Undead legion question

[LordTobiothan]

And the main rule book says armies use their magic items and the undead legion book says to treat units denoted as VC as from Warhammer Vampire Counts. What's so confusing?

I'm not seeing that passage. It says you can find units denoted as vc from warhammer vampire counts. I don't see anything that says treat them in any way. Got a page reference? Cause that could end the whole thing.

 

[najo]

If it is inclusive of things that specifically disallow their use does that mean I can take armor on a ghoul king or a necro?

It says I can't because of warhammer rules but the Nagash book says I can take any option available in the book even if otherwise specifically disallowed, like the magic items are.

There isn't a passage that says build them like you are fielding the army of the book you found them in. It just says go to this book to find the unit.

It says to use STUFF found in Warhammer VC. It actually says that. That's the point. What could GW possible mean when they direct you to the army book for each units special rules? Why would they disallow the magic items and make no mention of it?

 

[estwheadn]

"It says use these units and THERE special rules options etc. Found in Warhammer armies: X (list of units)."

Yes it does say that.

"In short go to this book to find this unit"


No it doesn't mean that. Go read my above posts. And units from a vampire counts army are part of a 'vampire counts army' whether they are in a stand alone VC army or combined with a tomb king army as an undead legion army. Undead legions counts as being a tomb king army, and it counts as being a vampire counts army. This reasons for this have already been stated.

Question for you, if a unit has hatred(Vampire Counts) do they lose this against a vampire from an undead legion army? I would say no.

And btw when you say "I ignore RAI" that just makes yo look ignorant. To me RAI is actually more important than RAW. If you understand the english definitions of the word you can see why. I would also like to point out that RAW isn't clear and therefore you always default to RAI. If you are arguing over punctuation and misplaced words then you aren't playing the game how it is meant to be played. I also appreciate that you believe RAI was to not give vampires access to vampire items... that's fine... however you are alone in that belief.

 

[najo]

We are going in circles. For the sake of community unity, one last go here is the quote:

An Undead Legions army can include any of the units listed below. With the exception of those units and character detailed later in this section (denoted N in brackets) you must use the unit profiles, points costs, equipment, options, and special rules found in either Warhammer: Vampire Counts orWarhammer: Tomb Kings. [p.20]

You must use...STUFF...found in EITHER VC or TK.

There is no break in that last sentence. It is one singular statement. It's not saying use just the unit profile (which is in both the army list and bestiary), it's also referring you to use its equipment, options, and special rules. It's not stating only in the army list, but referring to the army book as a whole. Those characters in that list, under OPTIONS (which you must use as found in VC), one of those options is take up to X points of magic items. So, if I'm selecting that unit option as found in Warhammer VC, it logically allows me to use brb and VC magic items. That's how that option works as found in warhammer vampire counts.

All of the arguments of magic items second saying they are for a Vampire Counts army do not apply because this is the first time they have done combined armies. They can't go back and change text in already printed books.Thstaandgndgg profiles, options etc covered all the bases. It's very clear GW didn't expect some players to read the end times books this way. Why would vampiric powers, daemonic gifts, mutations and all that be allowed but army book magic items wouldn't?

We go down your path of logic, daemons don't get gifts. The Daemons of Chaos states that many characters in a Daemons of Chaos army can purchase gifts.

Or how does mutations work, it's for chaos characters. Does all legions of chaos characters get to use the WoC mutations now? Do none of them?

The whole argument is based on the assumption that a descriptive reference at the top of the magic item page in each army book some how was intended to remain there and it negates the units in the list ability to reference those options.

And because that is so far reaching, especially how clearly the p20 text says to use the army book for the unit, that if GW had any intentions of those words at the top of those magic item pages to have reveliance right now, they would have written something into the rules for end times.

Honestly, a vocal minority and a couple of influential people at adepticon have way overblown this whole issue and it's like the writing is clear on the wall, but they just can't see it. Just the idea of banning magic items without clarifying while they clarified slain general/heriophant when they technically didn't need to, supports my argument.

But, I digress. Bottom line, magic items are an option found in warhammer vampire counts. Units denoted VC must use options found in warhammer vampire counts.

