BA - 8th Edition Review: Strigoi

[Danceman]

I agree it has to work gamewise but there are ways to improve it without putting it all on the bloodline powers. I suppose I better make some concrete suggestions.

Balefire totem/icon: MR1 and adds +1 to dispell to any wizards within 6". The only way to stack this ability is if the source has multiple totems. Can be taken by Crypt Ghouls(RnF or skirmished) 20pts. Court may take Greater Balefire Totem at 45pts which makes increases the range to 8" MR2 and +2 to dispell.

<unnamed chariot> Similiar to a BC but instead have the profile; Insert fluff about cursed earth, skaven and warpstone. Seems to be a re-occuring theme when it comes to Strigoi.
S5 T5 W4 ; 4+ AS. Crewed by 4 ghouls, pulled by 2 Doom wolves; Warpstone Bonfire; -2 to cast for all enemy wizards within 24". Aura of Insanity: Any wizard within 6" who casts a spell with IF will automatically fail and take an S3 with no saves of any kind and counts as magical. Chariot.

The above are just examples but Strigoi have a connection to the rats and warpstone is probably most likely cause for a Strigoi to have any kind of addition magical power.

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I do not understand the objection towards the magical attacks + AP a seperate power though. I will never make my Strigoi a magical creature bar, perhaps, in the way that through something it ate or area it lived in influenced its physiology.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

In regards to a chariot type unit - I wholly dislike the idea. I just can't see anything on wheels being used by the Strigoi or Ghouls, the image really doesn't work IMO.

Balefire Totem could work, but then put it on what? The units do not carry standards and I wouldn't want them to. The direction of the army is away from such things, instead keeping them as a ragtag force relying on hitting hard, certainly not carrying standards around with them.

I don't understand your last point though: "I do not understand the objection towards the magical attacks + AP a seperate power though."

There is no objection to a power that grants magical attacks, indeed we have already done that. I think the question is do people prefer your suggestion, or the powers that we already have that grant magic attacks / defence. Personally I am of the opinion I prefer the powers we already have.

 

[Grish]

Ok, so let's explore some options:

1) Magic banners: I think its safe to say they're out.
2) Magic items: we'd need a suitable character to carry something, or perhaps a unit champion. Possible for the unit champion, but I don't see what kind of character to be included in this army. I dislike the idea of a Hero Ghoul, and having it on a Ghoul Champion just doesn't seem like it'd plug the hole. For a character, perhaps some kind of Old World retainer if I understand their fluff right; but doesn't seem to really fit with the mainstream idea of this blood line (I think they had a kingdom and are reduced to rags; unsure if they'd still have followers?). Magic bauble could work on the Elite Ghouls but even then, ti'd be one unit champion having access to magic items; feels clunky.
3) Unit that has built in magic attacks, or an upgrade to a unit: can't think of any that would be suitable. Maybe a Varghulf upgrade or something. Ghouls that have magic attacks would feel like radioactive ghouls to me; while cool in a movie context, I don't think this fits the fluff.
4) Vampire item/bloodline: while it doesn't seem to fit that well under here, I can't think of anywhere else. It seems the best option to me.
5) Screw magic defence and have the best defence is a good offence. Possible, but hard to balance. If the enemy brings heavy magic, should be able to compete. If the enemy brings hardly any magic, this army might be overwhelming if this is the strategy we have.

Out of these options, I prefer 3 and 4. 5 is too ambitious I think. 2 I can't think of a suitable character. 3 might be ok but I cannot think of a unit in a Strigoi army that has access to magic attacks. Certainly would have to be some inherent trait or a result of warpstone; I don't picture their troops having access to Ethereal weapons.

For brainstorming, just throw ideas out there to be shot down. Doesn't matter if they're good or not.

Possible unit upgrade for ghouls or something similar: Ethereal hounds. Could provide some kind of benefits to the unit such as magical attacks, magic defence, Terror, etc.

May be lame, but thats all I got right now. I should start reading some warhammer books...

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Reading through your suggestions Grish, I too agree I do not like the options of magical Ghouls or even the Ghouls carrying items. It seems to be further away from the fluff IMO, than vampires who have been twisted by their hatred to have a detrimental affect to magic.

I vote for the vamp powers to retain the ability to grant magical attacks / negate enemy magic.

 

[Danceman]

1. I wasn't suggesting magic items to ghouls.
2. Totems aren't standards or items nor do they grant magic attacks.
3. The chariot can easily be made to be a big bonfire a la casket of souls/herdstone shard.

