Patrunkenphat7 said:
Because an unintended consequence of this rule is that players can deliberately place ONLY their champion in base contact, rendering the rest of the unit immune to harm.
So what good are Vargheists?
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Because an unintended consequence of this rule is that players can deliberately place ONLY their champion in base contact, rendering the rest of the unit immune to harm.
Patrunkenphat7
Grave Guard
Blutsauger said:
Right… But isn't that the entire concept of wound allocation? I mean it's not some obscure workaround with the wording of the rules. It's a simple example of how wound allocation works. Theoretically, what makes this worse than hiding characters in bunkers? All I see is that it's a subjective, emotional response to how wound allocation works with characters in 8th edition. If you subjectively choose certain rules to be considered "glitches" based on either how effective they are or how unfun they are for the opponent, we should probably start a novel of the things we aren't going to allow or things we consider scummy. Out of curiosity, what are your feelings on comp rules like ETC?
^^I will not say anything else about this if everyone thinks it's too off topic
Unfortunately it seems like the conga line and character killing is one of the best uses for Vargheists, so it is pretty central to the discussion of the unit.
Patrunkenphat7 said:
It's not wound allocation that is a glitch. The glitch is that the net result of a conga line formation, coupled with wound allocation, in concert with the monstrous infantry rules and in association with the Vargheist stats results in an entirely unexpected and effective tactic.
That's what a glitch is. A result of the construction of the game that wasn't intended. Like my reference to Flood games in Halo 4 earlier; everyone could jump into that little culvert, and it's not like "jumping" and "hiding" aren't valid tactics in the game. But the designers never intended for that to be the result.
The wound allocation rules in this instance exist only for the preservation of characters. If wounds over-flowed from the champion onto the rest of the unit, then no champion would ever survive the first round of combat. An unintended consequence of this rule is that people can hide their entire unit behind the Champion to protect it. This was not the purpose or predicted use of this rule. It's a glitch.
Fixing conga lines would require a significant re-write of the rules, and frankly it's not a huge problem. It only works on monstrous infantry, and it only really works on units that have the killing power and mobility to get into position. So it's still a dick move with certain other units but it works best with Vargheists. So the effort of completely re-writing the section on wound allocation, ranks, Champions or some combination of the three hardly seems warranted. This should not, however, be interpreted as approval by GW of the use of conga lines.
Apologies for de-railing the thread.
Didn't realize there were so many conga line haters. If i conga lined in a tournament (for many reasons, hell I've conga lined without champs) and someone conceded immediately, firstly I'd ask if he was serious, secondly i'd chuckle inside, take the 20-0 and move up the tables to play against more reasonable opponents.
But great news for those conga line haters... I'll give y'all 3 words that easily deal with them.
Different Initiative Steps.
Come on, it's not bad in the slightest.
But great news for those conga line haters... I'll give y'all 3 words that easily deal with them.
Different Initiative Steps.
Come on, it's not bad in the slightest.
Just had a tournament running 3 with no champ.
Normally did a lovely job getting into flanks turn 2 and war machines turn 2-3.
Worst fail was 3 charging a sabretusk and losing by 1.
Que sera.
Normally did a lovely job getting into flanks turn 2 and war machines turn 2-3.
Worst fail was 3 charging a sabretusk and losing by 1.
Que sera.
Fodderboy said:
You know that Vargheists can stomp tusks? If 3 charge you'll get 2 to make BTB contact, which means that's at least 2 auto S5 hits. So you're saying that the tusk hit twice, wounded twice, then with 8 attacks, no wounds, and no wounds on both stomps?
Jesus that tusk deserved a medal if true
Skittelz1981
Varghulf
RarerMonsters said:
Clear nonsense imo.
Congaline is as valid as a horde attacking with 3 ranks. 3 montrous infantry that are skirmish flyers should be able to congaline if they want. So do hexwraiths and actually everything else.
I the Undead VampireLord magically abide everything in my army to walk the way i want them to do so.... Fluffwise and rulewise congaline is simply how it should be and it works just fine.
