End Times: Archaon

[Demian]

Greetings fellow Undead.

Apologies for intruding in any sort of discussion you were having, but I had questions of my own:

I've read the campaign book and found out it was very lacking in some stories, stories that I was quite interested (Vlad, Isabella, Neferata... all our "good" guys). But I am not here to rant, rather, to clarify somethings I would have wanted to know:

1. Was the novel released at the same time that ET:A was released?
- I believe I saw a novel published around February 24th that was something like "Everchosen" or the like. Does that mean we had insight to this final End Times book all along since then? how come we are so stricken by the finale with so much information in advance?

2. In (whatever) the novel that narrates Abhorash's, Isabella's, Neferata's tie-ups, can anyone point me to where I could read more? It would be nice to read from the source itself, but I'd also welcome any insight you can provide that you want to share, I love those stories, and I'd love to know their "finale"

Aside from that, I'd also like to contribute something from my own:

• This book should be renamed: "How to blame Mannfred for everything... part 1 of 26" (seriously, if you think about it, though brilliant as he is, he is also not very... "mighty" as opposed to Vlad, who is awesome).
• The World has ended. That doesn't mean all the characters did as well. I'm not going to start a discussion about this, I would just like to point out that "being swalloed by Chaos" in a very inconvenient way doesn't necesarilly mean you die (Kaldor Draigo, anywone? Also Araloth...). However, as Malekith's existance is "terminated" as he screams (this is all from the campaign book... I can't speak for the novel), it could be hinted that no one could have survived that. Anyhow, just as the book hints slimest of hopes, we can also hope that many could have been spared, and may rebuild our armies for the "new world", however they got there.
• If you read the Congress of Incarnates part, the "bubblehammer" theory we've all heard about is hinted and "dismissed" altogether, perhaps as some kind of a joke? or maybe the source of "bublehammer-theory" read that part and believed it the grand rebirth, who knows!?
• Last, but not least, I did like the Storm of Magic reference/cameo in this last book. Grimgor DID headbutt Archaon and DID beat him strength-wise. They just decided that was not a fitting end for the Lord of the End Times, but he kinda owned his great moment !

That's all, I hope I don't cause any inconvenience, and well... I'll still be here to discuss strategy and such

 

[Alabaster427]

I think the Neferata/Abhorash side plots were from a book that was never published, but had outlines or maybe a rough draft then got cancelled due to End TImes.

 

[Sception]

You don't want everchosen, unless you specifically want more about archaon himself, and sime of the last minute minor retcons to his history and character.

The book you want is 'Lord of the End Times'.

 

[Ol'timer]

Sadly we are not the heros or the ultimate bad guys of the warhammer world. As stated above, it's always been good over chaos. Even in the early days, the slannesh were left there to watch over the world, maintain the gateways and wait for the return of the old ones. But gate collapsed, no return, chaos flooded the poles. The slannesh and the first made,( the elves and dwarfs) might have been strong enough to hold it back but we all know what happened there. This is the history given clear back in the late 80's.

I think what really is pissing off some people is that we like it when our heros get killed with a Big Bang, they attack inpossable odds, only to die by there wounds as a true hero. We hate it when writers just add in a lousy death to finish up a story. End times kinda pulls a men in black type ending, showing the warhammer world as just one marble in the game. But there's always more marbles.

 

[LordTobiothan]

The one thing I detest about the end times campaign is there was no campaign. There was no epic fight, there were no battles to survive. It was a world of people trying to kill each other because they were all going to die anyway.

In the grand scheme of things Archaon was pointless, resurrecting nagash was pointless, Teclis spent a bunch of time turning ants into slightly bigger ants and so many are fooled into calling those ants giants.

Archaon literally must have thought to himself "hmm I could use this new swell of chaos power to march on those heathen mortals! And when we win, um uhh... I'll... uh... hey gods?"

Random chaos god: Yes chosen one?
Archaon: what do we do once we've won?
Chaos god: oh doesn't matter, we almost forgot you were a thing, your planets set for demolition next Thursday.
Archaon: um... so should we fight?
Chaos god: yeah go for it, whatever.

Next Thursday

Chaos god: so you guys want to go bowling or something?
Other chaos gods: yeah why not, nothing interesting happened this week anyway.

End warhammer setting.

 

[Demian]

You don't want everchosen, unless you specifically want more about archaon himself, and sime of the last minute minor retcons to his history and character.

The book you want is 'Lord of the End Times'.

Ah! Yes, that's it! Thank you!

