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Which Books Are Needed Most?

Melle

Sir Larpsalot, champion of larpers
True Blood
Joined
Apr 7, 2012
Messages
1,154
#26
hehe
i love this vid. you are watching Everything, except the road ;)
 

Tomfoolery

Grave Guard
Joined
Apr 5, 2013
Messages
264
#27
They'll probably give a huge war engine to Dwarves, retool the runes, drop some point costs and I can continue to cross my fingers for Big Horn Sheep cav.

Dwarves need some work.
 

Tomfoolery

Grave Guard
Joined
Apr 5, 2013
Messages
264
#30
Johnny-Crass said:
Tom I love your avatar Poe is the bees knees man
Adam_Barrow said:
Poe + Lovecraft = Perfection

Not to derail but I have a pretty substantial collection of those two. Poes "The Raven" (1906?) illustrated by Gustav Dore (who I also collect), Almost a complete run of Lovecrafts "The Conservative" which is awesome. All of Poes collected works and the baby of my treasure trove a decent grade February 1926 copy of Weird Tales featuring the original printing of Call of Cthulhu. I sold my second child for it.

I actually have this portrait of Poe hanging in my office right next to one of my book shelves. Last year at a New Years party one of my friends says "We all want to know man. Why do have a picture of John Wilkes Booth hanging in your office?". No doubt they are sheeple because of my other love being firearms and shooting stuff at ranges outside of normal vision...

LoL, idiots. I facepalmed.

Beastmen need love also imo. Skirmishers jacks them almost as hard as WE AND they're probably going to lose Dragon Ogres. The Jabberwocky is cool and if someone ever fields a tulgey wood I'll probably shake a bit considering Vorpal Sowrds aren't on our magic items list. Other then that there isn't much to fear in a Beastmen list of any kind. Literally everything in that army has a effective counter available for every other armies core choices....

they need tuned up. While I always lament any army getting the nerf bat it is all avoidable if GW did a better job play testing which would keep everyone from getting "dumbed down" every couple of years just for a new FoTM to appear.

WEs ran our local games for years. I can count on one hand how many games I have won against WE players and for a long time every list I played was solid, no cookie cutters. It probably made me a better player honestly, I like unbalanced armies.
 

Johnny-Crass

Vampire Ancient
True Blood
Joined
Jan 25, 2012
Messages
6,640
#31
Beastmen no longer skirmish and we have not had Dragon Ogres in a very long time. We got a book at the last days of 7th ed
 

Tomfoolery

Grave Guard
Joined
Apr 5, 2013
Messages
264
#32
Johnny-Crass said:
Beastmen no longer skirmish and we have not had Dragon Ogres in a very long time. We got a book at the last days of 7th ed
LoL, shows how long I've been out of the game :slapface:. My bud ran a list of huge flanks of skirmishing Ungors, hard to work through since once they had been engaged in CC his general and other chariots immediately recharged the previous unit which engaged the Ungors. Very hitty, very effective. Couldn't tell you the list specifics. Meanwhile the rest of the army just ran boomshot up the field. I hated Beastmen.
 

Mr. West

Lahmian Tomb Guard
Joined
Mar 26, 2013
Messages
243
#33
As for the original intent of the thread ...

High Elves are next in line, we all know that.
Personally, I'm under the impression that either Dark Elves, Dwarves or Lizardmen might be next.
Dark Elves would make sense insofar as if they'd be going to introduce USRs that all elven armies would share, then work might have started on DE around the same time it did on HE. But I'm not seeing WE anytime soon, even if there were shared USRs, which is a pitty, since I know several people who'd absolutely go for a new WE book / army.
Dwarves, well ... some rumours have been circulating, but I severely doubt the short ones will be next.
Lizardmen, dunno, might be eventualy.
But my bet's on DE I think.
 
Joined
Apr 11, 2012
Messages
162
#34
Books I think need a revamp most (in descending order).

-Wood Elves, for all the reasons mentioned. They can be good but you are starting at such a disadvantage. Many of their choices are also very sub par to the point they are not used at all. They have a few units that are viable, and all army lists are some combination of those units. It is rare to see some of the units (glade riders) simply because taking them puts you so far down the power curve you are trying to NOT lose rather than trying to win. Also, have you SEEN the lore of Athel Loren?!?! It's greatest claim to fame is it is the only remaining lore that allows charges in the magic phase. Other than that, it is a pretty crappy lore.

-Dwarfs: they are boring to face and while they are decent, they need some spice. Every army is very similar, and all dwarf lists castle. I tried running an aggressive dwarf list and it became painfully apparent WHY everyone castles with them. Some play style diversity would be nice, which I think would come through in an 8th ed book with GWs penchant to nerf warmachines (and at the same time create OP chariot cannons... I'm expecting a blimp on a monster base carrying a flame cannon).

-Bretonnians: they are a VERY good army but they are too vanilla. You get crap infantry on foot or you get knights on horses, or knight squires on horses, or more important knights on horses, or other knights on horses, or knights on pegasii. Oh, or trebuchets. Their armies look FANTASTIC when well done but that is based on the skills of the painter rather than the actual army composition. Some unique choices would be fun.

