- Feb 12, 2008
- 27,732
Ouch! Talk about being shot down……:(
Well I liked my idea anyway….spoilsports xd I suppose I can understand that it is perhaps a bit too much for a basic spell. Uziel suggested we make the Disciple of Nagash into a special character, which my ego has nodded vigorously in agreement to. Perhaps we could incorporate the possession I suggested into that in some fashion, as I personally still want Nagash present in some fashion other than some distant influence. It is one of the key points for me. If we can compromise this being viable on a special character, I would be willing to concede it under the magic.
Books
Good to see we have agreement on this xd
So onto the plethora of ideas from Uziel xd
Incantation of Reaping
Fluff will need to change xd Other than that I quite like this spell, simple and effective. I would also be quite happy to have it as the signature spell, providing that the Lore Attribute changes to include Possession somehow, as that is a very unique spell.
Will of Nagash
I’ll be honest, I don’t think this works well. Even with channeling, this attribute will hardly ever go off which just weakens the Lore. Especially as the player has no choice in this (with it not being a spell) I just don’t see it working. Plus it seems a meh for direct involvement from Nagash anyway. So I say nay to this one. Personally for the attribute I suggest a reworking to make it more effective as here:
Eyes of the Dark Lord – Lore Attribute
Fluff
At the start of the Legion of Nagash magic phase, any users of this Lore may choose to possess any infantry or cavalry model with the Undead of Nagash special rule within 18” by taking a leadership test. If successful the caster counts as being stood at the targets position for the remainder of the magic phase for the purpose of casting spells. In addition, should the caster suffer a miscast whilst successfully possessing another model, do not role on the miscast table. Instead the possessed model suffers a result of ?? from the miscast table and the caster is forced back into their own body and may not cast for the remainder of this magic phase.
Amplification of Immortal Alacrity
Interesting idea, though I am not sure in the scheme of things how much +2 to WS / I is really going to add. Especially on the basic troops, most of the time it is just going to maybe bring them upto par with average troops, in some cases still won’t match. The higher level version with the ASF and +1A is good, but I think the base version needs a bit more personally.
I would prefer that the base adds in ASF (with the reforms / change of tactics) and the higher range being a radius and/or substantially increasing the Initiative to a point where re-rolls become likely. Depending on the casting level the extra attack may be still possible.
The premise of the idea is good (and needed), I think compared to other spells out there it just needs a bit more oomph.
Awakening the Revenants
So yes for the concept, we can use this to replace the Curse of Reanimation. (In regards to the Revenants, please note nothing is set yet. A new core thread will be started shortly, however discussions still need to take place. Therefore for the time being we should assume this spell relates to some kind of zombie, and the exact unit will be finalised at a later date).
However the implementation is unwieldy certainly. It could possibly be overpowered, especially in larger games. Cast at a higher level you could end up with doubling your army in one spell, especially if you had a lot of Nagashi units to start off with. How to do it without it being too complicated is awkward, however I think we need to look at:
Nagashi – certainly keeping track of your own troops should be feasible, and the number of Nagashi in the army shouldn’t be too high.
After that, however about something along the lines of D3 per enemy units under half strength / D6 per enemy units wiped out?
The sum of those should be easier and more limited, based on that we may want to adjust the roll to resurrect to maybe 4+.
The Immortal Legion
I think we need to look at how this affects non- We Are Legion! units. Unless we are going to have quite a few, we are lacking in raising power. I agreed with the higher level for the WAL! units, if they are used right they should not have characters and will need the extra boost. However for those who are not WAL! I think it should be D6 plus the casters level.
As for the second level I really like the regeneration idea, however I think we should also have a second level of healing for units that are badly damaged. So 3D6 + casters level for WAL! units / 2D6 + casters level for non-WAL! units. An increase in range would be ok as well, with maybe an increase in casting value to 15+
So reworded looks something like:
The Immortal Legion is an augment spell, that targets a friendly unit with the Undead of Nagash special rule within 12".
Unit’s with the We Are Legion special rule regains a number of models equal to 2D6 + the caster's Wizards level for Infantry, or just the caster's Wizard level in the case of all other unit types. Unit’s without the We Are Legion! special rule regains a number of models equal to 1D6 + the caster's Wizards level for Infantry, or half the caster's Wizard level in the case of all other unit types This can never take the unit beyond its starting size, nor can any model have its wounds increased beyond the number of wounds on its profile.
Wounds are regained in (insert something similar as the "Resurrecting Fallen Warriors" from the VC book).
