, and to use that passage (the units), when taking said unit.

Edit: not to mention having access to the whole book still doesn't make your army a vampire counts army, which is the stipulation of using the items in said book.

 

[najo]

Still, there is a very fine line and regardless, RAW doesn't preclude army book magic items as the listing allows magic items up to a certain point value to be taken for that unit as found in VC. It doesn't need to state their allowance any more than how it already does because stateing options as found in VC is inclusive of the army book and it's own magic items.

 

[estwheadn]

Direct quote from the designer's note: "the term 'undead legions army' refers to a combine force chosen from the aforementioned army books".

And there you have it. An undead legion army is both a tomb kings army and a vampire counts army.

 

[GhoulKing505]

@LordTobiothan not quite sure how you just shrugged off my argument against wizards in an UL army so easily. I was using your method of RAW when I saw it. If magic items aren't allowed than only lvl 3 vampire lords are allowed and any wizaed can only take lore of undeath.
You are arguing that the book tells you specifically to you use only certain parts of the army books. I that is true than we look at what they do allow us to use. The Magic section is not in the list they give us. You argue back that wizards in those books inherently can take certain lores no matter what. We are arguing that characters in the books can inherently take certain magic items. I get the whole "VC army only" business but you've just created a double standard. It does not say that we use that part of their entries in an UL army so we can't. If that's not true then we can take magic items from our books because it's practically the same argument saying why we can.

If UL wizards are only allowed to take lore of undeath then I really don't see them being played much. Unless you are using Nagash the original books are just better.

 

[estwheadn]

Actually magic would be included in 'options' since it is an option on his unit entry. I understand the argument now that the opposition is using and I believe my above post shows that undead legions are both tomb king and vampire counts armies and therefore when it says "these magic items are for vc armies" or whatever it does not disallow undead legion characters from using army book magic items.

 

[GhoulKing505]

Under options it allows a vamp lord to buy three magic lvls. Therefore in order to be a wizard he would have to buy that option. He doesn't start off lvl 1 in an UL army. A master necro is able to go from not being a wizard to being a lvl 4 wizard. And since under the "Options:" header it doesn't state what lore they can take they have to take lore of undeath since all wizards can take that and that is their only choice at that point. That's what I'm saying. "Magic:" is it's own header but isn't in the list of things they give us to use so we can't use it.
I don't actually believe this to be at all RAI but rather am using it as an argument to support the use of army book magic items.

 

[estwheadn]

I guess that makes sense in a purely RAW dickish rules lawyer kind of way

 

[GhoulKing505]

Exactly my point. It should most certainly not be played that way but if people want to disallow army book magic items then they must follow this rule as well or their entire argument becomes invalid.

 

[Veritas]

This is my RAW take on it, and why we're allowing things as is appropriate for our Adepticon event.

In every army book, there exists terminology that says the units, items, and certain special rules are only available in [x] army:


Tomb Kings

- Each and every troop type in the Tomb Kings army is examined here. You will find a full description of each unit, alongside complete rules of any special abilities or options they possess. [p.3]

- In this section, you will find details for all the different troops, heroes, monsters and war machines used in a Tomb Kings army. It provides the descriptions, imagery, characteristics profiles and special rules necessary to use all the elements of the Tomb Kings army, from Core Units to Special Characters, and from magic weapons to the arcane Lore of Nehekhara. [p.27]

- This section describes all the different units in a Tomb Kings army. [p.28]

- Characters in a Tombs Kings army that have a chariot… [p.38]

- On the following pages are magic items available to Tombs Kings armies. [p.62]


Vampire Counts

- Each and every unit type in the army is examined here, with a full description alongside its complete rules. This section also includes the Vampire Counts’ unique magical artefacts and macabre spell lore. [p.3]

- In this section, you will find details for all the different troops, heroes, monsters and war machines used in the Vampire Counts army. It provides the background, imagery, characteristic profiles and rules necessary to use all the elements of the army. [p25]

- On these pages are magic items available to Vampire Counts armies. [p.62]


Beastmen

- Every unit and type of hero in the Beastmen army…[p.3]

- This section of the book details the forces of the Beastmen army. [p.33]

- On the following pages are magic items available to Beastmen armies. [p.92]


Daemons of Chaos

- This section of the book describes the different units in a Daemons of Chaos army, along with their rules. [p.26]

- Many characters in a Daemons of Chaos army have the option to purchase Daemonic Gifts. [p.61]


Warriors of Chaos

- This section describes all the units in a Warriors of Chaos army. [p.24]

- Note that the Daemonblade, Collar of Khorne, and Chaos Familiar are also magic items, and so follow all the normal rules for items of their types, with the exception that they are purchased differently in the Warriors of Chaos army list.