-Skaven: Honestly, I can't imagine a more insane army. Slaves being LD 10 re rollable stubborn for 100 pts and then blowing up/preventing overrun when you finally DO break steadfast is way OP. On top of that, they can shoot their amazing warmachines into combats when you are fighting slaves. Combine that with an insane rare selection and skaven I think set the standard of cheese in 8th ed. I'd rather face DE any day. At least DE require some semblance of player skill. Skaven, mostly, can win by pushing masses of rats across the table and hoping your warmachines and trinkets (like the rocket) roll well. Oh, and the dreaded 13th is such a stupid spell, but I feel that way about all "6-dice for the win!" spells.
 

Yorga

Vampire Count
True Blood
Joined
Apr 7, 2011
Messages
1,850
#35
Gatti said:
-Skaven: Honestly, I can't imagine a more insane army. Slaves being LD 10 re rollable stubborn for 100 pts and then blowing up/preventing overrun when you finally DO break steadfast is way OP. On top of that, they can shoot their amazing warmachines into combats when you are fighting slaves. Combine that with an insane rare selection and skaven I think set the standard of cheese in 8th ed. I'd rather face DE any day. At least DE require some semblance of player skill. Skaven, mostly, can win by pushing masses of rats across the table and hoping your warmachines and trinkets (like the rocket) roll well. Oh, and the dreaded 13th is such a stupid spell, but I feel that way about all "6-dice for the win!" spells.
Man, I am seriously doing something wrong with Skaven. I don't win with them. Yeah it is great blowing up and preventing overrun but so what? Not like I have something that can then deliver the hammer's blow to your high toughness or high armor saving troops. Skaven Doomrocket? WLC? Like you say Gatti, you gotta hope to roll well. Some of the most random warmachines in the game. :rolleyes:

HPAs? Yeah if you can keep them alive in the new "Everyone has chariot Cannons" enviroment. Plague Monks? No good without a Furnace. See comment about chariot cannons.

We have a couple players who make the skaven thing work. But that is their main army that they play all the time and they use a hell of a lot of skill to get the job done. In my small club there are 3 of us that play Skaven. None of us have steller win/loss records.

Gatti: I think you missed the army that needs a re-write the worst. LIZARDMEN! Freaking unkillable Slanns with their utter dominance of magic and point denial skink filth. :slapface: THEY need a re-write the most.

Woodelves...? I don't don't know why but something tells me that GW will let them go the way of the Chaos Dwarves or Dogs of War armies. Sad really, because they have a lot of fluffy flavor.
 
Joined
Apr 11, 2012
Messages
162
#36
^ In all fairness, this could be colored by the fact that most of my games vs skaven have been using high elves, which is a pretty terrible match up for HE (T3 no armor across the board--WLCs even at S2 can drop 10 models, and who cares if monks are S3 vs that?).

Plus, as you say the trinkets need to work, but if they do its hard for skaven to lose the game. That is part of my point. I don't like armies that are so randomly powerful that you may as well flip a coin before the game starts so we can skip it and go grab a beer. I have beaten skaven with HE, but generally this was due to their warmachines and their doomrocket missing (though skitterleap makes the rocket really hard to miss completely with).

I was not saying that skaven should always win. What I was saying is that if the rolls go well, there is almost nothing your opponent can do. If it goes badly, however, there is almost nothing the skaven player can do. I don't find that to be a fun game of warhammer. So for that, I think they need a rewrite.

Another point is that skaven have a ton of really powerful tools that need to be compensated for, because it they aren't, you have no shot. On top of that, other unit entries are so lacking (rat ogres being the prime example) that forces competitive players into very similar lists.

And I am not sure how much traction you are going to get trying to argue that skaven are not OP. They aren't unbeatable, no. But no army is unbeatable. However, are you trying to argue that they are not one of the top 4 books? I think they are.

Lizards, I agree also need a rewrite, but rumors point to them being next after HE (so July or August 2013 release), so I ignored them for this. But I agree they could use a new book to. Such a boring army book, lizardmen.
 

Abhorash.

Grave Guard
Joined
Apr 28, 2009
Messages
282
#37
Narenzade said:
TL;DR

Because they're too stronk -
Lizards, Dark Elves and Skaven

Because they blow -
Brets, Wood Elves and Dwarves

All in approximately that order.
Dwarfs do not blow whatsoever. I hate to be the "corrector" guy but my Dwarfs hardly lose a fight; You can tailor some of the nastiest lists with: multiple grudge throwers, cannons, organ guns; Anvil of doom with a crap ton of thunderers and a couple giant hordes of GW dwarf warriors with some tough as steel thanes and Lords. I actually think if played correctly Dwarfs can be one of the strongest armies out there. Pretty much go gunline backed up by some of the toughest blocks of warriors in Warhammer.
 

Yorga

Vampire Count
True Blood
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Messages
1,850
#38
Gatti said:
However, are you trying to argue that they are not one of the top 4 books? I think they are.

