BA - 8th Edition Review: Blood Dragons

[RedDuke]

I am very sorry guys, now I see what I missed: it was heroic killing blow...
I like the idea and I would pay even 65 to get it as it is. However, it would also be nice to have an hero option for conventional KB, possibly a cheap one, like naked kb @25 or kb + rerolling 1s @30...

 

[Dreadgrass]

How would these abilities stack with Sword of Kings?

 

[Bishop]

Upon further reflection, Dancemans comments provide even more reason to have Master-Strike at 55+ pts... I find myself in agreement.

How would these abilities stack with Sword of Kings?

I'd say nothing... only a Wight King gains the benefit based on the description of the Sword of Kings. IMO, Sword of Kings should be Wight King only... but eh?

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Curse you Danceman!!!!......ah I mean I agree as well

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Well, Master Strike with Heroic KB needs to be 55 pts, for reasons already discussed.

So, here's a summary of changes that we seem to (more or less) agree on/need to vote on:

Challenges: Blood Dragons must issue challenges / accept challenges wherever possible. (this was an oversight in the original design process)

Mounts: Since Dreadknight is no longer an option, a BD Vampire may take one of the following options:
- Nightmare at +10pts
- Barded Nightmare at +15pts
(This is based on normal progession... and IMO, both options should be available)

Defender - 20pts
The warrior can create a wall of glittering steel that none but the most skilled can pass
One model able to strike the vampire looses one attack, which may take the model down to zero attacks.

Honour or Death - 25pts (change points to 25, due to slight increase in power?)
Many have regretted accepting a challenge from a creature of death.
Any model who issues a challenge that is accepted by a vampire with the above power, or accepts a challenge must take a Ld test at -1, using it's own Ld characteristic. If failed they must act as if they refused a challenge as per the BRB. Does not affect units that are ItP.


Unliving Legend - 45 pts (unsure on the point cost for this, but I'd guess somewhere around 45-50)
Such are the tales of this vampire, that his mere presence in combat can greatly sway its outcome.
One per army. Any wounds caused by this character will count as 2 wounds for combat resolution purposes. Any unit which loses combat vs. this character, or a unit containing this character, can not claim to be steadfast. (In a challenge the overkill bonus would be capped at 10).

Master-strike - 55pts (needs to be 55pts to prevent stacking with Red Fury)
Such are the power of this vampires blows, one strike can tear his foe asunder
The vampire has the Heroic Killing Blow special rule and may re-roll any to wound rolls.

Master of Blades - 100pts
This vampire has trained purely in combat for hundreds, if not thousands of years, and has unmatched in combat save for Abhorash himself. However such is his pride that he will not sully his skills by using magical weapons.
The vampire has ASF, WS10, I10 whilst in combat only. For every initial attack that causes an unsaved wound he may make TWO additional attacks. However the vampire can never take magical weapons.

Ok, so we are all agree that these are the changes to the Bloodline Powers? If there are no objections by tomorrow we will move onto the Blood Dragon army list.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Ok, I have edited the first post with the powers changes. I think they are fine.

Now onto the army list. One of the main things that strikes me here, is that with the change to the 8th cav is a lot less powerful than it was, so we need to do something to balance out the list.

There was also complaints the list was a bit bland, so perhaps we could custom make a unit. Personally I like the idea of another vampire unit, but this one is a unit of vampires who have studied lots of different martial techniques. So they can switch their fighting styles a bit like Wardancers? They would obviously be a rare choice. Any thoughts?

 

[Dreadgrass]

I like the idea of the new vampire unit... maybe make them come in small skirmishing units like the old clan eshin Triads?

 

[Danceman]

Perhaps this unit could belong to a certain school of Blood Dragons, like for example;

Way of the Warrior: Standard BD type, pretty much a knight on foot. Nothin special beyond being walking tanks!
Berserkers: Barely no armour rely on brute stength or sheer number attacks.
Order of Assassins: Rely on speed and skill(like Killing Blow, -1 to hit in CC/-2 to hit with missile weapons).

