Vampires are not Inherently Evil (Just Misunderstood)

[propervillanz]

This thread is getting too deep for double shift Johnny.....

Can't we all just say people who play lizardmen and run Teclis are evil and call it a day?

My net died shortly after making that giant post so trust me mate, I feel you're pain, hell my computer died on the same day as well so is under repair whilst my net is down.

Now I do agree with you there WP, fantasy is far to cut and dry and within reason I would like to see more mixing of forces like the new 40k in 9th edition.

Also on a side note when where there so many mackems on this site??

Mwahahahahahahahaaaaa

We are here because Sunderland is bigger & better than you're little "Toon".
Enjoy Man United on the weekend.

By the way though mate you should drag yourself down to the regional tournament this november 4th down in Nottingham, Newcastle is selling tickets atm, got mine in my Local Sunderland Store if you are still Studying on this side of the water.

bigger and better really? I think i'll just agree to disagree with you there and aye I did enjoy Man Utd lol jk not but certainly looking foward to this sunday.

Its the first im hearing of regionals mate to be honest but that last actual game I had was against you so dont think im ready for them like.

On topic Geordie boy.
Should of known you Mag's get sidetracked easily.
The Sunderland Vs Newcastle match though will be a good one.

I haven't read any of the novels myself but i think they make generalizing vampires a bit difficult. Considering Edward and Dracula are both vampires to talk about vampires as a concept is now rather tricky to do.

Personally I don't think anything is good or evil. We can do actions which may be good or evil and if we do lots of evil actions than we would generally be considered an evil person i.e Voldemort, Dracula, Sauron. That doesn't mean there isn't good in them too though

I really don't think you can compare Dracula and Edward Cullen ever in the same sentence.
It's like comparing a Michelin Star Restaurant and Bowel rupturing Diahorea caused by a truck stop Egg Mayo Sandwich.

All good and evil depends on how things are used.
For instance the empire employs necromancers to help in investigations, speak with the long dead from who they need information and other what not even to the point where they control the already risen to defend themselves but are not considered evil and for the most part are in the employ of the empire and the Cult of Sigmar.
Not sure though I could put Voldemort, Dracula and Sauron on the evil list.
Dracula no as he did love and he became a vampire for forsakin god after his love died whilst he was fighting in his name, Voldemort most probably as it was for his gain, Sauron...... I don't think he ever was a man to start with so calling him evil depends on whether or not you can apply that concept to him, I don't refer to Orcs as evil or Ogres but I am almost certain they would enjoy going on a bloody rampage and eating everybody they can.

Sauron was essentially one of the lesser order of angels in the lord of the rings world. He is actually of the same class as Gandalf. He chose to follow Morgoth when he broke away from God and after Morgoth was bound in the Void he made it his mission to free him. To do so he wanted to take over all of Middle-Earth and use it as a staging ground to invade the realm of the Powers of the Earth "Arch Angels". Long story short he is totally and completely evil as he seeks to tear down all of creation and rebuild it in his master's image.

In terms of Vampires i like to think they cover the spectrum of good-evil-morally devoid and only because they were once human. However, they cannot be considered evil simply because they feed on human blood the same way a lion is not evil because it eats impala's to survive.

 

[Raizi]

Blablabla...Sauron was essentially one of the lesser order of angels ... broke away from God ... "Arch Angels".

Oh no... the pain. Please, don't mix up different mythologies. The lore of Middle-Earth has nothing to do with Christian mythology, although it has similarities. The Balrogs, Gandalf, Sauron and the other wizards (Saruman, Radagast...) are described being just spirits, (called Maiar, lesser Ainur) that are bound to greater spirits, that govern them (called Valar, greater Ainur)

Back to the topic; I think categorizing vampires as purely evil creatures is discrimination and dangerous hate speech!

Most of us just like to live peacefully and we make arrangements with the local butcher's shops and blood banks instead of prowling in the night.

Please, go donate some blood for the needy!

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Thank you Raizi... Tolkien can rest now

 

[Whisky Priest]

Dracula no as he did love and he became a vampire for forsakin god after his love died whilst he was fighting in his name,

In the Gary oldman movie at least.