- On the following pages are magic items available to Warriors of Chaos armies. [p.62]



These repeated phrases say the same thing: in short, you can only take [x] unit with [x] army, and you can only use [x] items and special rules in an [x] army. We are then presented with this section in both Nagash and Glottkin:

- An Undead Legions army can include any of the units listed below. With the exception of those units and character detailed later in this section (denoted N [or GK] in brackets) you must use the unit profiles, points costs, equipment, options, and special rules found in either Warhammer: Vampire Counts or Warhammer: Tomb Kings. [p.20]


Here, the second sentence is further clarifying the first, allowing us to use the units, options, and special rules normally reserved for VC and TK armies. This in direct contradiction to the previously printed army books that state those things are only for those armies, and since it’s the newer publication, it overrides the older ones. Examples:

- Ghouls are a VC-only unit profile, but you’re allowed/required to use “the unit profiles…found in Warhammer: Vampire Counts.”

- The Daemonblade is a WoC-only character option, but you’re allowed/required to take “the unit…options…found in Warhammer: Warriors of Chaos.”

- “And the Tomb Kings rode to war” is a TK-only special rule, but you’re allowed/required to use the unit…special rules…found in Warhammer: Tomb Kings.”


The only reason we’re allowed to take any units at all is because of that sentence. So, you’re allowed to make use of/take all the options and special rules in each unit entry, in exactly the same manner as you are allowed to take the units in the first place, despite them being [x] army only. Based on that evidence, it seems clear that all units, options, and special rules that are normally army-specific, become available for use in a Legions army. Remember, all army-specific options fall under the “options” part of each qualifying unit entry, which opens the door to using army-specific options.


Why would only a part of the sentence be applicable to allow units but not their options? Why would it allow some options but not other options? That’s requiring some leaps of reasoning that just aren’t supported by the End Times rules.


As an addendum, we are also told that the term “Undead Legions” refers to “a combined force chosen from the aforementioned army books. Unfortunately, “combined force” doesn’t really mean anything. While we can connect the idea to Allied armies (“By combining several players’ armies into alliances” [p.136] and “But in my Army Book it says…” [p.137]), we cannot exactly follow those rules because it involves multiple players and their armies instead of a single player and his combined army. It does set a good precedent though, for “if they [the rules] don’t quite fit the circumstances that have popped up in your game, then by all means find another way”.


Again, while this technically pertains more to multiple players instead of a single one, it still gives some wiggle room on what to do.



These are the options that can be considered for resolving this overarching issue with the End Times rules, and the consequences of each, along with possible solutions:


1. If everything is allowed, then all armies can make full use of their options and special rules as normal. This is supported by the End Times rules, full stop.

a. One solution is to follow the rules as written, which allows units, options, and special rules to be used as intended, treating the army as both a Vampire Counts army and a Tomb Kings army, exactly as stated in the Nagash book.

2. If everything is disallowed, then the Undead Legions and The Legions of Chaos armies cannot be used whatsoever, because if you can’t take the units in the first place, the unit options are irrelevant. This is not supported by the End Times rules at all.

a. This shouldn’t be an option to begin with, but here it is for the sake of completeness.


3. If the critical sentence is broken apart and units are allowed, but not their options or special rules, then units cannot take any options [e.g. can only be minimum size, cannot take commands, no army-specific options, etc.]. This is not supported by the End Times rules at all.

a. One solution is to Errata as follows:

i. Tomb Kings: You may not choose any of the magic items on pages 62 and 63, nor can you make use of “And the Tomb Kings rode to war…” special rule. You may not use any other unit options (e.g. adding more models, command, etc.).

ii. Vampire Counts: You may not choose any of the magic items on pages 62 and 63. You may not use any other unit options (e.g. adding more models, command, etc.)

iii. Beastmen: You may not choose any of the magic items on pages 92-95. You may not use any other unit options (e.g. adding more models, command, etc.)

iv. Daemons of Chaos: You may not choose any of the Daemonic Gifts on page 61. You may not use any other unit options (e.g. adding more models, command, etc.)

v. Warriors of Chaos: You may not choose the Daemonblade, Collar of Khorne, and Chaos Familiar on page 61, nor can you choose any of the magic items on pages 62 and 63. You may not use any other unit options (e.g. adding more models, command, etc.)