Not sure about the name, just wrote em up just now! The reason why I think we should have you choose before the game is that otherwise they'd just steal too much for WE and it feels more like a Blood Dragon to focus on a particular discipline(especially when, I assume, we're talking about relatively young vampires).

 

[RedDuke]

I like the first and third options more than the second. However, I am not sure whether the first would be more cost effective than GGs. The third would instead fill a gap in the army list, especially if the unit can get the scout ability and be joined by a scout vampire. I am not so sure if this really fits the BD stereotype, but it would be nice if they had some sort of thrown weapon (Mortal Kombat's Scorpion's spike with range 6" and killing blow would be awesome :devil2: )

 

[Danceman]

Thinking about it I do not not know if it would make much sense to include an assassin to begin with. Assassins are, after all, not really the kind of character you would find on the battlefield(which is why I think DE having assassins in the army is slightly silly).

Way of the;
Blood Warrior: Full Plate Armour, Shield + something else?

Blood Monk:
Combat reflexes; -1 to hit in combat/-2 to hit
Killing Blow
<Some cool name for scorpions weapon>; 6", KB, S:As bearer, Always S&S(regardless if they can see the unit charging, such are their reflexes!)
5+ ward working ONLY in combat.
Pay to scout?

Or we could just keep the special unit of Blood Monks as, you also point out, the walking tanks might be pretty redundant and we already have Blood Knights and it is more likely they'd join that order than to walk around on foot.

 

[RedDuke]

Blood monks are great stuff Danceman, really great stuff...
Kudos to you

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Yes the Blood Monks sounds like a great option, we can say they have trained in Cathay or something? I presume being monks they obviously have no armour, so perhaps their scorpion spike thingy can double as an additional hand weapon?

The only issue with them, is that I see them being slaughtered by ranged weapons? Perhaps their dodge should be constant instead of combat or is that too much?

 

[RedDuke]

5+ ws only in combat makes sense to me as a uber-parry save. Maybe this is enough even without the minus to hit in HtH. The idea of scorpions weapons as additional hand weapons is cool.
I think there is no wrong if they have a weak spot against shooting.. they should be played stealthy. Maybe an option could be to make them m7 and to give them a bonus of some kind when attacking occupied buildings or to give a substantial minus to shooting against them (like... they consider their cover to be one point better in any circumstance)
Other ninja stuff: poison? hatred? asf? Too Dark Elvish? If so, to make up for, what about: once per battle they can act as a VDM has been cast upon them?
Options for the champion? 25pt magic items? How would the scorpions weapon interact with a magic weapon?

 

[Danceman]

As for the profile I am guessing we'll with Blood Knights profile;
Suggested alterations to the profile would be; +1 I and have them be LD9(due to their training, they are no simple vampire thralls!).

"Mind your surroundings...":Through meditation and hard training the monk's mind is so in-tuned with his surroundings it is virtually impossible to catch him off guard; -1 to hit in combat/-2 to hit from shooting.
Combat Reflexes;The monk's life is that of constant and relentless training. Hand to hand combat comes as naturally as breathing:
5+ ward in combat only.
Dragon's Bite; A deadly weapon used exclusively by the Blood Monk order. A heavy tipped spear with a short shaft, to the end of the shaft there is a strong rope which enables a quick retrieval. In the hands of a well trained monk this weapon is just as precise as it is deadly.
Range: 6" , Strength: As user, Quick to fire.

Some new ones;

Fleet of Foot; Blood Monks have the swiftstrider special rule. This should make them quite fast, remember vampires are already M6 so 3D6 and pick 2 highest is very fast indeed.
Martial Arts master; Blood Monks have the Extra Attack special rule. Blood Monks need no weapons, they fight bruce lee style!

Poison feels a bit too dishonorable.
25 of magic items, I am thinking enchanted items or talismans as it is a bit more into theme of martial arts movies(which always have some medallion or trinket... or something!)
If we want to add weapons then if you use a magic weapon you should, for example, lose the Extra Attack(assuming we go with that!).