In the book he is a good deal less sympathetic..... :konrad:

 

[Zhatan]

Dracula no as he did love and he became a vampire for forsakin god after his love died whilst he was fighting in his name,

In the Gary oldman movie at least.

In the book he is a good deal less sympathetic..... :konrad:

Also we really have no idéa of how the vampires percieve love. Perhaps it's not love at all but just a twisted image of it. Remnants of the feelings they had in life if you will.
That goes for both Dracula and Vlad in warhammer.

 

[Christophe von Carstein]

I may be easily sidetracked Duke but thats not got anything to do with being a geordie

Now ive not read Dracula in a couple years so what I say may be wrong and slightly confused with the film, because what I remember of the Dracula book is it was written as if from the point of view of Jonathan Harker, Nina, Van Helsing and the guy who runs the Asylum, I forget his name not Draculas so his actual motives, emotions etc are unclear or misconcepted by the black and white idea of good and evil. where as the film does humanise him showing him capable of love

But again from what I remember Stoker had nightmares about demonic creatures (vampires) as well as research on the likes of Vlad the Impaler to inspire his novel so I dont think Stoker ever intended for Dracula to be "good" And I think arguing Vlad the Impaler was a good guy is a difficult one (although probs achievable, most likely or unsurprisingly by Duke) he was a mean S.O.B whatever way you look at it but was he not just doing that as much to frighten his enemies as much as for his own gruesome satisfaction

 

[Raizi]

I think arguing Vlad the Impaler was a good guy is a difficult one (although probs achievable, most likely or unsurprisingly by Duke) he was a mean S.O.B whatever way you look at it but was he not just doing that as much to frighten his enemies as much as for his own gruesome satisfaction

Challenge accepted!

He's actually viewed as a patriotic war-hero in most of Romania, when he fought and held back the Ottoman Turkish invasion. He just gave the orders and used the most efficient shock-tactic available to him when fighting a foe that had superior numbers.

Terror warfare from the 15th century. It wasn't pretty, but it was effective.

A good read about the stuff can be found here:

http://www.donlinke.com/drakula/vlad.htm

[Edit: After reading that piece you still have to agree that he was in fact, a rather mean S.O.B. but then again, he is still held in high regard in Romania, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_Greatest_Romanians 11/100]

 

[Whisky Priest]

Dracula no as he did love and he became a vampire for forsakin god after his love died whilst he was fighting in his name,

In the Gary oldman movie at least.

In the book he is a good deal less sympathetic..... :konrad:

Also we really have no idéa of how the vampires percieve love. Perhaps it's not love at all but just a twisted image of it. Remnants of the feelings they had in life if you will.
That goes for both Dracula and Vlad in warhammer.

Check out this thread, Zhatan.

https://www.vampirecounts.net/Thread-Marriage-and-Vampirism

And again, i'll refer back to Nights Dark Masters that states vampires are quite capable of (pure and untainted) romantic love and forming romantic and loving attachments to other vampires or mortals etc.

In Liber Necris (which is written by Mannfred von Carstein), he talks about Vlad and Isabella and the love they shared. And that is from the perspective of the vampire himself.

 

[Whisky Priest]

I think arguing Vlad the Impaler was a good guy is a difficult one (although probs achievable, most likely or unsurprisingly by Duke) he was a mean S.O.B whatever way you look at it but was he not just doing that as much to frighten his enemies as much as for his own gruesome satisfaction

Challenge accepted!

He's actually viewed as a patriotic war-hero in most of Romania, when he fought and held back the Ottoman Turkish invasion. He just gave the orders and used the most efficient shock-tactic available to him when fighting a foe that had superior numbers.

Terror warfare from the 15th century. It wasn't pretty, but it was effective.

A good read about the stuff can be found here:

http://www.donlinke.com/drakula/vlad.htm

[Edit: After reading that piece you still have to agree that he was in fact, a rather mean S.O.B. but then again, he is still held in high regard in Romania, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_Greatest_Romanians 11/100]

To look at Vlad Tepes and determine if he was evil, you really need to look at him in the context of society and morality of his time.