 

[najo]

I'm not seeing that passage. It says you can find units denoted as vc from warhammer vampire counts. I don't see anything that says treat them in any way. Got a page reference? Cause that could end the whole thing.

Warhammer rulebook p. 172, selecting magic items. Nagash p. 20.

 

[LordTobiothan]

Warhammer rulebook p. 172, selecting magic items. Nagash p. 20.

Yeah mine only says use the units. Doesn't say to treat them as being from the army book you are getting the rules out of.

Only passage that alludes to that is the one quoted in this thread that says an undead legions army is both a vampire counts and a tomb kings army. Which would allow them to share items if anything.

 

[Infernal Skull]

And UL doesn't tell me to use the Brb either. So does that mean I can use 10x my attack value because there are no rules governing how I use my units statistics?

That's because the BRB tells you to use the BRB. The Warhammer rulebook comes first and it specifies how a model's stat line works and how the game is played. The Warhammer rulebook instructs you to use Army Books to select your army for Warhammer games, not vice versa.

You are arguing that the book tells you specifically to you use only certain parts of the army books. I that is true than we look at what they do allow us to use. The Magic section is not in the list they give us.

LOL! "He's right, Williamson."

Props, GhoulKing505! Too true. So, anyone arguing that army magic items can't be used because the End Times book isn't precise enough in its wording to allow them HAS to ignore the "Magic:" heading in each character's unit entry, because that's Rules As Written--

The Nagash book does not say to use unit entries from the VC book. It ONLY says to use profiles, point costs, special rules, equipment, and options. According to RAW, it does not allow you to use anything listed under the "Magic" heading in the unit entry, because "Magic" is not in that list.

So, yeah: The character is not a wizard until you buy whatever wizard level it says in the character's options, but you still cannot use the "magic" heading, so you cannot select any Magic Lore that is listed there, and are therefore limited to Lore of Undeath, because that can be selected by "any wizard."

A Vampire Lord can purchase up to 3 levels (making him from Levels 0-3), but nothing under "options" allows him to select Lore of Vampires, Lore of Death, etc. so he can't use those lores. The rule that specifies what spell lore the character can use is under his "Magic" heading, which the Nagash book very clearly does not say to use.

So, RAW magic items dissenters, please prove this theory wrong by citing exact rules text to the contrary.

And this position can even be supported from a fluff standpoint: Since the Undead Legions general doesn't need to be a wizard to sustain the army anymore, there's no need for a Vampire Lord to be a wizard at all unless you pay for the option. Nagash could be siphoning away all the Nehekaran and Vampiric magic and the abilities of lesser magic users, leaving only the more powerful (read: higher level) wizards in play or by causing low-level wizards to be more rare (Read: higher points cost), and thus making the fancy new Lore of Undeath the official Undead Legions magic lore. It works from a sales standpoint, as well– It encourages you to buy the End Times special characters if you still want characters and wizards with magic items and access to different magic lores.

 

[najo]

I just literally got off the phone with my friend who works for GW. I sent him the Adepticon link and asked him to push it up the chain to the FAQ guys. He said he would.

He also said no one at GW plays end times that way, and people who insist that magic items are not allowed are a dozen or so vocal people who aren't playing Warhammer for fun and are going to find something to argue about regardless.

His words, not mine. If GW doesn't rule on this it's because they perceive it as crazy to. They feel the rules are clear and that no one at GW is playing the way that forbids magic items. No one.

 

[Undying Scourge]

Exactly Najo, it's basically just a bunch of hardcore powergamers with sweaty armpits and neckbeards that are making a fuss over this, it's fairly obviously stated that you can use the magic items from both army books. They just want to protect their cheesy lists, or they really have nothing better to do.

 

[Infernal Skull]

I know, this entire debate really is laughable.

 

[najo]

We do need to keep in mind there are real people with real feelings on both sides of the debate. Yes, this debate is frustrating as it seems so obvious how the RAW is. But some times a certain perspective can't be shifted as it defies that persons logic.

I have a friend who plays vampire counts. One day I was playing a game and went to use VHDM on a unit. I moved them 8" and he stopped me and said they could only move 4" as they weren't in the march radius of the general. In the debate that ensued, he stated the unit moves as in the remaining moves phase up to 8", so the march radius would apply. I read the spell as giving you up to 8" of movement that follows the rules in the remaining moves phase. Very fine distinction. Most of the time you don't notice, but then something happens that cause the anomaly to surface and you have a passionate gamer debate.

