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Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Hi Doombunny.

Glad to see your interested in the Legion, any input is appreciated.

However how it works is that each thread is for discussing one aspect / unit. For example this thread is to discuss the Dreadlord special characters only. You can however post in the other threads any comments about the ideas there.

Ok, I have now added the Executioner & Innocence to the first post, with the updates from peoples comments. What do people think?
 

doombunny666

Black Knight
Aug 8, 2009
397
UK
sorry didnt realise i had gone to a new thread while where on the subject of dreadlors however what about vashanesh the vampire who forged the original "von carstien" ring not the same one vlad had a much more powerful one would they be under dreadlords or would that be an entirely new character

btw i think that a special rule that if you field all the dreadlords in the same army something good should happenlike a magic boost or something anyway not really important but fun for legendary battles also have you considered having units of bodyguards or sacraficial slaves-much like dark elves sacraficial dagger +1 to casting for every soldier sacraficed
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Ok, no comments on them, so I'll move onto the Guilt. A very difficult one as I am unsure on how to do it without making her invulnerable

The Guilt (Hero Choice)

M 4 / WS 4 / BS 4 / S 4 / T 4 / W 2 / I 4 / A 3 / Ld 9

Equipment
Full Plate
Two Hand Weapons

Special Rules

Undead

Untouchable
Seemingly weak compared to the other Dreadlord's, the Guilt is a deadly foe as she is almost unstoppable. Every blow, attack or spell is rebounded at the attacker with doubled fury, ensuring that they are not alive to try again
Every attack, spell or ability used on the Guilt is rebounded on the model / unit which inflicted it on a roll of 2+. This roll is made is made after any to-hit rolls if required, but before any other rolls. If the attack etc had a strength value, the rebounded attack is double the strength upto a maximum of S10. If the attack etc had any special rules (such as Killing Blow for example), this is also included in the rebound. This power will also rebound attacks, spells etc that do not inflict direct damage, but an effect, for example the spell Doom and Darkness.
Every attack etc that is rebounded has no effect on the Guilt, this includes such instant kills as the Pit of Shades.

Transference
Though not a proficient fighter, the Guilt has other methods at her disposal. By grasping another any damage caused to her is transferred instantaneously to them, rendering normal protection useless.
The Guilt can choose to use this attack against one opponent in BtB contact instead of her normal attacks. The enemy model must roll under its I value or suffer one automatic wound as she grabs her opponent before stabbing herself. No armour saves are allowed against this wound.


What do we think?
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Feb 5, 2009
2,683
Toronto, Ontario
I was going to say OMFG... until I realized how much weaker the Guilt's stats were compared to the others...

I'd be inclined to drop them even a bit futher. WS 4, In 4... comparable to a human hero.

2+ reflection versus EVERYTHING is really busted... but at only Toughness 4 and 2 Wounds.. it's not really that bad. Might need to be careful about "healing" items/spells with this one...

Also, reflecting attacks/spells that are ranged... should this be subject to the combined range? (A-to-B-backto-A again...)
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
I have lowered the stats as requested. In regards to ranged attacks, I was thinking if it it the Guilt then it would rebound back to the attacker.
 

Kaladas Harkon

Wight King
Jan 2, 2009
424
I thought that, according to her description in the TVC, its effect would be bounced back, not the attack itself. For example, if she were hit by a chariot, the chariot would have the effect of being hit by itself.
 

Bishop

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Feb 5, 2009
2,683
Toronto, Ontario
Regarding a chariot reflection (or other similiar attacks), would it reflect each hit/wound individually? or roll a single save for the entire "effect"?

ie.
a) Chariot Impact hits (d6+1 hits, then save/reflect each one) - OR - one save/reflect, then apply d6+1 hits?
b) also things like Fireball, Bladewind, etc.

Also,
What if Guilt was hit by a template (like a stone thrower)? You want to place the template over the offending warmachine (scatter or no?) and then apply hits to those under it? Or just apply the single S8 (or whatever) hit to the warmachine (distributed like shooting?)?

There are alot of "variables" involved here whe you start breaking it down... it'd probably be best to keep it as simple as possible.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Hmm I though I was keeping it simple. Basically anything that hit the Guilt is reflected back. So things like bladewind, you would roll to allocate the number of hits etc, then for things that require a to hit roll you would roll. So basically whatever actually hit her got reflected back.

