WHFB - 9th Edition

[Count Vashra]

Well, it would scale better, and mean its not like having insufficient dice to use all your Wizards (to begin with...). It would force decisions about how badly you need that spell, or whether you just conserve your dice. It would also allow LV 4s to regenerate their dice faster (more dice to channel), and cast/stop spells easier, allowing another measure of visible power. The 'must remain stationary' would force decisions, if the Wizard has little/no dice left. +D6 type abilities could instead lower the necessary Channelling roll. Skaven could eat warpstone to do that as well. Dwarf Dispelling? how would that operate?
Downside is, you may get unlucky and be unable to cast ever again. Level 1s would basically be pointless. highly mobile wizards (you never know) would be penalised. just make Channelling work if they move or not.

 

[najo]

Wizards would always get 2d6 for their first spell. So no wizard is useless. You're guaranteed one spell per wizard. Extra power and dispel dice are what are limited.

Another option. All wizards start the game with dice equal to their mastery level. They use those dice for power and dispelling. They restore their dice at the start of their magic phase. Can only dispel with wizards within 24". Dwarves could get a built in army dispell OR give every dwarf unit MR +1. MR adds to casting rolls needed and to ward saves.

 

[crimsonsun]

@Crimson Somebody misses 6th edition. :tongue:

Honestly I miss 4th Edition.. not 6th I preferred 7th to 6th except when I opened my pre-ordered Vampire counts box of new releases plus army book which stayed in the box for the entire of 7th edition as they were simply broken....

I actually feel a change to the 4th edition magic system would solve all your problems. That had big spells, scalable power, total power, drain magic and was not unbalanced to how the system worked.

The changes I suggested above (beyond the amusing ones ) were to reinforce the power of large blocks, especially hordes of core troops but providing them with weaknesses so they do not dominate the game. The increase in rank bonus would be huge to how combat res is worked out and would initially make you think that death stars would be the way to go, but the problem of death stars with those disruption rules means you would struggle to effectively field enough units to stop you getting surrounded and mass charged, which will make your star somewhat redundant.

Back when I had more time for gaming I have seen the most amusing death stars in giant 3 player 30,000 points aside clashes, one of the best was the unit with with 5 Lahmia vampires (1 lord, 2 counts, 2 thralls) and a obsidian amulet carrying wraith (when it used to negate all magic items) for challenges and the banner that made the unit immune to magic except total power, which died to a Dark elf Sorceress lord with a cloak of mists and shadows and the book that allowed you to choose your lore unleashing banishment in the middle of the undead army with total power, which was effectively a Nuke in the middle of the undead host, literally 10,000 points bit the dust with one spell . A more amusing Death star I have seen destroyed was a unit of 24 Kroxigor getting charged by a Khorne lord with the frost blade... A Witch elf Hero with the Flail of Skulls tore though 15 Minotaur's in a couple of rounds, and a Witch Elf Hero on a cold one charging a 5th Edition Slan Lord with the sword of magic weapons dont hurt me and a cloak of mists and shadows so its ethereal losing combat by 1 and fleeing as it was out numbered by a fear causing enemy 1300 points in one model biting the dust....

Anyway what I was trying to say is that I have great memories of Death Stars and their death and while I have run into a army of a chaos champion and about 15 chaos spawn in a 1000 point clash which was horrific for Dark Elves, I do not think it needs changing as much as people shout about on the internet, especially for the fun non competition gamer and I feel this is even more important as Competitions can and will enforce rules anyway so why alter the game to much to avoid a game style.


Thanks for Reading
crimsonsun

 

[Adam_Barrow]

So there's rumor/fear/ragestorm of Unbound making the jump from 40k to Fantasy.

What's your hypothetical Unbound army look like, gents? A Blender backed by a couple Warp Lighting Cannons and a few hunder Slaves for a /real/ Core tarpit maybe? Or an all Ethereal mono VC? There are some hilarious sounding combos there.

 

[Banat]

They need to rethink Steadfast I think. Maintaining steadfast whilst being charged in the flank is silly to me. And units that flee through enemy units are wiped out, or more accurately, depend on their classification. For example, a unit of trolls fleeing through a unit of zombies would actually deal D3 impact hits or something on the zombies, as the trolls are larger.

 

[lord marcus]

As usual, i think the magic phase will get even more complex. otherwise, hero-hammer 2.0 to push sales.