 

[Undying Scourge]

Yes Tobiothan, it was all pointless wasn't it? Even buying the miniatures seems pointless now to me, since they've all been devoured by chaos anyway. There was no tension, if the Chaos Gods were so powerful that they could have just done what they wanted, what the hell was the point of it all? Pitiful.

 

[Sception]

That is highly inaccurate, Toby. The world didn't end just because chaos wanted it to. Archaon had to get to the center of the empire to access and activate the rift, and the incarnates had the opportunity to fight their way there and stop the rift, provided they could defeate archaon with enough of their number intact. It didn't end on the whim of the gods, there was a campaign, (and some enjoyable looking narrative campaign rules that make other outcomes possible, though the scenarios, as usual, are spotty at best). Chaos would not have gotten anywhere without the daring and skill of its heroes, the incarnates could not have opposed them without their alliamce, and in the end good lost due to Mannfred's petty spite.

The End Times had an end. This doesn't make the events that happened within any more or less pointless than any other end they might have had. 'Oh, good won, just like always, how pointless'. 'Oh, nagash killed everything, how pointless'. 'Oh, everything turned out just like the prophesy from the beginning said, how pointless.'

Sure, everyone dies. So what? Was Hamlet a pointless story because everyone of note dies at the end? The end times are no shakespearean masterpiece, they're trashy fantasy game stories, but their worth isn't in the end, it's in the events that take us there.

Like they say, its not the destination, but the journey that matters.

 

[Dragonet]

I have to say, on reflection I do like the End Times series. I felt from the offset that it was a moneygrab, but perhaps that was the only way the old guard could get End Times past the execs? Although I was put out by Walach's ignominious demise it does add up, and with a little flesh on the bones could make for an epic finale to his story! And as for the rest of the End Times fluff, the more I hear the closer I get to picking up the novels, I get the feeling that the story must flow better than the campaign book versions which I didn't enjoy to the extent I would have liked. In fairness, the writers were trying to chop an epic novel into sections to serve the most ambitious narrative campaign I think GW have ever written! I love campaigns, I still treasure my copy of Circle Of Blood, a pamphlet by comparison; I think the four battle, more achievable formula appeals to me more because of this, and because neither I nor my mates would go the distance on a campaign of this scale, kudos to those that are doing so!

My verdict would be great effort, glad they sent off the game with a massive bang, but shame on GW for billing these releases as rules mods without stating that the game was going down in a blaze of glory. They limited the release because of lack of confidence in the brand? Worried about uptake by the existing player base? Then why not let us know this would be the last chance to buy into the product with a high production value project that combines biggest campaign ever, release of unique campaign models and a hefty set of novels that detail the end of our fantasy world? I guarantee it wouldn't have even slowed sales by a minute on such a limited release. For me they've lost my trust for leading me along with the tagline 'the Warhammer World will never be the same again', bit like that Spulk 3rd Edition 'limited edition' faux pas, but ultimately I will say thank you to GW for maintaining their integrity and giving the game a decent send-off instead of taking the more callous, profit-driven line of releasing the models in an escalation campaign similar to Warmachine and gradually dropping less profitable units to bring the game in line with their corporate directives. At least I can draw a line under my direct involvement with GW in good company.

 

[Sception]

Even the novels are a bit shakey and rushed, trying as they are yo wrap up a sprawling, conboluted setting that until recently was not really ever intended to have an end. And the writing is the sort of mixed bag we've come to expect from black library. And a lot of events are pretty forced, with key players and groups acting out of character - just not our team for the most part.

I don't mean yo talk it up as amazing. But it is about as hood as could reasonably be expected, and while it never got quite back to the quality of the first part, it did finish much stronger than it looked like it was going to.

As for campaign books vs novels, where the novels add stuff it's appreciated. Where they change things, the campaign books are generally better. This is especially noticeable in glotkin, which as a lot of details different between novel and campaign nook, and the latter version of events is almost always the superior one. That said, none of the novels are hatvhet jobs that just ruin the events depicted, the way, say, the pandorax novel did.

 

[LordTobiothan]

That is highly inaccurate, Toby. The world didn't end just because chaos wanted it to. Archaon had to get to the center of the empire to access and activate the rift, and the incarnates had the opportunity to fight their way there and stop the rift, provided they could defeate archaon with enough of their number intact. It didn't end on the whim of the gods, there was a campaign, (and some enjoyable looking narrative campaign rules that make other outcomes possible, though the scenarios, as usual, are spotty at best). Chaos would not have gotten anywhere without the daring and skill of its heroes, the incarnates could not have opposed them without their alliamce, and in the end good lost due to Mannfred's petty spite.