4. If the critical sentence is broken apart and units and options are allowed, but not their special rules, the units can take any normal options available to them, including army-specific choices. They cannot, however, use their special rules. This is not supported by the End Times rules at all.

a. One solution is to Errata as follows:

i. In all army books that are part of the Undead Legions and The Legions of Chaos army lists, you may use all magic items, Daemonic Gifts, Chaos Powers & Mutations, but you cannot use any army-specific special rules (e.g. “And the Tomb Kings rode to war…”)




As you can see, there is no option to “allow some unit options, but not army-specific choices”. As well, allowing some army-specific items (Daemons’ gifts, etc) but not others shows a complete lack of consistency, instead showing favoritism toward certain armies.

 

[John Rainbow]

Thanks for posting your thoughts. It appears as though the different events at Adepticon are ruling this differently. Am I right in thinking this?

 

[Veritas]

Correct, unfortunately.

But, anything can change still! As of right now though, only our End Times tournament will be using the RAW and allowing all the goodies as designed.

 

[Undying Scourge]

Why do you care so much what people do at this "Adepticon". What is Adepticon, and why do you treat them as though they are the premier authority on all things?

 

[estwheadn]

Why do you care so much what people do at this "Adepticon". What is Adepticon, and why do you treat them as though they are the premier authority on all things?

It's massive warhammer event. And for all the games that occur in their event they are the premier authority. And many people trust their rulings because they actually make a educated ruling and, while unofficial, unless gw has posted a faq it is the next best thing.

 

[Veritas]

Good sir, I must conclude you live under a rock, or not in the US or UK. :tongue:

Adepticon is THE GRAND POOBAH when it comes to tournaments in the US. For the 40k side, their own FAQ held weight over most events across the country. I'm hoping ours does the same for the WFB moving forward. Many people use it as the "standard" metric to gauge how the scene will go, because of how much it influences other events and such. It's four days of tournaments and demo games and all sorts of good stuff.

www.adepticon.org if you're interested in learning more.

 

[LordTobiothan]

@LordTobiothan not quite sure how you just shrugged off my argument against wizards in an UL army so easily. I was using your method of RAW when I saw it. If magic items aren't allowed than only lvl 3 vampire lords are allowed and any wizaed can only take lore of undeath.
You are arguing that the book tells you specifically to you use only certain parts of the army books. I that is true than we look at what they do allow us to use. The Magic section is not in the list they give us. You argue back that wizards in those books inherently can take certain lores no matter what. We are arguing that characters in the books can inherently take certain magic items. I get the whole "VC army only" business but you've just created a double standard. It does not say that we use that part of their entries in an UL army so we can't. If that's not true then we can take magic items from our books because it's practically the same argument saying why we can.

If UL wizards are only allowed to take lore of undeath then I really don't see them being played much. Unless you are using Nagash the original books are just better.

And UL doesn't tell me to use the Brb either. So does that mean I can use 10x my attack value because there are no rules governing how I use my units statistics?

Things apply to everything they say they apply too. Magic items in the VC book specifically disallow any other army from taking them regardless of how many vc units your army is comprised of.

 

[LordTobiothan]

Still, there is a very fine line and regardless, RAW doesn't preclude army book magic items as the listing allows magic items up to a certain point value to be taken for that unit as found in VC. It doesn't need to state their allowance any more than how it already does because stating options as found in VC is inclusive of the army book and it's own magic items.

If it is inclusive of things that specifically disallow their use does that mean I can take armor on a ghoul king or a necro?

It says I can't because of warhammer rules but the Nagash book says I can take any option available in the book even if otherwise specifically disallowed, like the magic items are.

There isn't a passage that says build them like you are fielding the army of the book you found them in. It just says go to this book to find the unit.

 

[Undying Scourge]

Actually I do live in the UK, it's just that most people who I would play with don't give a rat's backside what some people do at tournaments.

I'm just really fed up with people conforming to what other people say rather than coming up with their own interpretation, and I really don't like powergamers or rules lawyers.

