Yup, I agree with that. I think we have just created the coolest unit in warhammer, I mean kung-fu vampires that keep leap across a battlefield whilst dodging arrows and also have a weapon like Scorpion out of Mortal Kombat............:O
BA - 8th Edition Review: Blood Dragons
- Thread starter Disciple of Nagash
- Start date
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The balance between animalistic feriocity and acrobatic grace of these undead warrior monks goes beyond the capabilities of any mortal. Every step is just prelude, as the monk builds up momentum, to a bonecrushing blow.
or... "...any mortal. As the monk descend upon his foes he channels the beast within into bonecrushing blow."
Just thought the leap padding might do with some extra spicing up since we moved the impact hit over there!
or... "...any mortal. As the monk descend upon his foes he channels the beast within into bonecrushing blow."
Just thought the leap padding might do with some extra spicing up since we moved the impact hit over there!
80 points sounds like a hefty price to play, thats 400 points for 5 of them.
Blood knights being the closest comparision the blood monks have no armour at all(but a 5+ ward and their template save), lesser movement, lesser punch, no banner options. We then have flamers for DoC who cast a mere 35 points who have a much better shooting attack, twice the wounds yet worse in combat, yes I realise flamers are great value. Then we've got Bloodcrushers who are 70 points and they really can dish out the pain and have 2 wounds as well.
Blood Knight is 55, so -10 for the horse, -10 for the frenzy, 10 for the armour, -25 for no banner.
Then; +5 for the initiative, 20+ the ward(shooty protection), +15 for the weapon, +15 for extra movement and impact.
The cost isn't proportional to actual value but rather balanced versus each other and based on trade-off abilities as well as cost versus items available on characters(but reduced in price due to being on a model with a single wound and worse profile). This might make no sense at all but I am using more a of a balancing act than calculating values here. What is crusial to remember is that we're dealing with single wound models here, if they had 2 wounds I could definitely see them being up around 80-90 points.
Lands at 60 points per model. +25 to upgrade to Abbot.
So take this with a grain of salt, is basically what I am saying
Blood knights being the closest comparision the blood monks have no armour at all(but a 5+ ward and their template save), lesser movement, lesser punch, no banner options. We then have flamers for DoC who cast a mere 35 points who have a much better shooting attack, twice the wounds yet worse in combat, yes I realise flamers are great value. Then we've got Bloodcrushers who are 70 points and they really can dish out the pain and have 2 wounds as well.
Blood Knight is 55, so -10 for the horse, -10 for the frenzy, 10 for the armour, -25 for no banner.
Then; +5 for the initiative, 20+ the ward(shooty protection), +15 for the weapon, +15 for extra movement and impact.
The cost isn't proportional to actual value but rather balanced versus each other and based on trade-off abilities as well as cost versus items available on characters(but reduced in price due to being on a model with a single wound and worse profile). This might make no sense at all but I am using more a of a balancing act than calculating values here. What is crusial to remember is that we're dealing with single wound models here, if they had 2 wounds I could definitely see them being up around 80-90 points.
Lands at 60 points per model. +25 to upgrade to Abbot.
So take this with a grain of salt, is basically what I am saying
DoN - can you do a complete write up in the normal template (to better assess point value)?
I think that the flying charge should be restricted to double the normal ground move... I could see them moving slightly faster then a normal on foot vampire, say 6(12). Charging 10/20 is just too much!
Also, the ward save should apply to any ranged attacks that do not roll to hit. (ie.I can see well trained monks dodging cannonballs, flame templates, etc, etc...)
The extra attack dropped for impact hits/"stomp" attack is fine by me.
Other then that, everything else seems fine... just pending point value.
I think that the flying charge should be restricted to double the normal ground move... I could see them moving slightly faster then a normal on foot vampire, say 6(12). Charging 10/20 is just too much!
Also, the ward save should apply to any ranged attacks that do not roll to hit. (ie.I can see well trained monks dodging cannonballs, flame templates, etc, etc...)
The extra attack dropped for impact hits/"stomp" attack is fine by me.
Other then that, everything else seems fine... just pending point value.
I agree with giving them swiftstrider only (or just movement 7 to limit the amount of special rules), but only as far as there is an affordable scout upgrade erv:.
We are now considering a change that reeeally makes a difference in play. What do you think?
erv:.We are now considering a change that reeeally makes a difference in play. What do you think?