The End Times had an end. This doesn't make the events that happened within any more or less pointless than any other end they might have had. 'Oh, good won, just like always, how pointless'. 'Oh, nagash killed everything, how pointless'. 'Oh, everything turned out just like the prophesy from the beginning said, how pointless.'

Sure, everyone dies. So what? Was Hamlet a pointless story because everyone of note dies at the end? The end times are no shakespearean masterpiece, they're trashy fantasy game stories, but their worth isn't in the end, it's in the events that take us there.

Like they say, its not the destination, but the journey that matters.

The chaos gods can insert themselves anywhere and can make Archaon strong enough to fight all incarnates while hog tied. And even if he somehow lost the gods could make archaon 2.0 and 3.0 in that instant and win anyway.

The rifts started to open because the chaos gods said so. With or without Archaon that's what happens. If Archaon was unable to defend it. They open the things again.

GW made beings that pick their teeth with universes, are abhorently evil and have no equal. I knew how warhammers story would end, I just personally don't like the "superman threw it into the sun" ending.

 

[Shareya]

About Neferata and some other characters . . . There were supposed to be many short story books to wrap up some things, but sadly they never got made due to a lack of time.

I will also note that the author(s) have no idea what so ever what will come next. GW is keeping everything very hushed! Now this I actually see as a bad sign, it does mean they don't have any of the real authors working on books to slap us with once we know what comes next for Warhammer Fantasy.

Once more I will also say that I don't think End Times was all bad and I fully accept that GW had to do this. Whatever comes next will likely toss in a system that allows people to get into the hobby for more cheaply at first. So we can only hope, eh?

BUT! I still fear and strongly believe we are going to see a massive amount of lore butchery. I think we are going to see one (perhaps two) factions for good humans, one faction for bad humans, one faction for united Elves and one faction for undead (forget bloodlines even in fluff ). There might be other races, but much will be smushed together to make things easier for GW to handle! It's almost depressing to think about it.

 

[TheTrans]

Only been into fantasy now for probably 18 months. Dear god this is soul crushing. I know that we can all continue on with 8th, but you'll always have that niggly feeling..like Blood Knights will never get the 2nd wound they need, or the Vampiric rule will never ignore crumble etc...

 

[Sception]

The chaos gods can insert themselves anywhere

They cannot physically enter the world, they need mortal chakmpions to do their work in the material plane. They could not make archaon any physically stronger without making him a daemon, which would make him subject to banishment and limit the time he could exist in the physical plane proportional to the amount of themselves they invested him with.

They could not activate the rift without a mortal champion ther to act for them. That does not happen without archaon. Hell, they gave it their all, and in the end they would have lost but for Mannfred.

 

[Infernal Skull]

Again, we got some of the best treatment of all of the warhammer races in the book. Not sidelined like orcs & ogres, not wiped out like brets and dwarves, not given the idiot ball like elves and humans, not having most of our classic heroes take a back seat to characters that came out of nowhere like chaos warriors.

This, Exactly. All of our characters got mentioned briefly and many played major parts in the story. I'm almost tempted to get the Archaon book just to see Nagash's plot play out. Very satisfied with Undead representation in the ET. Maybe Tomb kings players can be disappointed about Khemri being "erased" from the surface of the world, but since EVERYTHING is gone, it's kind of moot.

The End Times had an end. This doesn't make the events that happened within any more or less pointless than any other end they might have had. 'Oh, good won, just like always, how pointless'. 'Oh, nagash killed everything, how pointless'. 'Oh, everything turned out just like the prophesy from the beginning said, how pointless.'

Yup. I was thinking the same thing. Three possible outcomes:
1. The good guys stop the tide of chaos and everyone complains because they just maintained the status quo.
2. Chaos succeeds and the world ends. People complain because Warhammer is over.
3. Nagash succeeds in stopping Chaos (which was his plan) and kills everyone in the old World. (Unrealistic; that would never happen. It would likely play out as Nagash wins and maintainins the status quo.)

Warhammer has been on the brink of The End Times or IN the End Times since 6th Edition (probably earlier). "The End Times" really isn't anything new, it's just a nice write-up of the events leading to the end of the world. It really couldn't have ended any other way.

Also: Just because the warhammer world's story has an ending, doesn't mean that Warhammer is over as a game. WWII and the US Civil War both ended, but that doesn't prevent anyone from playing games that are set during those times. The history of the Warhammer World spans more time than both wars combined. Warhammer could now be treated as a "historic" game where armies and games are set in whatever time period the players like.

 

[LordTobiothan]

They cannot physically enter the world, they need mortal chakmpions to do their work in the material plane. They could not make archaon any physically stronger without making him a daemon, which would make him subject to banishment and limit the time he could exist in the physical plane proportional to the amount of themselves they invested him with.