The Wizard may cast the spell at 15+ which adds 1D6 when rolling the number of wounds for infantry or +1 wound to the total for other unit types. Alternatively, if a unit is at full strength already, the Wizard may grant it the Regeneration special rule, with the Remain in Play property.
Other than that, I like the flexibility. The Lore of Nagash is meant to be more “useful” so I see no issue having some redundancy in there.
Finally, onto Rituals.
So firstly, I think we must have the rule that there is a requirement for certain characters to be present, so priests etc. Secondly, what are Acolytes? I don’t recall these anywhere? Do you mean just someone with the Nagashi special rule? Also Necromancers? They are not in the army anyway?
I don’t want them tying to the books, I think they should be tied to a character. However they should be scalable, i.e in big armies you should be able to do more. I agree that the sacrifices should “pay” for the rituals somehow.
I suggest we have a couple of different “levels”. By that something along the lines of:
Ritual A: Requires one priest etc to “cast”
Ritual B: Requires two priests working in concert to “cast” would be more potent / kills more Nagashi
Otherwise you either have a ritual that OP in smaller games or is useless at higher levels. This way as the army grows, the priests can work together to pull off better results (sacrificing more Nagashi in the process).
As for the ritual ideas:
Doom of Quatar
Like the idea (I think the fluff needs to be inline with the old spells, as in read from the unholy book). However the results are not worth it. One wound per unit, possibly? Plus it might not equal the number of Nagashi dead? I could loose 12 Nagashi and kill some skaven slaves? I know there is always a risk element, but this is too much in favour of the enemy for me. I would prefer something like:
The LoN player may sacrifice 1D6 / 2D6 / 3D6 models with the Nagashi special rule. The total number of wounds rolled may then be allocated by the LoN player to enemy units, maximum of one per unit. The affected unit takes one automatic wound, no armour saves allowed. If there are more wounds than units, any excess wounds are wasted.
Shroud of Locusts
Looks good, quite like this one. Situational but worth it against the right armies. Could possibly have other players screaming OP at use if the -1 last for four turns mind you xd
The Reaping Sacrifice
Again, not sure if this is worth the downsizes. The chance of “maybe” getting one PD for a number of kills, plus cannot move etc. I don’t think this is one that works personally.
I suggest we complete the Lore of Nagash and also agree on the structure for the Rituals, before we then look at possible Rituals themselves.
Well I liked my idea anyway….spoilsports xd I suppose I can understand that it is perhaps a bit too much for a basic spell. Uziel suggested we make the Disciple of Nagash into a special character, which my ego has nodded vigorously in agreement to. Perhaps we could incorporate the possession I suggested into that in some fashion, as I personally still want Nagash present in some fashion other than some distant influence. It is one of the key points for me. If we can compromise this being viable on a special character, I would be willing to concede it under the magic.
Books
Good to see we have agreement on this xd
So onto the plethora of ideas from Uziel xd
Incantation of Reaping
Fluff will need to change xd Other than that I quite like this spell, simple and effective. I would also be quite happy to have it as the signature spell, providing that the Lore Attribute changes to include Possession somehow, as that is a very unique spell.
Will of Nagash
I’ll be honest, I don’t think this works well. Even with channeling, this attribute will hardly ever go off which just weakens the Lore. Especially as the player has no choice in this (with it not being a spell) I just don’t see it working. Plus it seems a meh for direct involvement from Nagash anyway. So I say nay to this one. Personally for the attribute I suggest a reworking to make it more effective as here:
Eyes of the Dark Lord – Lore Attribute
Fluff
At the start of the Legion of Nagash magic phase, any users of this Lore may choose to possess any infantry or cavalry model with the Undead of Nagash special rule within 18” by taking a leadership test. If successful the caster counts as being stood at the targets position for the remainder of the magic phase for the purpose of casting spells. In addition, should the caster suffer a miscast whilst successfully possessing another model, do not role on the miscast table. Instead the possessed model suffers a result of ?? from the miscast table and the caster is forced back into their own body and may not cast for the remainder of this magic phase.
Amplification of Immortal Alacrity
Interesting idea, though I am not sure in the scheme of things how much +2 to WS / I is really going to add. Especially on the basic troops, most of the time it is just going to maybe bring them upto par with average troops, in some cases still won’t match. The higher level version with the ASF and +1A is good, but I think the base version needs a bit more personally.
I would prefer that the base adds in ASF (with the reforms / change of tactics) and the higher range being a radius and/or substantially increasing the Initiative to a point where re-rolls become likely. Depending on the casting level the extra attack may be still possible.