 

[Infernal Skull]

I have a fix for fear that would not be a return to the auto-break of 6th/7th edition, but would be better than what we have now, which is basically a nothing rule that gets forgotten every other combat:

If a unit loses combat to a Fear-causing opponent that outnumbers (or has more ranks than) them, it takes a break test with all applicable modifiers. If the break test is failed, the losing unit breaks as normal. If the unit passes its break test, it suffers a number of wounds equal to the difference in combat resolution scores. No armor save is allowed for these wounds.

So, a unit that loses by 3 points would suffer casualties as 3 models lose their nerve and run off. It's a way to still drive off your opponent through fear, chipping away at them little by little rather than breaking them outright. Sort of like a reverse- Instability.

Other than that, I'd just like to see magic go back to 6th Edition's method of generating power and dispel dice and using bound items. Maybe rather than having a flat "2 dice for the army" it's 1 dice per full thousand points. That would allow it to scale up a little better, but the standard sized games of 2000-2500 would still get 2 dice, plus wizard levels.

Or if it stays as-is, at least let each wizard roll 1 dice per level for their channeling attempt instead of 1 dice period.

 

[najo]

So there's rumor/fear/ragestorm of Unbound making the jump from 40k to Fantasy.

What's your hypothetical Unbound army look like, gents? A Blender backed by a couple Warp Lighting Cannons and a few hunder Slaves for a /real/ Core tarpit maybe? Or an all Ethereal mono VC? There are some hilarious sounding combos there.

I hope they don't go that route. I'm OK with some sort of allying with any other army, but I think we need some structure to our armies. Fantasy loses something when you completely take away the structure of the armies.

 

[Skittelz1981]

They need to rethink Steadfast I think. Maintaining steadfast whilst being charged in the flank is silly to me. And units that flee through enemy units are wiped out, or more accurately, depend on their classification. For example, a unit of trolls fleeing through a unit of zombies would actually deal D3 impact hits or something on the zombies, as the trolls are larger.

and zombies do nothing? 4 trolls fleeing through 40 zombies are gonna kill some zombies for sure, but it should go the other way as well, those 40 zombies are not gonna let trolls run by so easily either.
DT-tests are ridiculous imo, fleeing units should be punished harder for fleeing through enemies.

 

[Banat]

and zombies do nothing? 4 trolls fleeing through 40 zombies are gonna kill some zombies for sure, but it should go the other way as well, those 40 zombies are not gonna let trolls run by so easily either.
DT-tests are ridiculous imo, fleeing units should be punished harder for fleeing through enemies.

lol admittedly the instance i had witnessed earlier that day involved a unit with only 7 or 8 zombies left...

 

[Wolfrahm]

I'm looking for the vampire rule to be like it was. Undead can march as long as they are within 12" of a vampire, not just the lord. Make terror/fear like it used to be in 6th. That's what would make me happier. Oh, and to be able to cast multiple IoN again with the same caster.

 

[najo]

I'm looking for the vampire rule to be like it was. Undead can march as long as they are within 12" of a vampire, not just the lord. Make terror/fear like it used to be in 6th. That's what would make me happier. Oh, and to be able to cast multiple IoN again with the same caster.

I enjoyed those good old days too. Honestly, those very things made us broken in 7th though. If you were to allow them it have to be toned down. How about any unit with a vampire can march. You auto cause fear if you are steadfast. And IoN can be cast as often as you like, but cost goes up by +3 casting value each time.

 

[Infernal Skull]

I'd be happy with the marching as it is if Ghouls were again considered "Alive" and could march on their own. Or even if they add a rule that allows the general's march bubble to increase to 18" on a LT like the Inspiring Presence.

(8th was a relatively solid edition, there are just so many things that don't scale, as though they didn't consider armies larger than 3000 points when writing some of the rules. Which is odd because I know the writers have large armies.)

 

[Wolfrahm]

Yup, that could work and give ghouls a 6+ regen.

 

[Alabaster427]

Being able to march if there was a vampire in the unit would be amazing. I also wish that necromancers didn't suffer from Slain General; I know that at one point, they were not Undead (as late as 7th edition, I think). It just doesn't make sense for a LoV caster to suffer from the general dying, especially since he could be the one holding the army together after that... Especially now with End Times that every army can take a "necromancer" that is alive... Skeletons, as is, should also be cheaper.