However, if we opt for these powers. I'd like to see the the magic attacks removed, cost reduced. 3rd ability with Magic attacks and AP.

I probably was a bit dramatic my post here. So, let me rephrase it. I understand game balance when you're dealing with ubercharacters but to make up stuff in order to cover for a weakness the army should have is not good in my book. I mean, this bloodline is sort of dear to me. Had a lot of fun with it in the old book. I went all out and pretty much had nothing in the way of magic defence. Sure, it wasn't easy but that is the way of fluff. You're taking the background, apply to a list and do the best you can with what you have. If this project is taking a new direction and is headed towards the gaming aspect whilst ignoring fluff I'd like to know this right here and now. Hmmm, this isn't that much of a big deal, heh. I think I'll just not use these when playing. Still, a bit of a thorn in my side but meh!

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I understand where you are coming from Dancey - you have a set idea in your mind of Strigoi fluff and of course you want to try and remain as close to the fluff as possible. I agree we are trying to make this list as close to the fluff as possible, as we have tried to do across all the lists.

But when we speak about weaknesses there are two types:

Workable weaknesses: Such as VC with no shooting. Them not having shooting does not detriment them to the point where they face possible annihilation because of it. It can reasonably be accommodated by vahels to move in faster, IoN to recover etc, if you so choose that route. You can also purchase armour, Flag of the Blood Keep etc.

Critical weaknesses: This is when the weakness goes to a point, where if exploited it means it is very unlikely the army stand any chance of winning. This in my eyes is what magic is defence in this army. With the new 8th edition magic being even more powerful than before, the Strigoi suffer to the point where it needs a counter somewhere. They cannot take anything to increase their magical defense, they cannot do anything to improve their normal magic levels (past the lords option) or gain any casting bonuses. They cannot do anything to boost their magic efficiency at all, meaning they will find it hard to recover via IoN etc after a magical attack.

In addition not having anything in the army that dishes out some kind of magical attack, means that a 10 man unit if wraiths could walk right through them, especially as they have little static CR.


This is why the decision was to make a counter that players could take. I wholeheartedly agree that if it was weakness wasn't as drastic, then nothing should be done to fix it. However this is not the case.

As for the fluff, well that is all the matter of perspective. You may think different, however to me it makes perfect sense for a twisted Strigoi who has been persecuted by a vampire using magic for so long, that they develop an innate resistance to it, in the same they have they developed physical resistance.

Finally, as you said if necessary players do not have to take the power if they really want to stick to a pure fluff list. However to make the list workable we should at least provide the option.

 

[Danceman]

As for the fluff, well that is all the matter of perspective. You may think different, however to me it makes perfect sense for a twisted Strigoi who has been persecuted by a vampire using magic for so long, that they develop an innate resistance to it, in the same they have they developed physical resistance.

It is this which is my issue. You can end up with pretty much anything you want if you go down this route. The physical resistence is a natural effect, it is their blood so I'd say it is far from the same as out of the blue developing a magical resistence. What I find possible is irrelevant, it is not my universe. GW laid down the conditions and background. It is a long stretch between possible and probable to something actually happending. In effect, the Strigoi blood would have been significantly altered.

The other options of which I presented does infact go along with what we know of the Strigoi. Twisted feasts and unholy grounds, and so on. The point of the Bloodlines was that there was a defining factor. A strength and a weakness. Which is why I disliked the new book so very much. It blurred the line and dropped all the flavour. Nevermind that it is implied that everything in the book is infact 100% Von Carstein.

I recognise the above problem hence the point I am making about Warpstone(or balefire), skaven and crypt ghouls. It is more than likely that the Strigoi vampire have hoarded many kinds of skaven weaponry. Therefor it is not unlikely for the ghouls to faishon crude fetishes and such of the shiny green stuff. Not counting as banners it does at least keep within a plausable and existing background point. This would deal with the lack of levels by increasing dispell attemps, add a bit of protection VS spells. A Strigoi with, lets say a greater totem would have +5 to dispell and a mere level 1 would have +3 to dispell. The MR would also grant them better saves VS spells.

If this isn't sufficient we could have the bonfires which are stationary and provide a battlefield-wide negative effect. Nothing too amazing as then the synergy between the totems and bonfire would be too good, to the point where their magic defence isn't weak anymore but actually very strong! So there is a way anchored more closely to the fluff.

 

[Bishop]

1) No Chariots!!!