 

[estwheadn]

"There isn't a passage that says build them like you are fielding the army of the book you found them in"

yes there is. It is the one everyone has been throwing down your throat. I refuse to quote it again.

"it says go to this book to find the unit"

No it doesn't.

 

[LordTobiothan]

This is my RAW take on it, and why we're allowing things as is appropriate for our Adepticon event (unlike the other guys that aren't listening to reason :tongue: )

In every army book, there exists terminology that says the units, items, and certain special rules are only available in [x] army:


Tomb Kings

- Each and every troop type in the Tomb Kings army is examined here. You will find a full description of each unit, alongside complete rules of any special abilities or options they possess. [p.3]

- In this section, you will find details for all the different troops, heroes, monsters and war machines used in a Tomb Kings army. It provides the descriptions, imagery, characteristics profiles and special rules necessary to use all the elements of the Tomb Kings army, from Core Units to Special Characters, and from magic weapons to the arcane Lore of Nehekhara. [p.27]

- This section describes all the different units in a Tomb Kings army. [p.28]

- Characters in a Tombs Kings army that have a chariot… [p.38]

- On the following pages are magic items available to Tombs Kings armies. [p.62]


Vampire Counts

- Each and every unit type in the army is examined here, with a full description alongside its complete rules. This section also includes the Vampire Counts’ unique magical artefacts and macabre spell lore. [p.3]

- In this section, you will find details for all the different troops, heroes, monsters and war machines used in the Vampire Counts army. It provides the background, imagery, characteristic profiles and rules necessary to use all the elements of the army. [p25]

- On these pages are magic items available to Vampire Counts armies. [p.62]


Beastmen

- Every unit and type of hero in the Beastmen army…[p.3]

- This section of the book details the forces of the Beastmen army. [p.33]

- On the following pages are magic items available to Beastmen armies. [p.92]


Daemons of Chaos

- This section of the book describes the different units in a Daemons of Chaos army, along with their rules. [p.26]

- Many characters in a Daemons of Chaos army have the option to purchase Daemonic Gifts. [p.61]


Warriors of Chaos

- This section describes all the units in a Warriors of Chaos army. [p.24]

- Note that the Daemonblade, Collar of Khorne, and Chaos Familiar are also magic items, and so follow all the normal rules for items of their types, with the exception that they are purchased differently in the Warriors of Chaos army list.

- On the following pages are magic items available to Warriors of Chaos armies. [p.62]



These repeated phrases say the same thing: in short, you can only take [x] unit with [x] army, and you can only use [x] items and special rules in an [x] army. We are then presented with this section in both Nagash and Glottkin:

- An Undead Legions army can include any of the units listed below. With the exception of those units and character detailed later in this section (denoted N [or GK] in brackets) you must use the unit profiles, points costs, equipment, options, and special rules found in either Warhammer: Vampire Counts or Warhammer: Tomb Kings. [p.20]


Here, the second sentence is further clarifying the first, allowing us to use the units, options, and special rules normally reserved for VC and TK armies. This in direct contradiction to the previously printed army books that state those things are only for those armies, and since it’s the newer publication, it overrides the older ones. Examples:

- Ghouls are a VC-only unit profile, but you’re allowed/required to use “the unit profiles…found in Warhammer: Vampire Counts.”

- The Daemonblade is a WoC-only character option, but you’re allowed/required to take “the unit…options…found in Warhammer: Warriors of Chaos.”

- “And the Tomb Kings rode to war” is a TK-only special rule, but you’re allowed/required to use the unit…special rules…found in Warhammer: Tomb Kings.”


The only reason we’re allowed to take any units at all is because of that sentence. So, you’re allowed to make use of/take all the options and special rules in each unit entry, in exactly the same manner as you are allowed to take the units in the first place, despite them being [x] army only. Based on that evidence, it seems clear that all units, options, and special rules that are normally army-specific, become available for use in a Legions army. Remember, all army-specific options fall under the “options” part of each qualifying unit entry, which opens the door to using army-specific options.


Why would only a part of the sentence be applicable to allow units but not their options? Why would it allow some options but not other options? That’s requiring some leaps of reasoning that just aren’t supported by the End Times rules.


