Legions of Nagash

[Sception]

the tournament scene saw the tomb Kings nerfed long ago with "test points" that became their actual points. Then they got nerfed again when their resurrection spells and synergies were removed.

That wasn't "long ago", the compendium update and new points only happened this past summer. The tomb kings points updates were previewed before that, but not all tournaments used them, and even in those that did Ruler of the Night and red fury still anchored viable lists, and even the tomb kings points hikes weren't unreasonable bad until they were compounded by rules nerfs in the compendium update.

Again, it feels like a the distant memories of a lost age, especially with the quickfire release schedule, but in terms of actual rules development it was practically yesterday. If, instead of Malign Portents now, we had seen a mini campaign set in Ulgu to introduce Morathi, with the Shyish campaign and Legions of Nagash delayed six months to make room, then I think the rules in Legions of Nagash would be much different, a reaction to our post-GH17 mechanical doldrums. But as it is, this book was probably written before those doldrums even started, and is still a hot-touch reflex reaction to our previous strengths.

 

[Sception]

Afaik, the scroll itself wasnt posted, but details of the stormcast herald were (that it buffs order war machines) which effectively confirms the herald leaks. Which in turn effecively confirm that the rest of the death leaks are real, sunce they have the same revised wording for ethereal. The death leaks still might have been non-final playtest versions, though, as it would be odd for the KoS to lack deathly invocation considering that spirit hosts are supposedly summonable.

Who knows. Final confirmation one way or the other won't be long now. The books only two weeks out, and is supposed to get another preview article on warhammer community tomorrow.

 

[Unas the slayer]

That wasn't "long ago", the compendium update and new points only happened this past summer. The tomb kings points updates were previewed before that, but not all tournaments used them, and even in those that did Ruler of the Night and red fury still anchored viable lists, and even the tomb kings points hikes weren't unreasonable bad until they were compounded by rules nerfs in the compendium update.

Again, it feels like a the distant memories of a lost age, especially with the quickfire release schedule, but in terms of actual rules development it was practically yesterday. If, instead of Malign Portents now, we had seen a mini campaign set in Ulgu to introduce Morathi, with the Shyish campaign and Legions of Nagash delayed six months to make room, then I think the rules in Legions of Nagash would be much different, a reaction to our post-GH17 mechanical doldrums. But as it is, this book was probably written before those doldrums even started, and is still a hot-touch reflex reaction to our previous strengths.

It's not wrong, however if there was the need for a nerf, this was aleady done with the GHB2017. It's not that the GHB and this new battletome are written by different companies. What's this, a case of "the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing"?

And anyway, If lamentations by people at tournament should be the meter to set the nerfbat, i would really like to see something done against Tzeentch. I doubt I will.

 

[Alabaster427]

And anyway, If lamentations by people at tournament should be the meter to set the nerfbat, i would really like to see something done against Tzeentch. I doubt I will.

Tzzentch took five of the top ten and they all had basically the same lists, whereas both Death and Destruction weren't even in the top ten. That kind of imbalance doesn't last. GHB 17 needed them some, but obviously not enough to make a difference. I'll bet they'll get needed again before Daughters of Khaine are released.

PS. Phone auto-corrects Khaine to Losing. Lol

 

[Alabaster427]

https://www.warhammer-community.com...-host-nagash-new-summoninggw-homepage-post-2/

This basically confirms the leaked warscrolls. The most peculiar thing was a reference to gravesites, up to four being placed on a table (1 per table quarter). Apparently summoned units will no longer pop up within range of the caster but within range of a gravesite. It looks like a similar affect to the new Nurgle trees but they didn't go into much detail. The gravesites will also heal summonable units, just like the characters do. I'm still not 100% sure on how summoning is going to work, but it seems like its going to be a lot better than it is now.

I like grave guard being battleline, maybe they'll even be a little cheaper? They're slightly worse than vulkite berzerkers yet twice the cost.

At the very end, they mention that there will be two Death lores to choose spells from and Nagash will be able to use both, but they'll go into more detail tomorrow.

 

[Unas the slayer]

Well, at least it seems promising... I cannot wait to have this battletome in my hands

 

[El Syf]

Nerd rage aborted! Quite relieved actually, two spell lores sounds good as well. Is this a first?

 

[Alabaster427]

Nerd rage aborted! Quite relieved actually, two spell lores sounds good as well. Is this a first?

I think Tzeentch has two lores.

 

[Sception]

My concerns about the new summoning system have been largely alleviated by this preview. While the gravesites won't alleviate the character dependence of the system, they do mitigate it enough that I feel it should be workable. All the other stuff shown or previewed looks nice too.

I'm still a little upset that in a meta overdominated by mortal wound spam (though to be fair that can be largely laid at the feet of the faction that took fully half of the top 10 spots at LVO), we've seen mortal wound protections on some of our characters reduced (necromancer, black axe king).

Regardless, Overall I've shifted to a much more positive disposition, and even took some of my stuff out of storage, making a pile of the models that are closest to being ready:

Spoiler

Based on the Legion of Sacrament preview tomorrow, I'll select a smallish list from the above pile to work on getting painted.

 

[Alabaster427]

I've got 4 morghasts with halberds and I have two new ones to assemble. I'm not sure if I should stick with the halberds or have some swords. But now I have to wait for the book to come out to decide. I'm also going to wait on the mortarch option. Though I am excited to bust out the grave guard again. I wonder if the new banners will stack with each other. That would be brutal.

 

[Sception]

the banners are not worded to stack. They do stack with the morghast aura. And the screaming skull catapult penalty, but the catapult is a lot more expensive than it used to be, and needs to actually cause wounds to take effect, so probably isn't worth bothering with.