No exploitalarms here
The problem with conga lines is when they get tagged by something that does D3 or D6 hits per rank.
Fodderboy said:
Idk if that's how it'll work. Considering you need at least 5 or 3 MI to make a full rank. Does anyone else know how spells that apply to ranks work if you have no complete ranks?
I see the thread has gone in a different direction so here's my $1.05 If conga lines are glitchy then so are my ogres. I run character shields all the time with them and it keeps my RnF safe for at least one combat, if not more. With ogres, they can delete enemy ranks and protect their own. As for Vargs I think it's simply just using the game mechanic to your benefit. Considering ranks and banners will pile up against them anyway they won't last indefinitely against a strong unit.
That being said, a strong unit isn't my destination for Vargs. I use them to clean up flanks and rears of the field. Normally anything that can do a lot of wounds against my other units, especially from a range. Other than that I will occasionally run a unit of 6 to flank other specialty units, like small mobile great weapon units. In a flank they take minimal hits back and can clean up a unit of 10-20 fairly efficiently. 25 attacks with champ, stomps and all before the enemy strikes back (except the stomps) is crippling when they only get 4-8 attacks back (except they will definitely lose 1 rank) so more likely 3-6 attacks back. And they can get the flanks easily.
My final use has been stated before and that is Mage hunting. I like to take 3 or 4 for this job and basically charge them right into the wizards unit head-on. Against some armies this tactic will fail. Against others it's a gamble. But if you can pluck that lvl 4 out its worth it every time. Considering I know this unit will probably die, I make it 2-wide to assure the whole unit gets a whack at the wizard. 13-16 str 5 attacks should wipe the wizard out and then....let em' die. You think conga lines are OP? Flying, unbreakable monstrous infantry with frenzy and strength 5 is OP. Nagash bless these lil buggers
BloodbathMcGrath said:
It's exploiting a game mechanic to your benefit. It's bad form. Don't be that guy.
There's some suspension of disbelief that has to happen to play any simulation. If a move is within the rules of the game, I don't care if it's retarded or no. I would fully expect an opponent to call the game if I wasn't letting him perform legal moves, especially if "but giant bat monsters wouldn't do that in real life." is the argument against it.
Adam_Barrow said:
Whatever blows your hair back, but that doesn't make it any less an exploitation of a loophole in the rules. If you want to be that guy who exploits loopholes in the rules to win games of toy soldiers, then more power to you I guess.
That sounds a bit like you're calling me a cheater because I follow the rules. But the burden of proof is on the accuser, as always. Lemme know when you find out conga lines are illegal moves. Then I'll be happy to concede my error. Otherwise, I'll sleep just fine tonight.
Adam_Barrow said:
Don't be silly. Cheating is breaking the rules. You're just exploiting a loophole, and you're obviously fine with that. Good for you.
There's no denying the futility of a semantics argument, but that's the kind you've made, so I guess I'll call it a night on this one. But thanks for calling my character into question at every turn. Have a pleasant evening.
Sanguinus said:
Would anyone congaline if attacks directed at the Champion flowed over to the rest of the unit?
No. The purpose of the conga line (as it relates to Vargheists) is to ensure only a single model can be killed, and simultaneously ensure that you will receive 7 S5 attacks. It is not a formation designed to receive any tactical advantage except that granted by the interaction between unit champions and incoming attacks.
To whit, it exploits a loophole in the rules. You can call it a legitimate military formation if it helps you sleep at night, but it won't stop it being an exploitation of a loophole.
There's nothing wrong with it. If you're the kind of player who would rather game the system and play the rules, rather than play the game, then more power to you. It's not my cup of tea, and I think it's a bit sad, but who am I to judge? But don't try and tell me it's a legitimate tactic that the writers intended people to use when they created that rule. It's a loophole.
So how about them dire wolf darts then?
Exploit or tactic?
Either way I don't see why congalining is something to get upset about since the rules are already full of weird abstractions.
Ranks are a very unnatural formation to begin with, that's why they take discipline to hold.