 

[Patrunkenphat7]

I am thinking they might make ranged mar machines like cannons and grudge throwers less effective against characters on large mounts like dragons and the like. I get this tingling feeling that GW wants to push sales of all their mounted character kits since they have been less than competitive for a while now, and that would be the best way to do it.

 

[HERO]

I actually wrote something about this today, here.

I'll sum it up though:

Here is what I want to see in 9th;

• Allies is definitely the most probable from what I see right now. I'm not sure how the rules are going to be for WHFB, but you will definitely be able to take different components from other army books. Whether or not this will resemble Undead Legions or not, I don't know. All I know is that it's the most reliable change.
• Simpler rules for movement, as seen in Kings of War. You will still have the core fantasy mechanics, but more streamlined movement rules will reduce the amount of clutter you have for funky movement issues while preserving battlefield tactics and maneuver war.
• Magic needs to be looked at to be not as killy. There's just too many kill spells in the current edition of the game and it's not fun for anyone, in fact, it's quite frustrating. I think spells like Dwellers, Mindrazor, Final Transmutation, and other spells of that sort will be reduced in power.
• They might limit the amount of PD wizards can cast again; so instead of 6-dicing spells in hopes of getting IF, they might bring back the older system where wizards can only cast with max dice equal to their power level +1.
• Perhaps a change to Steadfast, making it so more things are able to disrupt ranks from the flank or rear. The current playstyle of Steadfast just makes the game turn into a grind fest instead of letting of letting you outplay your opponents via maneuver.
• Cannons and Stonethrowers will also need to be reduced in effectiveness if larger, more expensive models are to be played. I'm anticipating maybe a scatter or damage reduction for the cannons, but I can't be so sure. All I know is that if these things don't change, all those centerpiece models GW is selling right now will be collecting dust real soon.

 

[Banat]

Laser guided cannon and steadfast would be the priorities for me in those lists.

 

[Infernal Skull]

Steadfast has really got to change. I think that's the #1 rule that makes cavalry ineffective. Maybe something between outnumbering and Steadfast? Like "More ranks gets a +1 CR." Getting the +1 still gives you a bonus for having large units but is a huge step back from essentially becoming unbreakable.

And the problem I'm noticing with cannons is that it's too difficult to kill them with shooting. Even templates just ignore the crew and put the to-wound roll on the high Toughness machine. If you had a chance to pick off the crew it would make them slightly more killable.

 

[najo]

I actually wrote something about this today, here.

I'll sum it up though:

Here is what I want to see in 9th;

• Allies is definitely the most probable from what I see right now. I'm not sure how the rules are going to be for WHFB, but you will definitely be able to take different components from other army books. Whether or not this will resemble Undead Legions or not, I don't know. All I know is that it's the most reliable change.
• Simpler rules for movement, as seen in Kings of War. You will still have the core fantasy mechanics, but more streamlined movement rules will reduce the amount of clutter you have for funky movement issues while preserving battlefield tactics and maneuver war.
• Magic needs to be looked at to be not as killy. There's just too many kill spells in the current edition of the game and it's not fun for anyone, in fact, it's quite frustrating. I think spells like Dwellers, Mindrazor, Final Transmutation, and other spells of that sort will be reduced in power.
• They might limit the amount of PD wizards can cast again; so instead of 6-dicing spells in hopes of getting IF, they might bring back the older system where wizards can only cast with max dice equal to their power level +1.
• Perhaps a change to Steadfast, making it so more things are able to disrupt ranks from the flank or rear. The current playstyle of Steadfast just makes the game turn into a grind fest instead of letting of letting you outplay your opponents via maneuver.
• Cannons and Stonethrowers will also need to be reduced in effectiveness if larger, more expensive models are to be played. I'm anticipating maybe a scatter or damage reduction for the cannons, but I can't be so sure. All I know is that if these things don't change, all those centerpiece models GW is selling right now will be collecting dust real soon.

Good observations Hero. I read your blog post too and agree with you on what GW is doing. This is exciting and brilliant for them to do.

I would like to add some of my own thoughts to your points.