A very good example of this is Genghis Khan. He was probably directly responsible for the deaths of more individuals than any other man who has ever lived (including Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, Pol Pot et al), certainly in terms of proportion of the population of the world, if not in real terms. BUT - he was merely acting within the accepted social boundaries of the world he been born into, and didn't really step beyond those bounds - despite the blood on his hands. As such, you can't say he was evil.

Vlad Tepes, on the other hand, did go beyond the bounds of what has to be said were a fairly brutal set of social mores. The Major Western European Monarchs tolerated him as necessary evil, as he got the job done against the Turks - and impaling 25,000 of them was quite acceoptable to the Europeans of the time. Its when he started doing it to his own people and nobility that they started to try to remove him from power.

So
good - definitely not!!
evil - he did cross the line of what was acceptable in his day, but he was probably more a dark gray than black. Certainly, he wasn't the only closet sociopath to sit on a European throne at the time - look at Ivan the Terrible for example.

 

[Chaos Zombie]

That brings it back to the idea of perspective, Germans considered hitler to be a hero in WW2.
Consider Hitler as Konrad von Carstein, are those like him (nazis/vampires) evil. some soldiers would be fighting on the good side in their opinions.
It is a case of the actions of few show on the many.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Dracula no as he did love and he became a vampire for forsakin god after his love died whilst he was fighting in his name,

In the Gary oldman movie at least.

In the book he is a good deal less sympathetic..... :konrad:

Also we really have no idéa of how the vampires percieve love. Perhaps it's not love at all but just a twisted image of it. Remnants of the feelings they had in life if you will.
That goes for both Dracula and Vlad in warhammer.

Honestly there are a dozen versions on what happened and I only know 4, that guys gets more time on the front of a cross than jesus these days.

Dracula no as he did love and he became a vampire for forsakin god after his love died whilst he was fighting in his name,

In the Gary oldman movie at least.

In the book he is a good deal less sympathetic..... :konrad:

Also we really have no idéa of how the vampires percieve love. Perhaps it's not love at all but just a twisted image of it. Remnants of the feelings they had in life if you will.
That goes for both Dracula and Vlad in warhammer.

Vlad Fell in Love with Isabella after he was a Vampire, see the army books and the Vampire Wars Trilogy book one.
Nefrata fell in love with Vlad when She was a Vampire, See Nights Dark Masters. "I loved him the moment I laid eyes on him"
Walach had the love of his life (Aurora I belive though not sure on spelling) killed during the battle of blood keep.

I could keep going mate, Vampire are creature of pure emotion, love, rage, passion, lust, they do all things in extremes.

Dracula no as he did love and he became a vampire for forsakin god after his love died whilst he was fighting in his name,

In the Gary oldman movie at least.

In the book he is a good deal less sympathetic..... :konrad:

Also we really have no idéa of how the vampires percieve love. Perhaps it's not love at all but just a twisted image of it. Remnants of the feelings they had in life if you will.
That goes for both Dracula and Vlad in warhammer.

Check out this thread, Zhatan.

https://www.vampirecounts.net/Thread-Marriage-and-Vampirism

And again, i'll refer back to Nights Dark Masters that states vampires are quite capable of (pure and untainted) romantic love and forming romantic and loving attachments to other vampires or mortals etc.

In Liber Necris (which is written by Mannfred von Carstein), he talks about Vlad and Isabella and the love they shared. And that is from the perspective of the vampire himself.

Once again you make a good point.
"He did not love me most, not that title goes to isabella but he certainly loved me longest"

That brings it back to the idea of perspective, Germans considered hitler to be a hero in WW2.
Consider Hitler as Konrad von Carstein, are those like him (nazis/vampires) evil. some soldiers would be fighting on the good side in their opinions.
It is a case of the actions of few show on the many.

I think we should stay away from Hitler though, I agree we could argue the point but it goes off topic and it could upset some people.