RedDuke said:I agree with giving them swiftstrider only (or just movement 7 to limit the amount of special rules), but only as far as there is an affordable scout upgrade
We are now considering a change that reeeally makes a difference in play. What do you think?
Movment 7 is too high, it's the same as mounted bloodkinghts and there well mounted I know it doesn't make much differance but its principle. I'd go with 6 and the swift strider rule.
Ok, so we have:
Blood Monks
M6 - WS5 - BS3 - S5 - T4 - I5 - A2 - Ld7
Unit size: 3-10
Weapons and Armour:
Hands and Feet (hand weapon)
Dragon's Bite;
A deadly weapon used exclusively by the Blood Monk order. A heavy tipped spear with a short shaft, to the end of the shaft there is a strong rope which enables a quick retrieval. In the hands of a well trained monk this weapon is just as precise as it is deadly.
Range: 6" , Strength: As user, Quick to fire, Killing Blow.
Special Rules:
Undead
Vampire
"Mind your surroundings..."
Through meditation and hard training the monk's mind is so in-tuned with his surroundings it is virtually impossible to catch him off guard
Has ASF. In addition, the monk has -2 to hit from shooting and a 4+ ward save versus any ranged attacks which do not roll to hit(of any kind).
Combat Reflexes;
The monk's life is that of constant and relentless training. Hand to hand combat comes as naturally as breathing
5+ ward in combat only.
Leaping blood strike
The balance between animalistic feriocity and acrobatic grace of these undead warrior monks goes beyond the capabilities of any mortal.
Blood Monks have the Swiftstrider special rule. Additionally if they charge, all Monks that are in a position to strike make 1 impact hit at their basic strength.
Options:
Upgrade one Blood Monk to Abbot for +25pts. The Abbot as +1I, +1A and his Dragon's bite benefits from the Heroic Killing Blow special rule.
What do we think? Personally I think their BS needs raising to 4.
Blood Monks
M6 - WS5 - BS3 - S5 - T4 - I5 - A2 - Ld7
Unit size: 3-10
Weapons and Armour:
Hands and Feet (hand weapon)
Dragon's Bite;
A deadly weapon used exclusively by the Blood Monk order. A heavy tipped spear with a short shaft, to the end of the shaft there is a strong rope which enables a quick retrieval. In the hands of a well trained monk this weapon is just as precise as it is deadly.
Range: 6" , Strength: As user, Quick to fire, Killing Blow.
Special Rules:
Undead
Vampire
"Mind your surroundings..."
Through meditation and hard training the monk's mind is so in-tuned with his surroundings it is virtually impossible to catch him off guard
Has ASF. In addition, the monk has -2 to hit from shooting and a 4+ ward save versus any ranged attacks which do not roll to hit(of any kind).
Combat Reflexes;
The monk's life is that of constant and relentless training. Hand to hand combat comes as naturally as breathing
5+ ward in combat only.
Leaping blood strike
The balance between animalistic feriocity and acrobatic grace of these undead warrior monks goes beyond the capabilities of any mortal.
Blood Monks have the Swiftstrider special rule. Additionally if they charge, all Monks that are in a position to strike make 1 impact hit at their basic strength.
Options:
Upgrade one Blood Monk to Abbot for +25pts. The Abbot as +1I, +1A and his Dragon's bite benefits from the Heroic Killing Blow special rule.
What do we think? Personally I think their BS needs raising to 4.
Capt Rubber Ducky said:
Swifstrider is more powerful than +1 mov, because it grants higher average against a 1 point higher maximum: a huge difference when you pursuit. So, now they are like Blood knights with -1 movement
But we may reconsider this when we discuss the point cost. To avoid any misunderstanding: I like swiftstrider since the first moment, the point is to have options for cost-containment.@DoN
1) I would suggest:
Weapons and Armour:
Hands, Feet and Fangs (hand weapon) :konrad:
2) I think as well their BS is too low for the general flavour of the unit... this is kind of a problem o_o.
At least the abbot should be BS4, otherwise the HKB becomes too unlikely. Cost-containment proposal: the abbot is only +1 BS and HKB, neither +1A nor +1I. I cannot recall any other unit champion with 3-4 improvements.
Now questions:
1) I have always thought they were skirmishers. I am wrong?
