Rule clarification for Black coach

[vonkrolok]

At the start of each Magic phase, the casting player determines the strength of the Winds of Magic by rolling 2D6

If you don't do this there is no magic phase altogether

Rolling the Winds of Magic is not optional. Rolling the Winds of Magic happens at the start of the magic phase. I don't see what your point is?

Aramoro

You just proved it what my point is: you intend Magic phase as a compulsory phase? good, then you do what it states in the very first paragraph:

Magic phase starts with both players determining how much magical power can be tapped into this turn [tapped... sure they didn't mean harnessed?:slapface:]

This means that any compulsory effect of any magical unit or item necessarily have to be moved down.
Otherwise, if you want to treat it as an optional phase (which so far it is, it doesn't state anywhere in BRB that the magic phase is compulsory, while it does so for combat... even movement phase is not mandatory, if you stand fast you don't make a use of the movement phase) then you don't roll... goes against your own faction? it's not my problem.

On a slightly different token, I believe that even if you didn't have any magic user or item at all you should have rolled for winds because that gives a measure of how much power my Coach is sucking. This of course is in connection with the fact that magic exists on the battlefield whether you make a use of it or not and the Coach drains power from that very source, not from mages (VC FAQ 1.1 states exactly that by removing the 6" range limit).

 

[bored1]

Lord Fear: While I understand your argument that the first line is not a rule, don't forget that that is not an ironclad argument. Simply look at the FAQ:

Can I choose not to absorb magical energy with the Black Coach’s
Evocation of Death ability?(p47)

They use fluff terminology in the question. This is also why this ruling is somewhat meaningless. It has no real value in the rules. To be clear, GW is not a good rules writing entity. They mix defined and undefined terms at will, abstract mechanics with rulings of intent, and so on and so forth. These arguments will happen, and I don't think, outside of agreed upon consensus, there is a "right" side.

vonkrolok: You're missing the point here. The contention is that multiple things happen at the start of the phase. There is a "sequencing" rule which states that at such times, the active player chooses what happens first.

 

[Aramoro]

Both the Winds of Magic roll and Evocation of Death are compulsary. The fact that you must roll Winds of Magic doesn't change the fact that you Must use Evocation of death.

@Lord Fear, I've made up my mind because those are the rules. At the Start of the Magic Phase is the timing point for the rule to take effect and you have not shown otherwise. Yes common sense dictates that you want for the Winds of Magic to be rolled but we're not discussing common sense here, we're talking RAW. Your intrepretation has no timing when it happens so it never happens. There is a trigger for Evocation of Death, it's the start of the magic phase.

So using your interpretation When does it happen, At the start of the magic phase it does nothing and then? Half way through the magic phase maybe? It's a permisive rules set you can oly do things when they say you can do them. With no trigger you can never do it.

The strict RAW of the sitation is as I have spelt out.

But as i've said it's not the way I play it nor will i ever play it that way.

Aramoro

 

[vonkrolok]

Evocation of death IS compulsory (actually this isn't compulsory either since it says "can" and not "must") winds of magic is NOT because it doesn't say so... Combat IS compulsory (and the VERY only one) by the time you are in BtB contact

 

[Aramoro]

The Winds of Magic roll is compulsory. No where does it say 'You may' you just do it uncontrollably every turn. I still fail to see what your point is.

Aramoro

 

[midean]

I truly cannot believe this thread is going on....:slapface: Seems some just don't wanna stop beating a dead horse. LordFear, myself and a couple others have shown the order of how it goes. According to the rules and how/when they apply. Not even gonna bother posting it again as it does no good to those who insist otherwise and just wanna wack the horse again. Might as well lock the thread as the RAW/order of events does not convince them, nothing will....:grave:

 

[Aramoro]

I am genuinely curious as to a RAW argument which says it works as it should. Both rules trigger at the Start of the Magic Phase so sequencing kicks in. Simple as that.

So far all arguments I've seen to say it happens strictly after the Winds of Magic roll have involved 'Well Obviously' and 'Common sense say' and not actually mentioned any rules.