I've never seen or heard of anyone not using the full 8" of movement. My friend at GW agreed with me then too. He said then, that GW's rules are not meant to be complicated but read easily in plain speak without over complicated interpretation. The rules are written exactly as common sense dictates.

I posted before that GW is a game company making fun, strategic games for the majority of people who play them and their rules aren't meant to be so technically RAW that it causes debate. Their rules are clean, to the point and sometimes require RAI common sense when something gets missed. When approached this way, GW's products make a lot of sense.

I've been playing over 25 years. I've come at their rules this way most of the time. When I do, inevitability the FAQ that comes out I've been spot on. Whenever I've gotten so RAW I end up in weird debate and having to decipher it to prove my point, I've been wrong. GW doesn't want their game to be decoded and argued over. They want it easy to grasp and fun to play. They write exactly what they mean.

That is why end times armies can use magic items from their army books. Because that is the smoothest, easiest least complicated interpretation of the rule on pg. 20.

@LordTobiothan I can respect we have different opinions on this. Why it's important to me we reach a conclusion is how much disruption this debate is causing too players interacting and sharing ideas on their end times armies. Even Adepticon most likely has this wrong. That's a big deal. But I've a lot of experience and industry connections in these matters and I find it unlikely GW is going to side with the no magic item position. It's not what the point of the combined armies is.

 

[LordTobiothan]

@najo well you already know my stance on the rules as intended and the excerpt about ul being a vc and TK army actually gives it some merit as much as your rai interpretation so even our versions of rai don't quite match up

@thegeneralforumusersinthisthread
I want you all to keep in mind, when I go into a rules portion of a forum, my only concern is the RAW. I'm not going to go into your army list thread and tell you you can't use those items, as that is not the place for such discussion, but this is.

Keep that in mind before questioning my lack of common sense. (This is directed at no one in particular).

 

[estwheadn]

I just don't understand how you could possibly think RAI is to deny the use of their magic items. There is just no way GW would do that to the players... make them choose between magic items and allowing tomb kings. I understand that you are really stubborn, but like really at least admit that it makes no sense to deny vampire magic items to vampires.

 

[estwheadn]

Also here is another good RAW argument FOR the cause.

Weapons and armor are referred to as being 'equipment' several times in the rule book. For example in the 'Choosing your Army' section under the 'Points Values' header:

"Most warriors have a basic cost that increases as you upgrade their equipment and abilities,"

And the more obvious way to support this premise is that mundane armor and weapons always appear under the 'Equipment:' header in a unit entry.
This gives us the first premise to the argument:
P1-> Weapons and Armour are equipment

From the 'Magic Armor' section we get this quote:
"Except where otherwise stated, magical suits of armour and shields follow the same rules as mundane ones"

There is a similar line in the 'Magic Weapon' sections for magic weapons. This give us the second premise:
P2-> Magic weapons and armor are treated as mundane weapons and armor
Do not be fooled by the fact that 'magic items:' and 'equipment:' have their own headings in unit entries of special characters like vlad or mannfred the acolyte. Magic Items is a subclass of equipment meaning that magic items are to equipment as squares are to rectangles.

The last premise is beating the dead horse that is the following quote:
"You must use the unit profiles, points costs, equipment, options and special rules found in either Warhammer: Vampire Counts [**notice how it does not say 'the vampire counts army book'**] (Denoted by VC) or..."

P3-> Vampire characters use the equipment found in warhammer: vampire counts

so now we put it all together

P1-> Weapons and Armour are equipment
P2-> Magic weapons and armor are treated as mundane weapons and armor
P3-> Vampire characters use the equipment found in warhammer: vampire counts
Conclusion: Vampire characters use the magic weapons and armor found in warhammer: vampire counts

 

[LordTobiothan]

I just don't understand how you could possibly think RAI is to deny the use of their magic items. There is just no way GW would do that to the players... make them choose between magic items and allowing tomb kings. I understand that you are really stubborn, but like really at least admit that it makes no sense to deny vampire magic items to vampires.