2) No polemics in here, only a consistency test (I am just playing the devil's advocate).
What is their main use on the battlefield? They will probably cost a lot and attract a lot of fire. Without the flying charge and no special deployment options they are not the smooth assassins we had in mind at the beginning: they become a flanking unit that is not as fast as the vargulf. Their combat prowess is wasted if used to protect the general or the necros, especially considering they won't be enough to grant them a LoS roll. So, what are they for?
3) What about restricting the options for characters joining them? This is another cost-containment proposal and it is also to underline their Eastern origins (and pride). Something like vampires only, no weapon, no armour, no mount. No character at all would also be an option for me (maybe we should create a SC for them, dunno). The point is that I cannot really see a mounted wight king with a lance, a blood dragon tank with FH and a GW or Walach himself joining them... :slapface:
I really do still think they should have BS4, or the cool weapons they have are not going to be worth it. In regards to the Abbot - well I suppose we have to decide whether it is more important for shooting or combat. I still think he should have +1I, to help deal with higer I threats the normal Monks can't.
A good question raised in regards to their use though. I did imagine them as some kind of fast ninja monks that would operate on their own behind enemy lines. So perhaps in that regards we should look at them being scouts, and as suggested not allow characters to join them?
A good question raised in regards to their use though. I did imagine them as some kind of fast ninja monks that would operate on their own behind enemy lines. So perhaps in that regards we should look at them being scouts, and as suggested not allow characters to join them?
Seems we got a bit of writers block here.
I have no problem with making this unit a sort of short-range shaolin type. Perhaps it is even worth considering BS5 and WS4. Their main prupose being to stay relatively close and not excel in combat but still have a respectable WS4(as their training would mainly revolve around their main weapon). Having 2 S5 attacks still represent certain amont of martial skill.
On the same token I think M6 is sufficient.
Also on the ninja part, the more we flesh these out they don't look very ninja(the shaolin monks certainly wasn't).
I also like the way keep them "naked", no weapons, no armour, just their basic monk clothing and signature weapon. I also like the idea of characters being unable to join them as they refuse to fight with outsiders or whatever reason we go with.
I have no problem with making this unit a sort of short-range shaolin type. Perhaps it is even worth considering BS5 and WS4. Their main prupose being to stay relatively close and not excel in combat but still have a respectable WS4(as their training would mainly revolve around their main weapon). Having 2 S5 attacks still represent certain amont of martial skill.
On the same token I think M6 is sufficient.
Also on the ninja part, the more we flesh these out they don't look very ninja(the shaolin monks certainly wasn't).
I also like the way keep them "naked", no weapons, no armour, just their basic monk clothing and signature weapon. I also like the idea of characters being unable to join them as they refuse to fight with outsiders or whatever reason we go with.
Right then, attempt 2:
Blood Monks
M6 - WS4 - BS5 - S5 - T4 - I5 - A2 - Ld7
Unit size: 3-10
Weapons and Armour:
Hands and Feet and Fangs (hand weapon)
Dragon's Bite;
A deadly weapon used exclusively by the Blood Monk order. A heavy tipped spear with a short shaft, to the end of the shaft there is a strong rope which enables a quick retrieval. In the hands of a well trained monk this weapon is just as precise as it is deadly.
Range: 6" , Strength: As user, Quick to fire, Killing Blow.
Special Rules:
Undead
Vampire
"Mind your surroundings..."
Through meditation and hard training the monk's mind is so in-tuned with his surroundings it is virtually impossible to catch him off guard
Has ASF. In addition, the monk has -2 to hit from shooting and a 4+ ward save versus any ranged attacks which do not roll to hit(of any kind).
Combat Reflexes;
The monk's life is that of constant and relentless training. Hand to hand combat comes as naturally as breathing
5+ ward in combat only.
Leaping blood strike
The balance between animalistic feriocity and acrobatic grace of these undead warrior monks goes beyond the capabilities of any mortal.
Blood Monks have the Swiftstrider special rule. Additionally if they charge, all Monks that are in a position to strike make 1 impact hit at their basic strength.