 

[Alabaster427]

the banners are not worded to stack. They do stack with the morghast aura. And the screaming skull catapult penalty, but the catapult is a lot more expensive than it used to be, and needs to actually cause wounds to take effect, so probably isn't worth bothering with.

I'm guessing there will be an artefact similar to the grim garland to modify leadership further. Leadership is the current Tzeentch lists' biggest weakness. You only have to kill a single skyfire to force a battleshock test and reducing it further is just that much better. Not to mention every other faction outside daemons (Order or chaos). I think think the gravesites is the biggest relief I have, closely followed by the two spell lores. I am eager to start playing the new rules. However, the next tournament is on release day, so I'll to have to fight it out one more time.

 

[Menkeroth]

I think Tzeentch has two lores.

Indeed he has, for quite a time actually

 

[Alabaster427]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/01/31/legions-nagash-legion-sacrament/

So the two lores are Deathmages and the return of the lore of Vampires. Some of the tools we are getting have the potential to be especially devastating, such as turning a slain enemy unit into a unit that you've previously lost, potentially for free; or the black gem, which slays a single model from a unit on a 6+. Against a horde, that is useless, but against a giant monster/character, such as Archaon, could be well worth it, and since it's an artefact and not a spell, there is no way to negate it.

The wristsbands will be a really nice counter to the current skyfire spam.

It looks like the mortarchs legion abilities will also be in this book.

 

[Cataphract]

Interesting times.

This also confirms Arkhan for Deathmages.

It looks like Neferata's Legion tomorrow will be Soulblight/Vampire focused.

Which leaves me to wonder what Mannfred's will be? As Mortarch of Shadow he could be Nighthaunt based?

 

[Alabaster427]

Interesting times.

This also confirms Arkhan for Deathmages.

It looks like Neferata's Legion tomorrow will be Soulblight/Vampire focused.

Which leaves me to wonder what Mannfred's will be? As Mortarch of Shadow he could be Nighthaunt based?

If Arkhan isn't for deathrattle then Mannfred likely will be.

 

[El Syf]

So much good news, the warscrolls that were previewed if correct fit a lot better with everything we've ha since and seem quite reasonable really. I mean there's little things like morghasts and blood knights having a better save that would be good but so far GW have come up smelling of roses for me.

 

[Unas the slayer]

This new battletome seems like a lake in the desert. Finally.
I think we are going to develope a lot of new strategies.

 

[Sception]

The bringing a unit back thing isn't free. The matched play rules makes clear that you'd have to pay full price. And nobody is going to hold the full price of a unit in reserve on the hopes of using an ability that might trigger once in a blue moon. In matched play, as written, this is a dead ability.

Even without it, sacrament could still be decent, with bonuses to cast, more spells known, some decent artefacts, and from the sound of it a solid caster formation for arkhan, who's command ability significantly improves the previewed spells.

I'll have a hard time choosing between sacrament and grand host.

Also note that the preview was revised shortly after it went up, and the double cast for death lore spells is on an unmodified 9+ to cast. Boosts to casting rolls don't make double casts more likely. Which is disappointing, but the other way probably would have been too good.

 

[Alabaster427]

The bringing a unit back thing isn't free. The matched play rules makes clear that you'd have to pay full price. And nobody is going to hold the full price of a unit in reserve on the hopes of using an ability that might trigger once in a blue moon. In matched play, as written, this is a dead ability.

The only reason I think it might be free is that all of the other summoning abilities currently bring a NEW unit onto the table that is ADDED to your army. This rule specifically says it brings back a unit that was already removed. So it's not a new unit and there's no reason that you should pay twice for the same unit.

There's a similar ability in 40k that allows a previously perished unit to return to the table and I'm pretty sure you don't have to pay for it.

 

[Sception]

And the matched play rules make clear that reserve points must be paid if new units are added to the battle OR if destroyed units are returned to the battle. Bringing back destroyed units is explicitly covered. You have to pay full price. It's why the ring of immortality was effectively dead for so long.

 

[Unas the slayer]

WHo knows? I'll wait to read the rule and see if it's specified that it is for free.

 

[Cataphract]

If Arkhan isn't for deathrattle then Mannfred likely will be.

Tuesday's confirmed that Nagash buffs Deathrattle, he gives them +1 attacks and what not.

 

[Sception]

Well, I mean, they all have access to everything, their legion bonuses just affect different things. Arkhan's legion boosts wizards - both deathmage and vampire. Though it doesn't boost all death wizards, so Tomb Kings and FEC are left in the cold. The natural troopers to pair this with is zombies, since the corpse cart buffs both them and the wizards you're already taking, and cheap zombies leaves more points for casters, but you could just as easily run them with skeletons which, while pricier, get more benefit out of vanhels and deathly invocations. Nagash's allegiance makes grave guard battleline, buffs summoning regen slightly, buffs morghasts, and has several artefacts and command traits that buff deathrattle, but I'm sure it also has more generic traits and artefacts, so you could certainly run Nagash, Morghasts, minimal zombies for battleline, and skip deathrattle altogether.

Mostly I'm hoping that either a couple more units become battleline by default (maybe spirit hosts?) or else that each and every allegiance has some battleline of its own, because right now legions of nagash only has two options by default, if you don't count FEC or TK, neither of which play well with these rules.

 

[Cataphract]

Right right. Nagash's so far seem to be the only one to boost Deathrattle.

I am curious if Neferata's will be the only one to boost Vampire or if Mannfred will boost Vampires as well. Neferata doing so makes sense as she is the Mother of all Vampires.

EDIT
Just saw a FB rumor that they will be rebooting Zombies and Morghasts next week...?