 

[Aren]

Nerenzade no thing is evil, just their actions and decisions. A vampire is just an ill human who has to drink blood to stay strong. They are still humans, and it is portrayed best in Dracula, the Gary oldman version. According to your reasoning everyone is evil, as everyone in their lives would have done something evil to achieve their goals. That makes me, you and everyone on earth evil. Vampires are based on mostly folklore and Vlad Dracula, also known as the impaler. He could have been seen as evil, certainly by the Turks at that time but as with any figure of power he had to make decisions that can be seen as evil. He was also a man of great emotion and loved to the point of madness. He would have done anything for his country, even if it meant drowning the world in blood. Same as their model, vampires are neither good nor bad, just different.

 

[Count Krieger von Blutstein]

I have to say, after reading this whole thing, that if people stopped reading after the first couple of pages or so, they would not be very keen to participate in this forum. It would appear that things got a little out of hand, considering we're discussing beings that don't actually exist. I think the culminating point of jerk-ishness was the following:

"Any argument you put forwards I can counter and I will write page upon page without breaking a sweat. You have been weighed,you have been measured and found Ignorant."

I'm not entirely sure who said this, nor do I have any desire to find out or place blame. I only feel it necessary to say that those two lines are simultaneously arrogant in the extreme and incredibly harsh to whoever the recipient was.

And these words were used during a discussion about the morality of plastic monsters? Hold on, wait, what? Please, keep this civil.

Okay, rant done. Back to the subject at hand.

While I do philosophically hold that there is such a thing as Good and Evil, I know that anything temporal has the ability to be used in the service of either. In fact, I would say that our entire existence can be summed up as choice between the two, really.

The way it would appear to me is that Vampirism is more like getting elongated rabies or cancer that messes with your appetite. The disease, if untreated or unchecked, can be harmful to both you and everything around you. But, that said, if it leaves your mental faculties sound, you are responsible for your own actions. You can choose to drain the blood of others by force and by murder, or you can ask the willing to keep you alive (or non-insane with hunger). Or, you can drink from cows. You can respect the remains of the mortal coils of the deceased or animate them for war and desecrate them. Or, even worse, do the yanking-soul-from-afterlife bit, which is most certainly on the evil side, no way around that. It all comes down to your choices.

Personally, I'm glad Warhammer Vampires still have the potential to be decent beings, as my army is actually intended to be a bunch of souls working together who have been betrayed and abused by Necromantic magic. For example, the skeletons are poor souls freed from their drafted service by the vampires running the show. The entire reason they function militarily is to halt the evils that can be brought about by meddling with life and death. It actually makes sense: the dead are still unbreakable because for them, every fight is a war for liberation, and even their destruction is good, it frees them to pursue their eternal rest.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Nerenzade no thing is evil, just their actions and decisions. A vampire is just an ill human who has to drink blood to stay strong. They are still humans, and it is portrayed best in Dracula, the Gary oldman version. According to your reasoning everyone is evil, as everyone in their lives would have done something evil to achieve their goals. That makes me, you and everyone on earth evil. Vampires are based on mostly folklore and Vlad Dracula, also known as the impaler. He could have been seen as evil, certainly by the Turks at that time but as with any figure of power he had to make decisions that can be seen as evil. He was also a man of great emotion and loved to the point of madness. He would have done anything for his country, even if it meant drowning the world in blood. Same as their model, vampires are neither good nor bad, just different.

He did what needed to be done, hell the man is still a national Hero.

I have to say, after reading this whole thing, that if people stopped reading after the first couple of pages or so, they would not be very keen to participate in this forum. It would appear that things got a little out of hand, considering we're discussing beings that don't actually exist. I think the culminating point of jerk-ishness was the following:

"Any argument you put forwards I can counter and I will write page upon page without breaking a sweat. You have been weighed,you have been measured and found Ignorant."

I'm not entirely sure who said this, nor do I have any desire to find out or place blame. I only feel it necessary to say that those two lines are simultaneously arrogant in the extreme and incredibly harsh to whoever the recipient was.

And these words were used during a discussion about the morality of plastic monsters? Hold on, wait, what? Please, keep this civil.