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I'm really liking those rules I have the mental image of some kung-fu monks kicking the crap out of everyone.

 

[Count Lasombra]

WOW,love the blood monk Idea.
Here's a couple of random thoughts;
1.Leaping blood strike,while charging in a straight line BMs have the fly special rule.
2.Evasion,4+ ward save vs. templates
3.Twin strike ;if the BM break/destroy the enemy in the first round of combat they may pursue/overrun in any direction.

 

[Danceman]

Blood Knight profile; +1 Initiative, Ld9.

"Mind your surroundings...":Through meditation and hard training the monk's mind is so in-tuned with his surroundings it is virtually impossible to catch him off guard; -1 to hit in combat/-2 to hit from shooting. In addition, the monk has a 4+ ward save versus attacks which use templates(of any kind).
Combat Reflexes;The monk's life is that of constant and relentless training. Hand to hand combat comes as naturally as breathing:
5+ ward in combat only.
Dragon's Bite; A deadly weapon used exclusively by the Blood Monk order. A heavy tipped spear with a short shaft, to the end of the shaft there is a strong rope which enables a quick retrieval. In the hands of a well trained monk this weapon is just as precise as it is deadly.
Range: 6" , Strength: As user, Quick to fire. (Should we add armour piercing, had idea of the spears being fixed with the teeth of dragons for added tearing effect).

Fleet of foot/Leaping blood strike:Vroooooooooooooooom!: Which one do we want to use?
Iron fist: Extra Attack

One model may be upgraded to Blood Abbot*(+1 I and A); who can take one item from either Talismans or enchanted items(or if you want we can add magic weapons here too).

*Each shaolin monastery is lead by a head Abbot so a Blood Abbot felt like a natural choice.

Twin-strike might make them a bit too fast.

 

[RedDuke]

[EDIT]


Fleet of foot: very nice idea, I like this better

Imho, -1 to hit in cc is too powerful. Something like: enemies have to reroll successful hits in the first round of combat?

I see the point with LD fluffwise, but what is the advantage in game? It sounds costly...

What about killing blow? Just in case, would it be too much to allow ranged killing blows with the Dragon's bite?

Extra attack: this is another too good to be true option.. what about dire charge instead?

The champion. He, at least, should definitely have killing blow in the form of some tipically kung-fu style technique of death.
What about the name? I would suggest something like "Crimson Sensei". [I was late it seems :/]
Should we drop the talisman/enchanted item option and craft some tools of the trade for him instead (like the dark elves have)?

Have you ever seen this movie?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO1KibeDNXg

 

[Danceman]

I like the idea of KB on the ranged weapon, maybe even heroic KB when used by the Abbot/sensei. Since we're only allowing a single shot a HKB does not strike me as being overpowered as he is still just a single wound model.

Overall I think we need to restrain ourselves a bit as the unit already have a ton of special rules and adding it too much to a mere champion/unit we might end up making this unit too powerful for its own good. I think you may be right on the LD part. Let's just leave it like it is. I agree the -1 to hit in combat might be too much... 5+ ward isn't bad and since they have a good initiative and are pretty hard to hurt with ranged weaponry this might be a good thing. It would also allow us to keep their cost down.

 

[RedDuke]

Yes, we should drop something indeed.
Btw, who thinks he knows how to calculate their value? :?:

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Ok, here is what I think based on the above discussion:


Blood Knight profile; +1 Initiative.

"Mind your surroundings...":Through meditation and hard training the monk's mind is so in-tuned with his surroundings it is virtually impossible to catch him off guard;Has ASF. In addition, the monk has -2 to hit from shooting and a 4+ ward save versus attacks which use templates(of any kind).

Combat Reflexes;The monk's life is that of constant and relentless training. Hand to hand combat comes as naturally as breathing:5+ ward in combat only.