Here's a break down:

Every attack, spell or ability used on the Guilt is rebounded on the model / unit which inflicted it on a roll of 2+. This works in the following way:
-Determine using the normal method for the attack if number of hits that are applicable (such as chariot impact hits).
-Roll to hit if required.
-Roll for each individual hit to see if it is rebounded.
-If failed the Guilt is hurt as normal by the attack.
-If passed the attack automatically hits the model / unit that inflicted the attack. Multiple hits are randomised as per shooting if caused by a unit. The single hit caused by template weapons on the Guilt would also be randomised if inflicted by a unit. If inflicted by a warmachine the rebounded hit would be resolved on the warmachine itself.
-Attacks caused by characters are resolved against the characters. They do not benefit from Look Out Sir! or any other rule that would normally exempt them.
-If the attack etc had a strength value, the rebounded attack is double the strength upto a maximum of S10.
-If the attack etc had any special rules (such as Killing Blow for example), this is also included in the rebound. This power will also rebound attacks, spells etc that do not inflict direct damage, but an effect, for example the spell Doom and Darkness.
-Every attack etc that is rebounded has no effect on the Guilt, this includes such instant kills as the Pit of Shades.
 

Drog_Manslayer

Skeleton
Aug 9, 2009
56
A 2+ seems a bit much, but I can see it due to the lower general stats and the design to be a hero killer.

Watch out for those big blocks of Zombies though :)
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
With her fluff realistically it should even be better than 2+, however there needs to be some room for failure.

So do the expanded rules work better?
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
Hmm very good question Kaladas. She is Undead and should suffer from crumbling. I think to balance it out it should not work vs crumbling. Otherwise people will plant her in front of huge units and have her tarpit them.

Sound good?
 

Belladonna Voltaire

Vyrkos Primogen
True Blood
Aug 15, 2007
2,817
Wirral
Just a quick one on the Executioners pushback: might it be better to have it similar to the Dwarfs slow rune i.e shaving D6 inches off the enemies charge? It works easier ingame than an actual push.
 

Capt Rubber Ducky

Vampire Count
True Blood
Jun 9, 2009
1,547
Just looking at the guilts untouchable rule, i think it should be only a 4+ vs magical attacks. If she was in a unit would you be able to reflect things targeted at the unit e.g magic missiles and impact hits from chariots that don't directly target her but could harm her.

How would cannon balls work (she would have to fail Look out sir first) but would it continue going through the unit afterwards or stop at her. would it go back the number of inches it came or go back double the number of inches or would it continue as normal and the cannon and crew take a hit (ditrobuted as shooting) that does D3 wounds (or 2D3 if it goes back twice as powerfully?)

If she failed look out sir vs a stone thrower would the whole template be bonced back or just the hit on her (if it is a the one str hit you roll like a shooting hit vs the machine and its crew)
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
I would disagree about the 4+ vs magical things. Whilst the rule may need tweaking, it still still be as close as possible to the fluff as possible.

Do you mean the Innocence's rule Voltaire? What happens if the enemy is not moving though?
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
OK, time to get this back on track, so where was we. Ah yes - the Guilt.

So here is what we had:

The Guilt (Hero Choice)

M 4 / WS 4 / BS 4 / S 4 / T 4 / W 2 / I 4 / A 3 / Ld 9

Equipment
Full Plate
Two Hand Weapons

Special Rules

Undead

Untouchable
Seemingly weak compared to the other Dreadlord's, the Guilt is a deadly foe as she is almost unstoppable. Every blow, attack or spell is rebounded at the attacker with doubled fury, ensuring that they are not alive to try again
Every attack, spell or ability used on the Guilt is rebounded on the model / unit which inflicted it on a roll of 2+. This works in the following way:
-Determine using the normal method for the attack if number of hits that are applicable (such as chariot impact hits).
-Roll to hit if required.
-Roll for each individual hit to see if it is rebounded.
-If failed the Guilt is hurt as normal by the attack.
-If passed the attack automatically hits the model / unit that inflicted the attack. Multiple hits are randomised as per shooting if caused by a unit. The single hit caused by template weapons on the Guilt would also be randomised if inflicted by a unit. If inflicted by a warmachine the rebounded hit would be resolved on the warmachine itself.
-Attacks caused by characters are resolved against the characters. They do not benefit from Look Out Sir! or any other rule that would normally exempt them.
-If the attack etc had a strength value, the rebounded attack is double the strength upto a maximum of S10.
-If the attack etc had any special rules (such as Killing Blow for example), this is also included in the rebound. This power will also rebound attacks, spells etc that do not inflict direct damage, but an effect, for example the spell Doom and Darkness.
-Every attack etc that is rebounded has no effect on the Guilt, this includes such instant kills as the Pit of Shades.
-This power cannot be used against crumbling wounds.