• Allies: I agree allies need to happen. I don't want to see unbound though. I like something a bit more interesting that tells the story. Interestingly, a contact I have at GW told me they have no intention to redo the hardbound books in the foreseeable future. So this means that they intend to get all the hardbound books out for fantasy before 9th hits. Then after that, who knows. But it does mean there is a good chance the current factions will still exist in some form even after 9th does come out and we will still be using the current army books after it releases at least in the beginning. Its unlikely we will see a 6th Ravening Hordes approach.
• Movement: I think we might even see simpler movement rules than KoW. Something as easy as move the unit up to its Mv value and then face it. Marching could be move double your Mv straight ahead. Reform would be face any direction in place and change ranks. Charge would be declare the unit in sight you are charging, then make a move then roll 2d6 and move straight ahead and close the door. I think they are going to try and get regiments moving as close to monsters and chariots as they can.
• Magic Spells: I agree completely that magic needs to be less killy and more supportive. Shadow magic should be about illusions and deception, instead it is the greatest war magic in the game. Nuke spells need to be restrained a bit.
• Power Dice: If we return to number of dice you can use is based on your level, we just go back to 6th and 7th magic. So, I'm not sure that is the solution. It might be better to base the miscast table off the number of dice you roll and allow miscasts to occur separately from IF. That way you run the risk of failing a spell or having a miscast by rolling tons of dice.
• Steadfast: Although something like Steadfast needs to be in the game, its too good right now. The suggestion that disrupted units lose steadfast is good. The other option is a unit with steadfast doesn't grant Combat Result for the wounds it sustains. That way charging, flanking and such could cause them to be shifted and possibly broken, but until their numbers come down, casualties don't matter.
• Cannons: They need a solution for cannons that doesn't remove pre-measuring but makes them less reliable. Scattering is weird. Maybe these units place their hit marker, roll BS shooting and if they succeed they finish shooting as current rules, if they fail then the shot scatters first.

Any rate, I'm excited and nervous to see where 9th goes. I've been playing WFB since 3rd ed and 8th is the most solid rules set so far, but it created a number of barriers to entry for new players that have to be solved. Hopefully GW can refine the system and keep its deep, tactical game play while creating a more streamlined and easier game for new players to get in to.

 

[Sception]

I mostly just hope they don't go to the current 40k system for spellcasting, which renders the casting of any spells at all extremely difficult.

 

[John Rainbow]

I mostly just hope they don't go to the current 40k system for spellcasting, which renders the casting of any spells at all extremely difficult.

QFT although I tend to think it also makes dispelling extremely difficult.

 

[Infernal Skull]

Steadfast: Although something like Steadfast needs to be in the game, its too good right now. The suggestion that disrupted units lose steadfast is good. The other option is a unit with steadfast doesn't grant Combat Result for the wounds it sustains. That way charging, flanking and such could cause them to be shifted and possibly broken, but until their numbers come down, casualties don't matter.

If the casualties inflicted on a Steadfast unit don't count toward CR, then a Steadfast unit will never lose a combat, which is kinda better than being "Steadfast Stubborn." Any Steadfast unit has equal or higher rank bonus than its opponent. Presumably, both units have a standard. So casualties are the only thing to help sway the combat in favor of the other unit. Charging, Downhill, and Flanking bonuses notwithstanding; the rules need to work for a straight-up fight--

Imagine 35 Night Goblins fighting 20 Dwarf Hammerers plus two characters (22 models total), both 5-wide. Dwarfs charge them and inflict 10 casualties. Goblins inflict 2. Equal rank bonus, & standards, and the Dwarfs' casualties don't count because the Goblins have one more rank, so the Goblins win by 1. Now imagine how that will impact cavalry charging infantry.

 

[Blutsauger]

QFT although I tend to think it also makes dispelling extremely difficult.

This is true, but given that previously dispelling was actually impossible (Deny the Witch only came in in the last edition) I think it's fair to make it extremely difficult.

 

[John Rainbow]

This is true, but given that previously dispelling was actually impossible (Deny the Witch only came in in the last edition) I think it's fair to make it extremely difficult.

Good point.

I don't see why they didn't implement a straight up copy of the WFB magic rules. They work pretty darn well and both allow for random luck and tactical play with the phase. I think it is certainly one (of the many) area(s) where WFB is better designed than 40k.

Making the magic phase such as it is in 40k at least in my mind creates a huge problem in that it encourages psychic choir builds which are more rock/paper/scissors in their matchups and deathstar style play where the game becomes much more matchup dependent. It also encourages others to leave psychic powers out of their list completely in the interest of points efficiency and thus, they don't even take part in the phase.