They could not activate the rift without a mortal champion ther to act for them. That does not happen without archaon. Hell, they gave it their all, and in the end they would have lost but for Mannfred.

The chaos gods have no limitations on entering the physical world aside from the ones they placed on themselves. The rifts were at both poles of the planet and not even really reachable by man. They didn't NEED a champion, they choose to have them because it is how they have fun.

 

[Demian]

Based on the End Times novels, the Chaos Gods can do a limited amount of things:

When the Elven Pillars (stones?) were destroyed by Teclis, Slaanesh reached forth (his very hand into reality) and snatched many Elven souls into the Realm of Chaos, and it was the intensity of the Winds of Magic blowing so strong that allowed him to do so.

In the Glottkin book, it was the work of Festus that allowed Nurgle to influence the world (with a pestilent rain), where otherwise could not do so.

Other displays of "direct" intervention from the Chaos Gods was only due the winds of magic blowing too strong in the world by the former actions, but they couldn't (ok... perhaps "didn't" but it's all the same) do so before.

Last, but not least, in Archaon, we can (apparently) see the sword of Khorne dissolve Gelt's enchantments when he transmutes Skarr Bloodwrath, or maybe that's just the way to justify their Magic Resistance, but I don't think so, since the sword also took the lives of some humans and dwarves along.


Based on the "official" source, the Chaos Gods can't enter the world directly, just as their servants (who are actually a small part of the main patron god) can only enter the world in a limited fashion, not for long, and the greater the Daemon, the more complicated it is for them to do so. Was. Was to do so. It is all over now, and I'm a little sad =(

 

[LordTobiothan]

@Demian Yes but in the chaos gods own fluff, all of those limitations are manifested by themselves. If they just went down to mess shit up it would be over so quickly, so they made rules about intervening in order to extend the fun.

 

[Demian]

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? D:

...
...
...
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so all this time I've been able to punch Nurgle in the brain for taking Isabella from Vlad...?

( well... it could be like... get 24 6's to Hit and twice that amount to wound in a single roll... but I COULD!)

 

[Undying Scourge]

Which is exactly why the whole setting was really crap from the very beginning if you think about it. Or at least that's how the End Times makes it seem, now.

 

[Adam_Barrow]

Which is exactly why the whole setting was really crap from the very beginning if you think about it. Or at least that's how the End Times makes it seem, now.

Not gunna lie... That was pretty much my rant after Lost ended. It turns out that show sucked the whole time.

But then I chose to remember all those Wednesdays pilling all my friends around a tv, rushing outside during commercials for smoke breaks, posting fake spoilers on people's facebooks if they couldn't make it to the showing. "Jack died, Nelson. Dat Smoke Monster done et him up."

The Afterparty Police don't get to retcon any fun you had with something. This ain't Orwell. If anything, it's Huxley, but at least his pawns were having a good time.

 

[Emicrania]

For how much I love to be right ( TOLD YAAAAA WAS GONNA SUCK!! ) I don't think is a bad end, is probably the bravest thing GW have done ever, problem is they rushed for sell a couple of book more and made one trashy rule after another just to motivate the sells of the leftover they had over the years. Which they had because of the worst marketing ever basically.
Still they get the " I'll be back" final that we all hoped (and deeply inside knew It) to have.
What you want more?
I wonder what to do next aswell but if this is as good is gonna gets I can keep on collecting,painting and playn with my friends 8th ed. (As long the Chinese recaster will be around )

 

[Alabaster427]

I was just thinking that although Isabella was never really useful to VC, she does give Chaos access to Lore of Vampires... I don't remember her wizard level as the accursed, but that could be really bad.

 

[Demian]

She is a lvl 3 Wizard, just like Vlad. She gets super-powered to a Vampire Lord status, plus a "Chaos" gift to make her have better Ini and... weapon skill, I think.

Also, she cannot choose to alternate her spells from the two lores she knows, (like all Mortarchs can), but must choose either Nurgle's or Vampire's, as I remember.

And Isabella was usefull to VC!! She would make a fine proxy for Vampire Ladies !

 

[najo]

I don't think we've seen the last of a number of characters or plot lines. Many races and characters escaped from the world before it was destroyed. Skavenblight was hinted at being moved. Elves left with Araloth. Nagash is bound to the underworld, so he could be reborn. Any of the daemons and chaos champions who are ascended to daemonhood would survive. Sigmar and the incarnates likely survived.

I think we need to wait and see still. Warhammer may have just become Warhammer-star Galactica.