Transference
Though not a proficient fighter, the Guilt has other methods at her disposal. By grasping another any damage caused to her is transferred instantaneously to them, rendering normal protection useless.
The Guilt can choose to use this attack against one opponent in BtB contact instead of her normal attacks. The enemy model must roll under its I value or suffer one automatic wound as she grabs her opponent before stabbing herself. No armour saves are allowed against this wound.
 

Capt Rubber Ducky

Vampire Count
True Blood
Jun 9, 2009
1,547
That's one long special rule.

How is she going to rebound a hole in the ground below her (pit of shades)? I think she should be treated normaly for that spell (same goes for 11 or 12 on Infernal gateway).

I think this might be easier

The guilt has a 2+ ward, for every ward save she passes the person who made the attack that forced the ward save is hit by the Initial attack. If the attack had a strength value it is doubled to a maximum of 10. If it is unclear who made the attack then it is distrobuted as shooting on that unit (e.g warmachines).

I know it isn't as fluffy as the other rule but i think this rule is more usable in game.

For things that ignore ward, there must be some things too powerful for the guilt to rebound.
 
Apr 24, 2009
182
Behind you!
Perhaps, for the untouchable rule, you detail it as such:

Untouchable
Seemingly weak compared to the other Dreadlord's, the Guilt is a deadly foe as she is almost unstoppable. Every blow, attack or spell is rebounded at the attacker with doubled fury, ensuring that they are not alive to try again.
Whenever the Guilt comes under attack of any kind, roll a d6. On a 2+, the Guilt suffers no effect. Instead, resolve the entire attack against the attacking model. Resolve this attack as though it was the Guilt who issued the attack.



This seems a little bit simpler. Also, I noted that she may be a touch overpowered if you can heal her - really, you'd need to take out both wounds at once or else she'd just be healed up by someone or other. Perhaps you could include the fact that any healing or bonus spells (e.g. Bear's Anger or something) are also reflected. Essentially, if she wants to be healed, she'd have to do it herself.

Also, for the fluff for Immense Stamina:
His body, already in peak condition and bolstered by the powers of Nagash, has attained such a great level of resilience so as to appear indestructible.
 

Disciple of Nagash

Oldblood
Staff member
Feb 12, 2008
27,732
This version seems to be the simplest:

The guilt has a 2+ ward, for every ward save she passes the person who made the attack that forced the ward save is hit by the Initial attack. If the attack had a strength value it is doubled to a maximum of 10. If it is unclear who made the attack then it is distrobuted as shooting on that unit (e.g warmachines).

I think I would agree with that, what does everyone else think? Any questions that would arise from it? I disagree about the healing her. As said before, the Legion has very limited healing compared to VC fro example, so I don;t think it would be OP.

Thanks for the fluff Zaak - I hope stick around and keep helping out xd
 
Apr 24, 2009
182
Behind you!
Yeah, healing her shouldn't be too bad I suppose if LoN don't heal as much as VC do. I was just worried about her going up and down between one and two wounds all game though. :rolleyes:

I think you should clearly define the attack as taking whatever form it originally did, as though it came from the Guilt. As to the first part, when I firs read it, I thought you were saying that it became a shooting attack. On a second read-through it was clearer, but I think explicitly stating it would avoid some rules-lawyering. Also, I know there are some magical items that involve whoever hit them - think about the Gem of Blood for example. I think if someone was wearing that and attacked the Guilt, but got hit back, the Gem of Blood should in theory bounce it back onto the Guilt, not himself. Similarly, there was some Orcs & Goblins item that makes you take the enemy armor save - this should be the Guilt's save.

On that note, I think you should make it clearer that the rule isn't actually a ward save - I'm not certain, but I think there are magical weapons that can hack through ward saves, or even items that let someone steal another person's ward save. I think it would be better phrased like: "Instead of an armor save, the Guilt can reflect back attacks on her attacker. Roll a d6: on a 2+, etc".
 

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