Lizards, I agree also need a rewrite, but rumors point to them being next after HE (so July or August 2013 release), so I ignored them for this. But I agree they could use a new book to. Such a boring army book, lizardmen.
Yes. That is my position. Ogres, WoC, Lizards, Dark Elves are all more powerful than Skaven in this current meta. Especially with the ruling on Pit of Shades and Dwellers on things like the Furnace and Bell. With the plethora of Monstrous Cav units now, The Dread 13th is no longer a game winner. My current WoC list has not one unit that can be effected by the Dread 13th.
 
Joined
Aug 21, 2011
Messages
60
#39
Gatti said:
Plus, as you say the trinkets need to work, but if they do its hard for skaven to lose the game. That is part of my point. I don't like armies that are so randomly powerful that you may as well flip a coin before the game starts so we can skip it and go grab a beer.
I think this is the problem with Skaven too. They have a plethora of I WIN-buttons which almost certainly win you the game if they activate properly. If they don't activate, then the Skaven player has a problem. HOWEVER: the Skaven have so many of these buttons that they can continuously press them until one goes off correctly and they win. During this time, they have to make sure to survive, but that's the easiest thing to do for them, just using Slaves all the time to hold you up indefinitely (Really, their Ld10 Steadfast re-rollable thing is insane and clearly not what they intended (I speak for myself) as I don't think they wanted lowly sewer rats to be the bravest and most stalwart race in the game). That's not to say they can't lose of course, but it is quite easy to make them over-the-top.

On to the more interesting book problem:

I think the book that needs an update most is the Wood Elves. Now that's not just because I play them (OK, maybe :redface: ) but they really just need an update. The thing is, that they don't need new models (maybe some new Treekin and new units, but the Elves and Dryads look awesome), but they need a rules fix. They are still extremely viable as I have found, and there are several builds that work well, and even themed armies do alright (I've tried all Elves for example, and won most of my games).
The problem is just that there are so many units which aren't really usable. The cavalry are great for avoidance games and not-losing but won't win you much. The Wardancers are too expensive and fragile. The Treekin may be the best Monstrous Infantry in the game for their stats, but they cost a lot and have a hard counter in Flaming Attacks which every army now brings. Eternal Guard just aren't worth it except if you go the "Deathstar" route (I'm reluctant to say this word with WE) but even then they aren't great (S3, T3). Also the Warhawk Riders for example, so many things wrong with them (similar to the Glade Riders), the Waywatchers and Wizards are too expensive, and I could go on...
That's not to say there aren't good units though. The Glade Guard en masse are incredibly powerful for example, and the reason why most people think 8th edition has shafted Wood Elves is because they want to play with the 8th edition boys and bring hordes of ranked infantry. Wood Elves just can't do this, plain and simple. They can, however, excell at guerilla warfare and shooting battles (except vs Warmachines, again, that needs a fix).
So overall, the Wood Elves just need many of their units to become viable again (and maybe some new units too) so that the playstyle diversity can change up a bit.

Sorry for the ramble there. xD

After Wood Elves, I'd say GW needs to update Lizardmen and Dark Elves, simply because their magic system is overpowered for a race that isn't fully reliant on it (unlike Tomb Kings, for example) and their magic items are crazy. Skaven have to be fixed in this magic items department too (and the Ld issue). But, somewhere in between or maybe after, I feel they should release the Bretonnian and Dwarf army books (in that order) since they really deserve a new book after all these years (I know the feeling as a long time TK player), and could use some playstyle diversity badly.

After thinking about it though, maybe they should do LM and DE first (breaking the game), then WE, Brets and Dwarfs (for more diversity) and lastly Skaven (breaking the game too, but not as drastically maybe?).

EDIT: By the way, the currently rumoured order of releases is as follows: HE, LM, DE, Dwarfs, WHFB 9th Edition, WE. I don't know if there's a sign of Brets/Skaven yet... Of course, this is probably just speculated too. At least I hope WE will get some rules adapted to 9th Edition if they do get released after it.

Sorry for the wall of text by the way, I hope its lisible :rolleyes:
 
Joined
Jun 13, 2012
Messages
35
#40
Personally I don't think that the Dark Elf book is that overpowered anymore.
In my experience they actually struggle against a lot of things that require high S (1+ spam, Ogres).
Yes, they have Mindrazor against that.. but only that.
 

xFallenx

Grave Guard
Joined
Nov 15, 2012
Messages
201
#41
I personally like the idea/rumour that each book will in future get a release inside of a new edition. There are quite a few rumours running around about what will be released when. If GW commits to this new paradigm shift (2013 obviously as 2012 looks pretty spotty) of releasing an AB every 2/3 months we could very well see an update of all 15 books inside of a given Edition.

(*WARNING*: Heavy Dose of speculation/daydreaming ahead) I'm of the mind that the 8th edition, while not perfect, is the best (not having played through a majority of the editions, so my opinion is just that) one to date. So with a little luck 9th won't drop for quite some time & instead we'll see more supplements & campaigns to spice things up. Each new campaign/supplement would give GW the opportunity to drop new kits or campaign/supplement units for each army... or I could continue day dreaming...
 
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