I also dislike the idea of a "chariot" type of unit... seems entirely too "organized" too me

2) Fast Cav / Scout unit

I'm not really a fan of the Ghoul/Bat riders either! If you do decide to go that route, then the point cost need to be jacked up... a LOT! Look at the cost of other multi-wound/flying models... I'm sure that there are more, but the only one I know of is Bret Pegasi Knights. These are 55 points a model!!

I'll say it again... I'd much rather see something like the Garghoul conversions that were floating around. Some kind of flying ghoul hybrid/mutation. I'd keep the unit small-ish (like 5-15 models) since it would be a skirmishing flying unit... this is even MORE important if they have multi-wounds. Though, I think that a single wound with a small save would be fine as well, and would help keep the cost down.

3) Balance - Magic

I agree. If something is a minor weakness/inconvenience, then awesome! However, as stated by others, the magic gap in 8th rules is probably too huge to be considered an inconvenience. So, something is required to fill this gap/void.

I also agree with Grish. Either an elite type unit/upgrade to fill the void of "magical" attacks by the loss of Grave Guard (if we go that route), and/or some Vampire type options seem to be the most viable solutions.

4) Balance - Other

I was thinking about a few other balance issues. Is the army going to be able to deal with the mission that requires Standards? (sry, no brb atm). The "totem" idea could fill that role. Also, might need to look at/reword the ability(s) that grant/count as a BSB, to ensure that they are "counted" for this purpose as well.


It's great to see all the input in here, as of late. Keep it coming!

(oh why, oh why didn't we do the von Carstein thread earlier/1st... it would have been by far the shortest )

 

[Montesque]

I based the cost on the Bat riders on the Lizardmen's Teradon riders, who are about 30 pts each, so I think something around that would be a suitable cost, if we still want to use them at all, anyway. Could someone post a link or something to those garghouls everyone is talking about? I keep seeing them mentioned as a possible option for fast attack, but honestly I have no idea what exactly they are. Personally, it seems to me that a mutant, flying ghoul is less likely than ghouls learning to ride fellow carrion eaters, but whichever the group decides will be fine, I'm sure

No to the chariot

In regards to Danceman's problems in regards to the fluff/magic weapons synergy, it seems to me that both sides have good points. On the one hand, I think that our basis for our powers, as it is now, is a little weak. On the other, I think the powers we HAVE already come up with are a great start, and something worth playtesting before declaring them no good. Perhaps, then, if we combine Danceman's fluff (they collect magic weapons, live in warpstone heavy areas) with the powers (living in warpstone-heavy areas causes them to mutate, giving them glowy green claws or turn into spider-vampires or something), it would be an acceptable compromise? I see no reason that the surroundings that Dance mentions couldn't be the source of their magic. And as for Hatred of the Arcane, perhaps their long exposure to it has made them resistant to it, and able to suppress it for a limited time?

It kind of seems that Danceman's saying that magic defense could become a strength for the Strigoi might actually be something we want to look out for...as in avoiding it. That just doesn't seem at all right, that the Strigoi horde as a whole would be particularly resistant to magic, any more so than any other vampire. If ANY army seems likely to be really good against magic, it'd be the Necromancers or the Necrarchs, in my mind.

The standard thing...could be a problem, yeah. Not sure what to do about it, however...other than giving ghouls the option, in the Strigoi army, to take standards? We've already put forward the idea that the Strigoi ghouls are a little different than normal ghouls with the Free Will rule, adding the ability to have banners (or full command) doesn't seem too terribly farfetched from there.

 

[Danceman]

Ah, the totems would just be unit upgrades not standards. Like something glowy they like just being dragged around in a "oooo, shiny" type of faishon.

I approve of the compromise. I guess I got a bit of a tunnelvision there because why should the effects only cause them to grow sharp talons? You'll have no further objections from me on this part. I am getting some fallout 3 images in my head right now

 

[Bishop]

Here's the concept.. I'm sure that there are some better pics, somewhere... but this should give you the general idea.

edit:
Here's are some in a unit. I believe that ppl were using these as "fell bats".

 

[Sweeney Todd]

Funny how I get this sense of deja vu from reading Dancey's posts, since I made some of the very arguments he is making a few weeks back .

After that we start to diverge though. You may think it doesn't fit the fluff to have a horde of magically resistant ghouls, but if you take a closer look Magic Resistance is actually quite worthless in 8ed. It provides zero protection against Purple Sun or Dwellers' Below, nor does it do anything about your opponent hexing your units. You could give the whole army MR(1) for free and I still won't be impressed. This is a (in fact, the defining flaw) of 8th Edition itself though, so we shouldn't think about this and end up overcompensating.