Aramoro

 

[midean]

I am genuinely curious as to a RAW argument which says it works as it should. Both rules trigger at the Start of the Magic Phase so sequencing kicks in. Simple as that.

So far all arguments I've seen to say it happens strictly after the Winds of Magic roll have involved 'Well Obviously' and 'Common sense say' and not actually mentioned any rules.

Aramoro

Ok...for the last time..at least for me on this thread. Pg 47 VC book. Evocation of death. Quote "Roll the dice in the power pool. Any of these dice that score a 6 are absorbed by the black coach and are discarded." OK..there it is in black and white. For you to roll the dice in the power pool you would have to have rolled for the WoM to create said pool. To follow the rules to do Step (b) roll the dice in the power pool, You have to go to step (a) generate power pool.

 

[Aramoro]

I am genuinely curious as to a RAW argument which says it works as it should. Both rules trigger at the Start of the Magic Phase so sequencing kicks in. Simple as that.

So far all arguments I've seen to say it happens strictly after the Winds of Magic roll have involved 'Well Obviously' and 'Common sense say' and not actually mentioned any rules.

Aramoro

Ok...for the last time..at least for me on this thread. Pg 47 VC book. Evocation of death. Quote "Roll the dice in the power pool. Any of these dice that score a 6 are absorbed by the black coach and are discarded." OK..there it is in black and white. For you to roll the dice in the power pool you would have to have rolled for the WoM to create said pool. To follow the rules to do Step (b) roll the dice in the power pool, You have to go to step (a) generate power pool.

So you're ignoring the trigger point. So when do you do it exactly?

Can you do it at the very end of your magic phase after you've cast all your spells? You have no trigger to use the ability so you may never use it in effect.

Aramoro

 

[bored1]

That's pure interpretation. Not RAW. See the rest of the thread.

 

[Abbysal]

Roll the power dice at the beginning of the magic phase! It's really that simple. "Oh but in what sequence?" some idiots might say, that's simple to,as soon as there's power dice on the bloody table!!

If I ever had the misfortune to play anyone who would stand on the opposite side of a table we had just spent 30 minutes to set up and argue about when the black coach kicks in I would probably shove the largest model in his collection into his fat gob!

My keyboard hasn't worked for the last two days and I've been desperate to say something (even if it is a load of b*ll*cks) on this thread, it's been eating me up bad!

As a side note, can we have a new forum section called the Boxers Ring or Gloves Off or something where we CAN go to rip into each other without any major repercussions as I feel that sometimes we need to be able to call each other *rseholes, especially when it's due.
I saw in another post someone said that you shouldn't say anything to someone online that you wouldn't to their face and I agree. I am not a confrontational person but do feel that I would call someone a d*ck face to face over rule mongering in this fashion!

Please someone think about the Gloves Off idea, I think it would relieve some tension around here!:zombie:

P.s sorry to anyone that I might offend with my rant and barely hidden swear words.

 

[Aramoro]

You waited 2 days to say that? Oh dear.

No one is questioning how it SHOULD work, we're discussing how it DOES work with the rules as printed in the book. If you cannot comprehend that then I think you're in for a lot more impotent rage. Just because you do not like a rule does not make it wrong, nor does it make anyone an idiot.

I am actually trying to be non-confrontational here but you're making it very hard.

Aramoro

 

[bored1]

If I ever had the misfortune to play anyone who would stand on the opposite side of a table we had just spent 30 minutes to set up and argue about when the black coach kicks in I would probably shove the largest model in his collection into his fat gob!

Funny, I'd probably feel very similar when playing you. Playing people who use made up rules always annoys me. It's even worse when the summation of their argument is "because that's how it's supposed to be played!"[/quote]

 

[Grish]

Agreed bored1. Good arguments all around; best solution is to discuss with your opponent how you want to play it. Hopefully it will be resolved in a FAQ but I wouldn't begrudge an opponent who wished my coach to go off before his pool. In a friendly game, odds are you'll both agree the intent is the coach goes off after WoM. Whether after MotBA or after Black Periapt is another matter. In a tournament, let the organizers rule on it. In any case, I don't think it's a big enough deal to argue for any more than 2-3 minutes about. Could have advantages; as when the coach gets powered up it will no longer suck up any dice. Double edged sword (with one edge being sharper than the other, but it's not all bad).