Okay, rant done. Back to the subject at hand.

While I do philosophically hold that there is such a thing as Good and Evil, I know that anything temporal has the ability to be used in the service of either. In fact, I would say that our entire existence can be summed up as choice between the two, really.

The way it would appear to me is that Vampirism is more like getting elongated rabies or cancer that messes with your appetite. The disease, if untreated or unchecked, can be harmful to both you and everything around you. But, that said, if it leaves your mental faculties sound, you are responsible for your own actions. You can choose to drain the blood of others by force and by murder, or you can ask the willing to keep you alive (or non-insane with hunger). Or, you can drink from cows. You can respect the remains of the mortal coils of the deceased or animate them for war and desecrate them. Or, even worse, do the yanking-soul-from-afterlife bit, which is most certainly on the evil side, no way around that. It all comes down to your choices.

Personally, I'm glad Warhammer Vampires still have the potential to be decent beings, as my army is actually intended to be a bunch of souls working together who have been betrayed and abused by Necromantic magic. For example, the skeletons are poor souls freed from their drafted service by the vampires running the show. The entire reason they function militarily is to halt the evils that can be brought about by meddling with life and death. It actually makes sense: the dead are still unbreakable because for them, every fight is a war for liberation, and even their destruction is good, it frees them to pursue their eternal rest.

Thats me and Johnny.
We always get a bit heated on every topic where we don't agree but we both get each others sharp tongue and roll with it mate, don't worry.
Regardless though if it is a hobby we are both passionate about it does not matter if the topic is based in reality or fiction, that really should have no hold on it what so ever.


Very little in the regards to raising the dead relates to the soul as very few things raised have them.
Wraiths, banshee's both do but they are normally around without being raised, WK's to a degree however do and I can understand the thinking behind that being evil if the recipient was unwilling.

The blood of animals in the warhammer realm however does not provide enough nourishment in order to fully feed from it.
It is mentioned a few times else they would have no need to feed from humans and people would not mind them at all.

I also like to have free reign creatively and morally with my forces, very few armies are wholly evil and no thinking race of beings is good or evil.
Dragons, Elves, Men, Dwarfs, Vampires.... They can all be good or evil, their are few exceptions, even Orcs are not evil, they just like to fight.

 

[Bounce]

I have always quite liked in the past during storm of chaos when .gw has set up epic battles between so called evil armies and have perhaps unknowingly saved the civilised world.

 

[Count Vashra]

And I'm trying to create a vampire who is 'good'. Really, it's probably just a matter of perspective, and how far the vampire goes from 'drinking blood to survive' to 'drinking blood because it's tasty'-when necessity turns to desire.

 

[ElectricPaladin]

I like that the vampires are strong anti-heroes. Evil, sure, but not CHAOS evil. They are a very human evil, and in a world of rapacious, hungry monsters and thirsting, inhuman gods, that's practically good.

 

[Count Vashra]

Yes, because when I think of evil in Warhammer, I like to think of Chaos as the measuring stick-are they on Chaos' side? Do they do things that Chaos does? Or at least on the same level? Helps a lot in 40K where all the races are impossible to pin down exactly good or evil (even the good guys have major faults).

 

[Sanai]

Yes, because when I think of evil in Warhammer, I like to think of Chaos as the measuring stick-are they on Chaos' side? Do they do things that Chaos does? Or at least on the same level? Helps a lot in 40K where all the races are impossible to pin down exactly good or evil (even the good guys have major faults).

Actually the actual element of evil is measurable in warhammer. The Dark Elves call it Dhar. Vampires are suffused with Dhar, Dark Magic, the raw stuff of chaos. Their very existence comes from a mixture of Dark Magic and Blood Sacrifice. They are beings of evil.

 

[Shareya]

Vamps don't have to kill when they feed

But they are not good, deffo not x) I mean even Ulrika went pretty freaking dark in the end while she tried to cling to her humanity quite hard.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Vamps don't have to kill when they feed

But they are not good, deffo not x) I mean even Ulrika went pretty freaking dark in the end while she tried to cling to her humanity quite hard.