Loyalty to the Clan
Whilst Blood Monks may fight for others they never truly trust them. They are a force apart and will allow only those of their clan to fight by their side[/b]
No characters may join Blood Monk units. Additionally Blood Monks may never use another characters leadership for any reason (such as the General) nor may the benefit from the Battle Standard Bearer
Options:
Upgrade one Blood Monk to Abbot for +25pts. The Abbot as +1I, +1A and his Dragon's bite benefits from the Heroic Killing Blow special rule.
Upgrade the unit to Scouting for +??pts per model
********
I thought with the extra downsides of the Loyalty of the Clan rule we could maybe reduce their cost?
Blood Monks
M6 - WS4 - BS5 - S5 - T4 - I5 - A2 - Ld7
Unit size: 3-10
Weapons and Armour:
Hands and Feet and Fangs (hand weapon)
Dragon's Bite;
A deadly weapon used exclusively by the Blood Monk order. A heavy tipped spear with a short shaft, to the end of the shaft there is a strong rope which enables a quick retrieval. In the hands of a well trained monk this weapon is just as precise as it is deadly.
Range: 6" , Strength: As user, Quick to fire, Killing Blow.
Special Rules:
Undead
Vampire
"Mind your surroundings..."
Through meditation and hard training the monk's mind is so in-tuned with his surroundings it is virtually impossible to catch him off guard
Has ASF. In addition, the monk has -2 to hit from shooting and a 4+ ward save versus any ranged attacks which do not roll to hit(of any kind).
Combat Reflexes;
The monk's life is that of constant and relentless training. Hand to hand combat comes as naturally as breathing
5+ ward in combat only.
Leaping blood strike
The balance between animalistic feriocity and acrobatic grace of these undead warrior monks goes beyond the capabilities of any mortal.
Blood Monks have the Swiftstrider special rule. Additionally if they charge, all Monks that are in a position to strike make 1 impact hit at their basic strength.
Loyalty to the Clan
Whilst Blood Monks may fight for others they never truly trust them. They are a force apart and will allow only those of their clan to fight by their side[/b]
No characters may join Blood Monk units. Additionally Blood Monks may never use another characters leadership for any reason (such as the General) nor may the benefit from the Battle Standard Bearer
Options:
Upgrade one Blood Monk to Abbot for +25pts. The Abbot as +1I, +1A and his Dragon's bite benefits from the Heroic Killing Blow special rule.
Upgrade the unit to Scouting for +??pts per model
********
I thought with the extra downsides of the Loyalty of the Clan rule we could maybe reduce their cost?
Disciple of Nagash said:
Just a thought - surely it would be simply to just combine these two rules?:
"Mind your surroundings..."
Through meditation and hard training the monk's mind is so in-tuned with his surroundings it is virtually impossible to catch him off guard. The many years constant and relentless training ensures that Hand to hand combat comes as naturally as breathing
Has ASF. Additionally the monks have a 4+ ward save.
Right then, so final version:
Blood Monks - 70pts per model
M6 - WS5 - BS5 - S5 - T4 - I5 - A2 - Ld7
Unit size: 3-10
Weapons and Armour:
Hands and Feet and Fangs (hand weapon)
Dragon's Bite;
A deadly weapon used exclusively by the Blood Monk order. A heavy tipped spear with a short shaft, to the end of the shaft there is a strong rope which enables a quick retrieval. In the hands of a well trained monk this weapon is just as precise as it is deadly.
Range: 6" , Strength: As user, Quick to fire, Killing Blow.
Special Rules:
Undead
Vampire
Skirmishers
"Mind your surroundings..."
Through meditation and hard training the monk's mind is so in-tuned with his surroundings it is virtually impossible to catch him off guard. The many years constant and relentless training ensures that Hand to hand combat comes as naturally as breathing
Has ASF. Additionally the monks have a 4+ ward save.
Leaping blood strike
The balance between animalistic feriocity and acrobatic grace of these undead warrior monks goes beyond the capabilities of any mortal.
Blood Monks have the Swiftstrider special rule. Additionally if they charge, all Monks that are in a position to strike make 1 impact hit at their basic strength.
Loyalty to the Clan
Whilst Blood Monks may fight for others they never truly trust them. They are a force apart and will allow only those of their clan to fight by their side[/b]
No characters may join Blood Monk units. Additionally Blood Monks may never use another characters leadership for any reason (such as the General) nor may the benefit from the Battle Standard Bearer
Options:
Upgrade one Blood Monk to Abbot for +25pts. The Abbot as +1I, +1A and his Dragon's bite benefits from the Heroic Killing Blow special rule.