The premise of the idea is good (and needed), I think compared to other spells out there it just needs a bit more oomph.
Awakening the Revenants
So yes for the concept, we can use this to replace the Curse of Reanimation. (In regards to the Revenants, please note nothing is set yet. A new core thread will be started shortly, however discussions still need to take place. Therefore for the time being we should assume this spell relates to some kind of zombie, and the exact unit will be finalised at a later date).
However the implementation is unwieldy certainly. It could possibly be overpowered, especially in larger games. Cast at a higher level you could end up with doubling your army in one spell, especially if you had a lot of Nagashi units to start off with. How to do it without it being too complicated is awkward, however I think we need to look at:
Nagashi – certainly keeping track of your own troops should be feasible, and the number of Nagashi in the army shouldn’t be too high.
After that, however about something along the lines of D3 per enemy units under half strength / D6 per enemy units wiped out?
The sum of those should be easier and more limited, based on that we may want to adjust the roll to resurrect to maybe 4+.
The Immortal Legion
I think we need to look at how this affects non- We Are Legion! units. Unless we are going to have quite a few, we are lacking in raising power. I agreed with the higher level for the WAL! units, if they are used right they should not have characters and will need the extra boost. However for those who are not WAL! I think it should be D6 plus the casters level.
As for the second level I really like the regeneration idea, however I think we should also have a second level of healing for units that are badly damaged. So 3D6 + casters level for WAL! units / 2D6 + casters level for non-WAL! units. An increase in range would be ok as well, with maybe an increase in casting value to 15+
So reworded looks something like:
The Immortal Legion is an augment spell, that targets a friendly unit with the Undead of Nagash special rule within 12".
Unit’s with the We Are Legion special rule regains a number of models equal to 2D6 + the caster's Wizards level for Infantry, or just the caster's Wizard level in the case of all other unit types. Unit’s without the We Are Legion! special rule regains a number of models equal to 1D6 + the caster's Wizards level for Infantry, or half the caster's Wizard level in the case of all other unit types This can never take the unit beyond its starting size, nor can any model have its wounds increased beyond the number of wounds on its profile.
Wounds are regained in (insert something similar as the "Resurrecting Fallen Warriors" from the VC book).
The Wizard may cast the spell at 15+ which adds 1D6 when rolling the number of wounds for infantry or +1 wound to the total for other unit types. Alternatively, if a unit is at full strength already, the Wizard may grant it the Regeneration special rule, with the Remain in Play property.
Other than that, I like the flexibility. The Lore of Nagash is meant to be more “useful” so I see no issue having some redundancy in there.
Finally, onto Rituals.
So firstly, I think we must have the rule that there is a requirement for certain characters to be present, so priests etc. Secondly, what are Acolytes? I don’t recall these anywhere? Do you mean just someone with the Nagashi special rule? Also Necromancers? They are not in the army anyway?
I don’t want them tying to the books, I think they should be tied to a character. However they should be scalable, i.e in big armies you should be able to do more. I agree that the sacrifices should “pay” for the rituals somehow.
I suggest we have a couple of different “levels”. By that something along the lines of:
Ritual A: Requires one priest etc to “cast”
Ritual B: Requires two priests working in concert to “cast” would be more potent / kills more Nagashi
Otherwise you either have a ritual that OP in smaller games or is useless at higher levels. This way as the army grows, the priests can work together to pull off better results (sacrificing more Nagashi in the process).
As for the ritual ideas:
Doom of Quatar
Like the idea (I think the fluff needs to be inline with the old spells, as in read from the unholy book). However the results are not worth it. One wound per unit, possibly? Plus it might not equal the number of Nagashi dead? I could loose 12 Nagashi and kill some skaven slaves? I know there is always a risk element, but this is too much in favour of the enemy for me. I would prefer something like:
The LoN player may sacrifice 1D6 / 2D6 / 3D6 models with the Nagashi special rule. The total number of wounds rolled may then be allocated by the LoN player to enemy units, maximum of one per unit. The affected unit takes one automatic wound, no armour saves allowed. If there are more wounds than units, any excess wounds are wasted.
Shroud of Locusts
Looks good, quite like this one. Situational but worth it against the right armies. Could possibly have other players screaming OP at use if the -1 last for four turns mind you xd
The Reaping Sacrifice
Again, not sure if this is worth the downsizes. The chance of “maybe” getting one PD for a number of kills, plus cannot move etc. I don’t think this is one that works personally.
I suggest we complete the Lore of Nagash and also agree on the structure for the Rituals, before we then look at possible Rituals themselves.