But there are many vampires who live a peaceful existence or even help others, the point is from a game where war is the background you will not hear about the good deeds of any race but in the novels it a totally different story.
If your entire concept and evaluation of the human race was built up purely on out wars what conclusion would you come to?

Yes, because when I think of evil in Warhammer, I like to think of Chaos as the measuring stick-are they on Chaos' side? Do they do things that Chaos does? Or at least on the same level? Helps a lot in 40K where all the races are impossible to pin down exactly good or evil (even the good guys have major faults).

Actually the actual element of evil is measurable in warhammer. The Dark Elves call it Dhar. Vampires are suffused with Dhar, Dark Magic, the raw stuff of chaos. Their very existence comes from a mixture of Dark Magic and Blood Sacrifice. They are beings of evil.

Now I find that I could not disagree with you more.
Where as they are sustained by Dhar itself no magic is evil, it is a force to be shaped.
The vampires themselves require blood to live but don't need to kill to get it, humans slaughter any who they consider a lesser race to eat and at times even those of the same race.
The Vampires as confirmed in the Liber Necris and Nights Dark Masters are hated by chaos because chaos has no hold on them, it can't mutate them, it can't influence them and it certainly can't control them, they are humans filled with magic and its what they do with this power that dictates who they are, not what they are made of.
The Greatest Monsters can be born in the light, The Witch King being a perfect example.

 

[Sanai]

Dhar is called Dark Magic for a reason. All magic flows from the Realm of Chaos into the mortal world through the shattered polar gates. Magic IS chaos, and chaos IS magic. Wizards cast their spells by drawing on the power of chaos. Elves, Slaan & Men do this safely by drawing on its diluted forms (the lores of magic). High Magic draws on all eight lores/winds of magic, but still in its divided, dilute form.

Raw magic, Dhar, literally the stuff of chaos- it mutates, corrupts, twists and changes whatever it touches. It is literally an evil energy. It is not a neutral tool/weapon- no one changes for the better when they use the Dhar. Even those who try to use it for good eventually turn to evil. (A good example of this is Van Hal. He only wanted to protect people and to contact a lost relative, and within months of those acts he was summoning armies of zombie dragons and trying to destroy the empire)

and in the end, vampires are not immune to the changing power of the Dhar. They might not be touched by the gifts of the gods, but they still mutate and change in ways that fit their drives and obsessions, much like a warrior of chaos does. The Strigoi, Vargheists, Necrarchs, Varghulfs, etc show plenty of evidence of that. They are simply beyond the specific reach of the Chaos Powers themselves because they no longer have mortal souls- in a way, Vampires are more akin to Daemons than mortals- both are beings of magic that can be summoned and bound with spells, and repelled with faith.

Sure, Tzeentch cannot lay a clawed talon on a vampire.... but neither can he do the same to a plaguebearer.



A vampire can try to do good, but his mind, body and soul will always be suffused with evil.

 

[Ordo Cruentus]

Yeah. They are just a different flavor of evil.

That is what makes them so compelling.

They are suffused in evil, but have enough personality to do good. But they can never be good. Tragic really. But fun as hell to read about.

 

[Shareya]

I was also going to point out something about that.

Take Lahmians for example. They do not kill when they feed and they tend to display some care for their more valued mortal servants. Heck some have even admitted they feel bad or miss said servants once they are killed or pass on.
However at the same time they wont hesitate or bat even a eyelash when they sacrifice their closest, most dearest servant (or just mortal ally) to save their hide. This is again nicely displayed in the Ulrika book! Granted Ulrika herself felt quite miserable when a few of her maids where killed in quite cruel manner but even that went away as the years passed.

I find curious how vamps are compelled to take care of their childes for a fairly long time and most childes feel very close to their sires. The whole lover or child-parent relationship! Cuddlyness :O:tongue:

 

[Sanai]

They are suffused in evil, but have enough personality to do good. But they can never be good. Tragic really. But fun as hell to read about.

That pretty elegantly sums it up. They can DO good, but they cannot truly BE good.