I quite like them, though we need points for them plus the scout upgrade.
Blood Monks - 70pts per model
M6 - WS5 - BS5 - S5 - T4 - I5 - A2 - Ld7
Unit size: 3-10
Weapons and Armour:
Hands and Feet and Fangs (hand weapon)
Dragon's Bite;
A deadly weapon used exclusively by the Blood Monk order. A heavy tipped spear with a short shaft, to the end of the shaft there is a strong rope which enables a quick retrieval. In the hands of a well trained monk this weapon is just as precise as it is deadly.
Range: 6" , Strength: As user, Quick to fire, Killing Blow.
Special Rules:
Undead
Vampire
Skirmishers
"Mind your surroundings..."
Through meditation and hard training the monk's mind is so in-tuned with his surroundings it is virtually impossible to catch him off guard. The many years constant and relentless training ensures that Hand to hand combat comes as naturally as breathing
Has ASF. Additionally the monks have a 4+ ward save.
Leaping blood strike
The balance between animalistic feriocity and acrobatic grace of these undead warrior monks goes beyond the capabilities of any mortal.
Blood Monks have the Swiftstrider special rule. Additionally if they charge, all Monks that are in a position to strike make 1 impact hit at their basic strength.
Loyalty to the Clan
Whilst Blood Monks may fight for others they never truly trust them. They are a force apart and will allow only those of their clan to fight by their side[/b]
No characters may join Blood Monk units. Additionally Blood Monks may never use another characters leadership for any reason (such as the General) nor may the benefit from the Battle Standard Bearer
Options:
Upgrade one Blood Monk to Abbot for +25pts. The Abbot as +1I, +1A and his Dragon's bite benefits from the Heroic Killing Blow special rule.
I quite like them, though we need points for them plus the scout upgrade.
I really do not think they should be able to scout. They're already hard to catch, fast, hit hard with ASF and have a shooting attack. I fear any opponent going up against this list might go "Is there anything they can't do?".
Great stuff guys! I like it a lot!! Sorry I was not around these days 
As you know, the scouting option makes tactical sense to me, but Danceman also makes a point. So, I think, the solution rests in a fairly high price, that would keep the balance.
Follow this pure commonsensical and non-mathematical resoning. If they start from the deployment zone you will probably buy, say, 1 more. Since the minimal size is 3, the scouting option may cost 1/3 of wathever price we come up with for the models. So, having 3 with the scout option equals having 4 without it. Seems to me a good deal to satisfy both playing styles (mine and Danceman's). Cost of the unit will probably be more than 150pt anyway. What do you think?
And yes, are they skirmishers?
As you know, the scouting option makes tactical sense to me, but Danceman also makes a point. So, I think, the solution rests in a fairly high price, that would keep the balance.
Follow this pure commonsensical and non-mathematical resoning. If they start from the deployment zone you will probably buy, say, 1 more. Since the minimal size is 3, the scouting option may cost 1/3 of wathever price we come up with for the models. So, having 3 with the scout option equals having 4 without it. Seems to me a good deal to satisfy both playing styles (mine and Danceman's). Cost of the unit will probably be more than 150pt anyway. What do you think?
And yes, are they skirmishers?
If we make Scouting cost more to balance out, then chances are people will not use it anyway. Thinking on it more these guys have a 4+ ward save, plus high movement and Swiftstrider. They will always get a save except against a few odd spells and magic items, so they are more than protected, so they should be able to make it across the battlefield.
So I think we should drop the option for Scouting.
So I think we should drop the option for Scouting.
Erm, yes I assume they are skirmishers though I detest how they operate in the 8th edition. Ok, so we drop the scouting option, put in the special rule of skirmishing - how much should we cost them at?
We really need to wrap this up or the 8th edition will be over before we finish all the Bloodlines!
We really need to wrap this up or the 8th edition will be over before we finish all the Bloodlines!
Yeah, we need to keep moving...
hmm.. cost wise? I dunno... what are they most comparable to? Blood Knights, Minotaurs, etc? I suspect that these are going to be fairly expensive.
hmm.. cost wise? I dunno... what are they most comparable to? Blood Knights, Minotaurs, etc? I suspect that these are going to be fairly expensive.