You really should read the whole thread before making remarks about something I said to someone who actually knows what I am referring to. I know you haven't done that because your response makes no sense to anyone who has read the thread.

 

[LordTobiothan]

P1-> Weapons and Armour are equipment
P2-> Magic weapons and armor are treated as mundane weapons and armor
P3-> Vampire characters use the equipment found in warhammer: vampire counts
Conclusion: Vampire characters use the magic weapons and armor found in warhammer: vampire counts

Vampire characters do use magic weapons and armor. No one is debating that. They do have to be in a vampire counts army to use the ones in Warhammer vc though as per the rules in Warhammer vc.

 

[estwheadn]

Bro I have read the entire thread, I've been posting since the beginning. And I think you are the one who is not understanding my posts, everyone else understands just fine. Also I laid my arguments out quite clearly so I'm not sure how you managed not to understand.

Direct quote:
"You must use the unit profiles, points costs, equipment, options and special rules found in either Warhammer: Vampire Counts (Denoted by VC) or..."

Notice how it does not say 'the vampire counts army book'? This means that any unit profiles, points costs, equipment, options and special rules you would find in a Vampire Counts Army aka Warhammer: Vampire Counts as it is referred to in the quote. And if you consult my above post you will see that I proved that magic items are equipment. And therefore characters can use army book magic items. The only and I mean the ONLY way for you to disprove it is to show that "Warhammer: Vampire Counts" does not equal "Vampire Counts Army". Or to show that magic items are not equipment. I would really appreciate it if you actually responded directly to my arguments rather than just skimming, realizing I'm against you, and then restating the things that you have already said and I have already disproved.

 

[GhoulKing505]

@Infernal Skull I'm glad someone appreciated the humor of the RAW argument I brought up. I don't know how anyone can argue against it since it specifically states that that's what you use from the book. RAI is certainly not that way though.

Let's just all give this argument a rest and wait for an FAQ. I liked my compromise idea (yes, use magic items but no crossing magic items or coven thrones in skeleton chariot units). This is the middle ground between not allowing anything and allowing everything. Simply saying that UL counts as both TK and VC armies isn't a good solution as this would allow everything. Saying that strictly RAW is the way to go isn't a good solution either because as I've explained it means UL wizards only get lore of undeath. So a compromise is a good idea until the FAQ is released.

Just trying to be a peacekeeper here.

 

[estwheadn]

I just read page 84 of the vampire counts book. It goes through the different parts of the unit entry. Under "Options" it says in these exact words "This is a list of optional weapons and armour, mounts, magic items and other upgrades for units or..."

Does this not disprove the "lore of undeath only" argument?

 

[GhoulKing505]

@estwheadn no it doesn't. If you look at pages 86-88 all the wizards have an extra header titled "Magic:". "Options:" is a seperate header. Since it specifies that we use the profile, point costs, equipmemt, special rules, and options for models and units and says nothing of the "Magic:" header we don't use it. And because under that header is where we can choose what lore we get we don't get to choose and have to default to lore of undeath. Even on pg 27 it has the options to take different lores under "Magic:". It was clearly an oversight that most people wouldn't even notice anyways. I did because I thought it was funny.

 

[estwheadn]

By that logic none of the units have troop types either then. page 84 of the vampire counts army book clearly shows that "unit profile" and "troop type" are exclusive. They also have no unit size for that matter.

So no stomps/thunderstomps for monsters and monstrous infantry, no impact hits for chariots, you can take 1 man units of hexwraiths, etc.
RAI? I don't think so.

 

[LordTobiothan]

Bro I have read the entire thread, I've been posting since the beginning. And I think you are the one who is not understanding my posts, everyone else understands just fine. Also I laid my arguments out quite clearly so I'm not sure how you managed not to understand.

Direct quote:
"You must use the unit profiles, points costs, equipment, options and special rules found in either Warhammer: Vampire Counts (Denoted by VC) or..."