Dragon's Bite; A deadly weapon used exclusively by the Blood Monk order. A heavy tipped spear with a short shaft, to the end of the shaft there is a strong rope which enables a quick retrieval. In the hands of a well trained monk this weapon is just as precise as it is deadly.
Range: 6" , Strength: As user, Quick to fire, Killing Blow.

Leaping blood strike:Vroooooooooooooooom!: Whilst charging in a straight line, Blood Monks count as having the fly special move for the charge only.

Iron fist: Extra Attack

One model may be upgraded to Blood Abbot*(+1 I and A); who can take one item from either Talismans or enchanted items. The Blood Abbot's Dragon Bite instead benefits from the Heroic Killing Blow rule.

 

[Danceman]

Leaping strike; The balance between animalistic feriocity and acrobatic grace of these undead warrior monks goes beyond the capabilities of any mortal.

Iron fists; The monks of the Monastery of Blood dedicate their lives to turn their bodies into living weapons.

Just a bit of padding for the special rules

 

[RedDuke]

Fantastic descriptions Danceman!!
A few comments:

Are we sure the abbot really needs the second initiative boost? What about bow skill instead?

This is the last time I repeat myself on this (I swear), but I think the extra attack is too much. Dire charge (I mean the version with 1 extra attack on charge) seems more acceptable to me. It could even be a stomp, following up to Leaping Strike, as far as we imagine the vampires landing on the enemy, attacking during the descent and finally tripping them down. This should also help cost containment, btw.

I would put a price to the heroic upgrade of abbot's killing blow and maybe also make it magical, but forbidding any magic item if he chooses that option. (we could call it Red Dragon's bite)

Question 1. I suppose that a flying charge already implies swiftstride. What happens when they pursue into fresh enemies?

Question 2. Do they have killing blow also in Hth?

Question 3. Have we agreed on making them upgradeable to scouts (the definitive scouts, let mi add ) ?

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Fantastic descriptions Danceman!!
A few comments:

Are we sure the abbot really needs the second initiative boost? What about bow skill instead?[/quote] I would say the initiative boost is worth it, it helps that whole unit against units with high ld and fits with the fluff.

This is the last time I repeat myself on this (I swear), but I think the extra attack is too much. Dire charge (I mean the version with 1 extra attack on charge) seems more acceptable to me. It could even be a stomp, following up to Leaping Strike, as far as we imagine the vampires landing on the enemy, attacking during the descent and finally tripping them down. This should also help cost containment, btw.

Hmm, I can see point here. Perhaps yes, edit the Leaping strike rule to include 1 impact hit per model that is capable of attacking?

I would put a price to the heroic upgrade of abbot's killing blow and maybe also make it magical, but forbidding any magic item if he chooses that option. (we could call it Red Dragon's bite)

I disagree here. I think they should have the weakness of having non-magical attacks, and that the Heroic Killing blow should be part of the upgrade of the unit champ. He is meant to be the best of the monks after all. I also think they should not have access to any magical weapons.

Question 1. I suppose that a flying charge already implies swiftstride. What happens when they pursue into fresh enemies?

I think the Leaping Strike should only be on the charge, so any other movement would be at their normal ground movement value.

Question 2. Do they have killing blow also in Hth?

I wasn't sure on this one myself - I was worried about making them over powered. They do already have 2x ASF S5 hits that will most likely re-roll to hit.

Question 3. Have we agreed on making them upgradeable to scouts (the definitive scouts, let mi add ) ?

An interesting option that I like. Would be very costly though.......then again scouting with the Leaping Strike rule would probably be very unfair.

 

[Danceman]

1. I think we should keep it to "charge only".
2. It should only apply to ranged.
3. Scouting might be a little much compared to other armies scouts. These vamps are both fast and hit hard.

I agree with DoN, the Abbot's attacks should be mundane. I also agree that the Extra Attack may be a bit much. As pointed out they already have 2 S5 attacks + their shooting, that is enough! It also helps, as you also pointed out, with keeping the cost down.

So away with the Iron Fists rule and just add an impact hit line to Leaping Strike then?