 

[vonkrolok]

[...] Could have advantages; as when the coach gets powered up it will no longer suck up any dice. Double edged sword (with one edge being sharper than the other, but it's not all bad).

Sorry, it doesn't say that it stops, so much so that in the table it says 6+... there is no sharper edge to the sword: Black coach is a misfortune as a fortune to have, more dice you'll generate in the Winds of Magic, more possibility you'll have to suck up more dice (and vice versa of course)... but I do prefer to annihilate my opponents magic phase rather than having a strong one, moreso if the reason I'm destroying my opponents dreams of conquest through magic coincides with me having something almost unbeatable and definitely one of the most aggressive supporting units in the whole Warhammer universe.

As far as I'm concerned regarding the subject, I shall repeat in a more mathematical way (boolean):

I should roll dice from something that is called power pool
question: is there a power pool?
Answers: yes (so there is a magic phase)
no (there is no magic phase)
end of file

 

[Abbysal]

Funny, I'd probably feel very similar when playing you. Playing people who use made up rules always annoys me. It's even worse when the summation of their argument is "because that's how it's supposed to be played!"

[/quote]

Where have I suggested a made up rule? Are you actually stating now that Evocation does go before a PP is made for that magic phase and that anyone that argues otherwise is making things up?:zombie:

 

[Abbysal]

OK, here I go with RAW Rules as Written right? OK.

The Magic phase STARTS with both sides determining how much magical energy can be tapped into this turn. Pg29 The Magic phase.

Note the use of the word STARTS. If you don't roll for WoM the magic phase hasn't STARTED.

Now Evocation. At the START of every magic phase the black coach can absorb magical energy. Roll the dice in the power dice pool.

So sequencing. Rolling 2D6 STARTS the Magic phase, once it has STARTED at the START of the magic phase we roll for Evocation!

Nowhere does it say to START the magic phase by rolling for Evocation. There can be no question as to what sequence these events occur.

That is RAW is it not?:zombie:

 

[Bob the Liche]

Just a side note.

In the main rule book FAQ v1:
Q: If I have a special rule that generates power or dispel dice at the start of the Magic phase, when are those dice added to the pool? (p30)
A: They are added after rolling for the Winds of Magic but before any casting attempts have been made.

If the addition of dice are done after power pool generation then wouldn't the converse be true? If anything it could be used to force a roll off each and every magic phase.

Presuming the loss of dice is done after the power pool generation I could see sequencing still being used to force the Evocation of Death before the addition of power dice such as Master of the Black Arts. Hypothetically speaking of course.

In all seriousness I expect Games Workshop to just mega nerf The Black Coach. Even drop it from the army roster in the VC errata because they are a-holes like that.

 

[Aramoro]

OK, here I go with RAW Rules as Written right? OK.

The Magic phase STARTS with both sides determining how much magical energy can be tapped into this turn. Pg29 The Magic phase.

Note the use of the word STARTS. If you don't roll for WoM the magic phase hasn't STARTED.

Now Evocation. At the START of every magic phase the black coach can absorb magical energy. Roll the dice in the power dice pool.

So sequencing. Rolling 2D6 STARTS the Magic phase, once it has STARTED at the START of the magic phase we roll for Evocation!

Nowhere does it say to START the magic phase by rolling for Evocation. There can be no question as to what sequence these events occur.

That is RAW is it not?:zombie:

Sadly not for RAW you actually have to use the rules, not just what you think they are.

The Magic Phase starts and you do Step 1 which is

At the Start of each Magic phase, the casting player determines the strength of the Winds of Magic by rolling 2D6

So rolling for Winds of Magic happens 'At the Start of the Magic Phase'

Evocation of Death as we all knows says

At the start of every Magic Phase, the Black .....

Nice try though.