Big Alpha monster charging in while the 'regular' monsters snap at the enemy from behind his back. What's so wrong about that picture?
Doing the same thing with a block of 50+ zombies on the other hand is just silly.
Exploit or tactic?
Either way I don't see why congalining is something to get upset about since the rules are already full of weird abstractions.
Ranks are a very unnatural formation to begin with, that's why they take discipline to hold.
Big Alpha monster charging in while the 'regular' monsters snap at the enemy from behind his back. What's so wrong about that picture?
Doing the same thing with a block of 50+ zombies on the other hand is just silly.
Skittelz1981
Varghulf
Congaline is no exploit whatsoever.
Its a genuine, legal formation. No one would complain about congaline if attacks do get through to the second rank. ( i dont even know why attacks do not geth through btw on monstrous inf, i tried looking it up and couldnt find anything. Is the champion blocking attacks to come through or is it monstrous infantry blocking it?)
Anyway, if the truth is that attacks cannot get through to second rank, it would still not be an 'exploit' of the rules.
Rules are you can create any setup for any unit... Congaline just as well, isnt that how you often move fast cavalry?
So congaline isnt the problem, your issue is with the wounds not coming through. Well i dont know where that is written but if it is written than it is still valid to field something in a congaline.
I just dont see the exploiting in this at all. Either GW sux completely at writing (which we all know they kind of do) or it was just meant to be like that.
In any case, there is no exploit since it is both completely valid. If congaline is an exploit than fielding ghouls 7 wide is also an exploit since it is not larger than a normal rank but not a horde but you can get more attacks out of it blablabla.... nonsense.
Congaline is just simply a way to setup your unit and its absolutely in no way an exploit.
Id love to see where it is written about the wounds coz i couldnt find it.
Its a genuine, legal formation. No one would complain about congaline if attacks do get through to the second rank. ( i dont even know why attacks do not geth through btw on monstrous inf, i tried looking it up and couldnt find anything. Is the champion blocking attacks to come through or is it monstrous infantry blocking it?)
Anyway, if the truth is that attacks cannot get through to second rank, it would still not be an 'exploit' of the rules.
Rules are you can create any setup for any unit... Congaline just as well, isnt that how you often move fast cavalry?
So congaline isnt the problem, your issue is with the wounds not coming through. Well i dont know where that is written but if it is written than it is still valid to field something in a congaline.
I just dont see the exploiting in this at all. Either GW sux completely at writing (which we all know they kind of do) or it was just meant to be like that.
In any case, there is no exploit since it is both completely valid. If congaline is an exploit than fielding ghouls 7 wide is also an exploit since it is not larger than a normal rank but not a horde but you can get more attacks out of it blablabla.... nonsense.
Congaline is just simply a way to setup your unit and its absolutely in no way an exploit.
Id love to see where it is written about the wounds coz i couldnt find it.
@skittelz Under the Unit Champion rules. He has a different profile than r&f dudes, so it works like having to allocate wounds on characters.
Skittelz1981
Varghulf
well then... obviously as intended or just plain bad writing.
if it was the latter, an errata or faq wouldve come out. this has not happened, therefore we can conclude that this is not an exploit but simply how the 8th edition is intended and that:
1 - congaline is allowed and valid.
2 - a champion in a congaline blocks attacks towards the unit and that is just simply how it works.
If you find it bad sport, glitchy, unethical or whatever reason you try to come up with not to do it. Then you are just making up your own rules.
Same as somekind of ETC-rule stating that you cannot take Red Fury with Quickblood.....
if it was the latter, an errata or faq wouldve come out. this has not happened, therefore we can conclude that this is not an exploit but simply how the 8th edition is intended and that:
1 - congaline is allowed and valid.
2 - a champion in a congaline blocks attacks towards the unit and that is just simply how it works.
If you find it bad sport, glitchy, unethical or whatever reason you try to come up with not to do it. Then you are just making up your own rules.
Same as somekind of ETC-rule stating that you cannot take Red Fury with Quickblood.....
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