I don't mind the totem mechanic but the anti-magic bloodline powers will probably have to be reduced if that comes into play. We still want it to be a weakness, just not such a glaring one. And definitely no to chariots.

Also, the Bat Riders are definitely not worth as much as a Pegasus Knight. Keep in mind the Knight has a much better statline, a lance, 3+ armor save and usually has a Ward save as well. A cost similar to Terradon Riders is about right, IMO. Also, did nobody see my suggestion for poisoned throwing spears? What do you guys think?

 

[Bishop]

I'll have to dig out a LM book and have a look then

 

[Montesque]

I've been mulling over the throwing spears idea. It sounds nifty, but at the same time I have two problems with it: Firstly, it makes them practically almost identical to the Terradon riders with THEIR poisoned ranged weapons, and secondly it will give them +1 S on the charge, since presumably they would also count as spears, and that may or may not require their points to be increased fairly significantly when combined with the poisoned ranged attacks.

If everyone's okay with it I won't argue, but it just doesn't seem to fit, to me anyway.

Oh, and someone asked what the justification for the bat riders having terror would be, and it was just stuck in there in order to a) make the -1 LD mean more and b) because it seemed thematically appropriate for people to be fleeing from this hellish racket swooping down to tear them apart, seeking to eat their flesh, etc. But if we just want to stick them with normal fear, that's cool too. Heh.

 

[Bishop]

Vengeance Riders - ??pts

Ghouls: M 4/ WS 3/ BS 0/ S 3/ T 4/ W 2/ I 3/ A 2/ LD 5
Ghast: M 4/ WS 3/ BS 0/ S 3/ T 4/ W 2/ I 3/ A 3/ LD 5
Felbat M 1/ WS 3/ BS 0/ S 3/ T -/ W -/ I 3/ A 2/ LD 3

Equipment: Filthy claws, teeth, and a hideous amount of racket.

Options:
25 pts, one ghoul may be upgraded to a ghast for +5 points. Unit Size 3 - 10

Special Rules:
Flying Cavalry
Free Will
Poisoned attacks (ghouls & ghast only)
Screech
Fear

Screech: On the turn this unit successfully charges, any non-undead unit in the target combat suffers -1 to their leadership for that turn due to the horrible combination of the fell bats shrieking and the ghouls depraved howls.
(this also applies to any fear tests that might be required by the charge itself.)

Statline - I'd prefer to see something like the Terradon Riders and have a "combined" statline. It's simpler.

I'd suggest something like this:
Ghoul + Bat: M 4/ WS 3/ BS 0 / S 3 / T 4 / W 2 / I 3 / A 3 / LD 5
Ghast + Bat: M 4/ WS 3/ BS 0 / S 3 / T 4 / W 2 / I 3 / A 4 / LD 5

Switch Terror to Fear... Terror is TOO much.

I'd say that the Terradon riders cost is probably about right too. (Which I won't post here... but it's 1/5th the cost of a Varghulf )

- lose Hit and Run, ranged poison attacks, and Coldblooded.
- gain Screech, ranged poison CC attacks, Unstable/Unbreakable, Fear


If you guys "want" to use this unit... I'm not the biggest fan... but to each his own.

 

[Montesque]

The combined statline might not work, unfortunately, unless we want to justify giving the Fel Bats poisoned attacks?

Everything else seems fair, however. Oh, and I was looking over what we have for the list of powers again, and either I misunderstood the rules for the bloodline armies, or we don't really need to specify that the Court of the Ghoul King can't be overraised by Summon Ghouls, b/c we never gave the Strigoi Summon Ghouls in the first place! Now, if my previous impression that a bloodline vamp can only be given the powers on his bloodline list is incorrect, I would dearly love to know that...If not, then we can probably do away with that qualifyer.

I've seen a couple of folks unhappy with the Vengeance Riders conceptually, and recommending the Garghouls. If someone could put forward a possible statline for them rather that just the concept, it would probably be helpful. Or, alternatively, we could use the unified statline above to represent a garghoul? Just some thoughts.

 

[Bishop]

Well, it would depend largely on what we want the unit to be. Do we want a multi-wound flying unit like Terradon Riders... or something more like Harpies (maybe even multi wound, at appropriate cost)?