Aramoro

 

[Malek]

hi, first post but have been following this thread for a while and heres my two cents

pg. 29 of the brb has a paragraph labbeld 'THE MAGIC PHASE SEQUENCE'
and the second sentence says 'The magic phase starts with both sides determining how much magical power can be tapped into this turn.'

notice how it says 'starts' and not 'at the start'. This means that to have a magic phase you first have to 'start' it. Then anything that happens 'at the start' happens afterwards.

hopefully this holds up to you Aramoro, your putting up a pretty good argument!:|

 

[Aramoro]

Reading through that is the preamble to the rules, giving you and overview of what's about to happen in the Magic Phase but not actually telling you how to do it, it does say how the Winds of Magic are determined. On pg 30 it goes into the detailed rules for the Magic Phase, The first part of Step 1 of the Magic Phase is to Roll the Winds of Magic , as it says at the Start of the Magic Phase.

I didn't really come to put up an argument as such, more to say , 'Heh look at this hilarious rules loophole which will never be used'. But I take exception to being called an idiot so here we are.

Aramoro

 

[Lord Fear]

The Magic Phase starts and you do Step 1 which is

At the Start of each Magic phase, the casting player determines the strength of the Winds of Magic by rolling 2D6

So rolling for Winds of Magic happens 'At the Start of the Magic Phase'

Evocation of Death as we all knows says

At the start of every Magic Phase, the Black .....

Nice try though.

This is interesting for a couple of reasons: note that in the first quote, it says at the start of each magic phase, roll 2D6. In the second quote, it does not say when to roll the dice at all The other interesting thing is that you have intentionally censored the entire quote to avoid giving off that impression. Naughty naughty

(To your earlier question of when would you roll the dice if you aren't told when: the only possible answer would be "whenever they exist")

 

[Aramoro]

I could tediously quote the whole rules but it doesn't change anything, but if you really want I will.

If you intentionally ignore the first sentence of Evocation of Death then you're into homebrew rules so you can go wild, do whatever you like. But what all rules need is a timing slot, a trigger as to when you can use them, they can be a myriad of things like At the start of the turn, anytime during your turn etc etc. Evocation of Death has a timing point, it's 'At the Start of each Magic Phase'. If you ignore that then there's no trigger to activate the rule and you can never use it, it just sits there waiting for a trigger that never happens. You would be absolutely correct if it said 'During the Magic Phase' or 'After forming the Power Pool' or any one of a hundred other things.

Aramoro

 

[Lord Fear]

There's tediously quoting the entire rules, and then there's selective quoting them. Perhaps a middle ground of "quoting the entire relevant rules, while not omitting unfavourable words or punctuation that might give a different impression to the reader"

We can happily disagree on the other points though. You still haven't shown why the first sentence's fluff combined + time directive means that the second sentence's command must happen at the start of the phase, you've only insisted that if the first sentence is removed then that emans you can never do the second. Which I think is a great application of common sense and applaud you for it

It's just a shame that you only feel like applying common sense to tell you that the dice-rolling must happen at the start of the phase, and not for the other facets of the discussion (Such as, dice can only be rolled when they exist, and the start of the magic phase only begins once the winds of magic have already been generated).

 

[Aramoro]

You have not shown at any time that the first sentence of Evocation of Death is not when the rule happens. All rules have a point in which they happen, a trigger as it were. Ignoring the first sentence of Evocation ignore the rules trigger. By your interpretation I could happily use Evocation when ever I want, and without a trigger to limit it, as many times as I want.

There no condition that the pool must have been formed before you apply the rule, only that you roll the dice which are there right now. Which could be none.

I wasn't curtailing the quote to misdirect, the rule has been quoted in full a dozen times in this thread already, I was mearly drawing attention to the relevant section. But just for completeness here it is.

Evocation of Death : At the Start of every Magic Phase, the Black Coach can absorb magical energy. Roll the dice in the Power Pool and those generated for any wizard within 6" of a Black Coach. Any of these dice that score a 6 are absorbed by the Black Coach and are discarded....

What about that rule says it doesn't happen at the start of the Magic Phase? Yes there is a tiny bit of fluff in there for effect but ok lets go with your reading of it.

Evocation of Death : Roll the dice in the Power Pool and those generated for any wizard within 6" of a Black Coach. Any of these dice that score a 6 are absorbed by the Black Coach and are discarded....

When does this happen, How many times can I do it?

Aramoro