Notice how it does not say 'the vampire counts army book'? This means that any unit profiles, points costs, equipment, options and special rules you would find in a Vampire Counts Army aka Warhammer: Vampire Counts as it is referred to in the quote. And if you consult my above post you will see that I proved that magic items are equipment. And therefore characters can use army book magic items. The only and I mean the ONLY way for you to disprove it is to show that "Warhammer: Vampire Counts" does not equal "Vampire Counts Army". Or to show that magic items are not equipment. I would really appreciate it if you actually responded directly to my arguments rather than just skimming, realizing I'm against you, and then restating the things that you have already said and I have already disproved.

Warhammer: chaos legions contains karl franz ascendant, he is not an option for a chaos legions army despite being in warhammer: chaos legions, because he states only an empire army can use him, just like being a unit in the warhammer: vc book does not make you part of a vampire counts army.

And if you've followed the thread how are you so far off on what I think is RAI?

 

[Infernal Skull]

By that logic none of the units have troop types either then. page 84 of the vampire counts army book clearly shows that "unit profile" and "troop type" are exclusive. They also have no unit size for that matter.

So no stomps/thunderstomps for monsters and monstrous infantry, no impact hits for chariots, you can take 1 man units of hexwraiths, etc.
RAI? I don't think so.

Not quite. Page 4 of the BRB says under Other Important Information:

"In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a troop type, such as infantry or cavalry..."

So the BRB already states that models have troop types; the UL book doesn't need to reiterate that. Also, troop type isn't something you get to select, so you don't need permission to "choose" the model's troop type.

As far as the Unit size, you're right. I guess any minimum or maximum unit size is ignored.

Specifically, UL says use the points cost, and the points costs in the army book are listed as either "X points" or "X points per model." So units of troops can still buy multiple models. 30 skeletons are still "5 points per model" for 150 in total, and a Varghulf is still "175 points." Even though we ignore the "unit size: 1" there is no option to buy extra Varghulfs, so a Varghulf is still just a Varghulf.

Paying points for units of models still appears to work as normal, although in your no-magic-item-lore-of-undeath-only Undead Legions army you could have units of 1 Hexwraith. But remember there can't be more than 3 of any one special unit type, so you could get a couple units of 1 or 2 Hexwraiths. Or... maybe a 30-man unit of them! (Although that might be unwieldy trying to move through enemy units, and you'd better hope you don't face any Skaven or Dwarf shooting!)

 

[LordTobiothan]

@Infernal Skull I'm glad someone appreciated the humor of the RAW argument I brought up. I don't know how anyone can argue against it since it specifically states that that's what you use from the book. RAI is certainly not that way though.

Let's just all give this argument a rest and wait for an FAQ. I liked my compromise idea (yes, use magic items but no crossing magic items or coven thrones in skeleton chariot units). This is the middle ground between not allowing anything and allowing everything. Simply saying that UL counts as both TK and VC armies isn't a good solution as this would allow everything. Saying that strictly RAW is the way to go isn't a good solution either because as I've explained it means UL wizards only get lore of undeath. So a compromise is a good idea until the FAQ is released.

Just trying to be a peacekeeper here.

it also doesn't say to use the rules from the brb, which means I get to make up what my statistics and special rules mean right? The brb says to use the brb, just like the magic section of any wizards unit says to use this for any vampire lord/master necro/etc.

This option isn't army specific, therefore we don't need special access to it like we do with a units other rules, because no other army can use the vampire counts stats and rules for a dire wolf, we need the UL book to give us permission. No book needs permission to use the magic section of the units rules because it is not army specific, any armies vampire lord has those options (the fact no other vampire lord unit exists is irrelevant).

 

[estwheadn]

@Infernal Skull yeah it is all ridiculous and stupid and the actual way to play undead legions is obvious.

@LordTobiothan Do you understand the meaning of the word "intended"? It is more important than rules as written from any gamer's perspective. Also kfa is not relevant since he has his profile written in the supplement book with specific details on how to field him. Also if "warhammer: [insert army name]" was referring to a book, then if anything kfa would be in "warhammer: glotkin"

Anyways if you want to play your games with undead legions having no minimum unit size, and no access to magic items or magic then go ahead. I'm done with this conversation because you don't seem to get the point that if you accept "no magic items" as RAW you have to accept no minimum unit sizes and no magic. If you don't believe that playing a game the way it was intended to be played is the correct way to play then I guess there's nothing I can do. I'm definitely not going to waste my time trying to convince you anymore