Power for the Bloodlines can be taken from the COMMON Bloodline list as well as their own Bloodline specific list.. (indeed LotD, Summon Ghouls, and SCotN are in there)

 

[Montesque]

Ah, thanks for the reminder, Bishop, I'd forgotten about the common list.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Personally I don't the combining of the stat lines. I like have the two separate stat lines like normal cav, I very much dislike the streamlining or dumbing down that some of the later GW books have.

I would go with:

Vengeance Riders - 15pts

Ghouls: M 4/ WS 3/ BS 0/ S 3/ T 4/ W 2/ I 3/ A 2/ LD 5
Ghast: M 4/ WS 3/ BS 0/ S 3/ T 4/ W 2/ I 3/ A 3/ LD 6
Felbat M 1/ WS 3/ BS 0/ S 3/ T -/ W -/ I 3/ A 2/ LD 3

Equipment: Filthy claws, teeth, and a hideous amount of racket.

Options:
One ghoul may be upgraded to a ghast for +15 points. Unit Size 3 - 10

Special Rules:
Flying Cavalry
Free Will
Poisoned attacks (ghouls & ghast only)
Screech
Fear

Screech: On the turn this unit successfully charges, any non-undead unit in the target combat suffers -1 to their leadership for that turn due to the horrible combination of the fell bats shrieking and the ghouls depraved howls.
(this also applies to any fear tests that might be required by the charge itself.)


I like the imagery of it, the rules are not overlay cumbersome. Good unit IMO.

In regards to the anti-magic, what is the general consensus? I am fine with use Dancey's fluff if that is preferable. As mentioned above though, we need to go with one or the other. Either vampire powers or unit upgrades, as both is going to give them much of a magic defence.

Personally I still think the vamp powers are the way to go. I can see a Strigoi mutated by nearby warpstone interfering with magic / affecting ethereal creatures, more than I can Ghouls bringing along "shinies" to battle when they are looking for food.

Perhaps we could reach a happy medium by introducing a 3rd custom unit though? Rare choice, these are mutated Ghouls who have grown stronger etc. Would essentially be Ghouls with Ogre type stats, you could have them with magical attacks?

 

[Montesque]

Eh...I don't know that the extra rare unit is necessary...Glad you like the Vengeance Riders though
I also prefer the powers to more/different unit options.

Lastly, I do prefer Dancey's fluff to what we originally had.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Great - it looks like we are getting somewhere

Any other comments?

 

[Bishop]

Well, they have to be at LEAST 35 pts a model. I think 4 atks each is too much, which is why I was going for a combined 3 (which is what most models like that have... ie. Terradon Riders and Pegasus Knights).

I don't think that a 3rd custom unit is needed. I'd say fill in the gaps with powers and leave it at 1-2 new units per list. Keeps it easier. The idea is to make Bloodline armies useable with the VC lists... not to make new lists :tongue:

 

[Sweeney Todd]

Pfffftttttt, 4 attacks per model is no big deal, especially when it's only S3 and only 2 of the attacks are poisoned. The points cost will need an increase, yes, but there's nothing wrong with a model inherently having 4 attacks.

I second Bishop on the lack of a need for a 3rd custom unit though. Think we're straying a bit too far on that one.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Ok, so can we agree on the following final:

Vengeance Riders - 35pts per model

Ghouls: M 4/ WS 3/ BS 0/ S 3/ T 4/ W 2/ I 3/ A 2/ LD 5
Ghast: M 4/ WS 3/ BS 0/ S 3/ T 4/ W 2/ I 3/ A 3/ LD 6
Felbat M 1/ WS 3/ BS 0/ S 3/ T -/ W -/ I 3/ A 2/ LD 3

Equipment: Filthy claws, teeth, and a hideous amount of racket.

Options:
One ghoul may be upgraded to a ghast for +15 points. Unit Size 3 - 10

Special Rules:
Flying Cavalry
Free Will
Poisoned attacks (ghouls & ghast only)
Screech
Fear

Screech: On the turn this unit successfully charges, any non-undead unit in the target combat suffers -1 to their leadership for that turn due to the horrible combination of the fell bats shrieking and the ghouls depraved howls.
(this also applies to any fear tests that might be required by the charge itself.)

 

[Bishop]

I'd change Screech to this:

Screech: On the turn this unit successfully charges, any enemy unit in combat with Vengeance Riders suffers -1 to their leadership for that turn due to the horrible combination of the fell bats shrieking and the ghouls depraved howls. Units which are Immune to Psychology are unaffected. (This penalty also applies to any Fear tests that might be required by the charge itself.)