As an addendum, we are also told that the term “Undead Legions” refers to “a combined force chosen from the aforementioned army books. Unfortunately, “combined force” doesn’t really mean anything. While we can connect the idea to Allied armies (“By combining several players’ armies into alliances” [p.136] and “But in my Army Book it says…” [p.137]), we cannot exactly follow those rules because it involves multiple players and their armies instead of a single player and his combined army. It does set a good precedent though, for “if they [the rules] don’t quite fit the circumstances that have popped up in your game, then by all means find another way”.


Again, while this technically pertains more to multiple players instead of a single one, it still gives some wiggle room on what to do.



These are the options that can be considered for resolving this overarching issue with the End Times rules, and the consequences of each, along with possible solutions:


1. If everything is allowed, then all armies can make full use of their options and special rules as normal. This is supported by the End Times rules, full stop.

a. One solution is to follow the rules as written, which allows units, options, and special rules to be used as intended, treating the army as both a Vampire Counts army and a Tomb Kings army, exactly as stated in the Nagash book.

2. If everything is disallowed, then the Undead Legions and The Legions of Chaos armies cannot be used whatsoever, because if you can’t take the units in the first place, the unit options are irrelevant. This is not supported by the End Times rules at all.

a. This shouldn’t be an option to begin with, but here it is for the sake of completeness.


3. If the critical sentence is broken apart and units are allowed, but not their options or special rules, then units cannot take any options [e.g. can only be minimum size, cannot take commands, no army-specific options, etc.]. This is not supported by the End Times rules at all.

a. One solution is to Errata as follows:

i. Tomb Kings: You may not choose any of the magic items on pages 62 and 63, nor can you make use of “And the Tomb Kings rode to war…” special rule. You may not use any other unit options (e.g. adding more models, command, etc.).

ii. Vampire Counts: You may not choose any of the magic items on pages 62 and 63. You may not use any other unit options (e.g. adding more models, command, etc.)

iii. Beastmen: You may not choose any of the magic items on pages 92-95. You may not use any other unit options (e.g. adding more models, command, etc.)

iv. Daemons of Chaos: You may not choose any of the Daemonic Gifts on page 61. You may not use any other unit options (e.g. adding more models, command, etc.)

v. Warriors of Chaos: You may not choose the Daemonblade, Collar of Khorne, and Chaos Familiar on page 61, nor can you choose any of the magic items on pages 62 and 63. You may not use any other unit options (e.g. adding more models, command, etc.)


4. If the critical sentence is broken apart and units and options are allowed, but not their special rules, the units can take any normal options available to them, including army-specific choices. They cannot, however, use their special rules. This is not supported by the End Times rules at all.

a. One solution is to Errata as follows:

i. In all army books that are part of the Undead Legions and The Legions of Chaos army lists, you may use all magic items, Daemonic Gifts, Chaos Powers & Mutations, but you cannot use any army-specific special rules (e.g. “And the Tomb Kings rode to war…”)




As you can see, there is no option to “allow some unit options, but not army-specific choices”. As well, allowing some army-specific items (Daemons’ gifts, etc) but not others shows a complete lack of consistency, instead showing favoritism toward certain armies.

Except you're making a leap that isn't there. Magic items are not a unit option. No unit in the VC book has the option to take them. They are an army option, in an army you are not playing. Unit options are in a units profile and nothing in any profile points to those items or even mentions them.

UL rules are specifically overriding a. The special rules section of each army book. And b. Which units you may field outside of the army they were made for with their regular unit options (again not army options).

Unit option: the ability to take a spear (not army specific)

Army option: demonic gifts or vampire powers (army specific options that had to have there own special passage to be used outside the army)

 

[najo]

And UL doesn't tell me to use the Brb either. So does that mean I can use 10x my attack value because there are no rules governing how I use my units statistics?

Things apply to everything they say they apply too. Magic items in the VC book specifically disallow any other army from taking them regardless of how many vc units your army is comprised of.

And the main rule book says armies use their magic items and the undead legion book says to treat units denoted as VC as from Warhammer Vampire Counts. What's so confusing?

 

[LordTobiothan]

"There isn't a passage that says build them like you are fielding the army of the book you found them in"

yes there is. It is the one everyone has been throwing down your throat. I refuse to quote it again.

"it says go to this book to find the unit"

No it doesn't.

It says use these units and THERE special rules options etc. Found in Warhammer armies: X (list of units).

In short go to this book to find this unit