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Age of sigmar
- Thread starter El Syf
- Start date
The Warhammer world was a setting with an inconsistent tone, and it's rather facetious to claim it was 'dark dark grimdark' and nothing else. It had its goofy, silly, humorous bits, and denying that aspect to focus only on the grimdark to me does the setting a disservice. It's a setting for a game. Frankly, imo, the fun stuff was the better stuff, and the grim stuff was a poor fit, and when taken too far it undermined the setting's purpose for the sake of assuaging the self conscious insecurities of grown ups embarrassed to be playing with toys.
IMO, it didn't make Warhammer deeper or more meaningful. More often than not, the darkest elements were just unpleasant for unpleasantness's sake. Give me the goofy football hooligan orcs & goblins, self destructive skaven, cartoon slapstick violence, and warhammer armies that are just as likely to build a stadium and resolve their differences with a rousing game of bloodbowl as they are with an actual battle.
IMO, it didn't make Warhammer deeper or more meaningful. More often than not, the darkest elements were just unpleasant for unpleasantness's sake. Give me the goofy football hooligan orcs & goblins, self destructive skaven, cartoon slapstick violence, and warhammer armies that are just as likely to build a stadium and resolve their differences with a rousing game of bloodbowl as they are with an actual battle.
It's own ofshoot within the warhammer setting. Or are you telling me Mordheim doesn't count, either? And there were plenty of other fun, goofy elements of the Warhammer setting within the main game. It was not 'dark fantasy', it was 'everything fantasy', shoving in anything including the kitchen sink regardless of how well it all did or did not fit together. Latching onto the dark and ignoring the silly is no more inherently valid than doing the opposite.
'Cannon' or not, it's Warhammer material, from the source. Not a third party parody, and whatever reasons you have for disregarding bloodbowl don't apply to sillier elements of Warhammer Fantasy itself. Regardless of how you cut it, the warhammer world wasn't 'Dark Fantasy', it was 'Everything Fantasy', in an attempt to appeal to the broadest possible range of fantasy archetypes, resulting in an anarchic, scattered, and frequently contradictory tone rather than any sort of unified singular vision, because Warhammer was always a backdrop for a game, not a coherent fictional world following any sort of unified vision.
The Warhammer World was not a work of art of and into itself. It is not a master's painting to hang in a gallery. It is, and has always been, a painted stage backdrop, the work of countless nameless stage hands, there to add just a layer of verisimilitude and immersion to the action of the play, a backdrop re-lit to match the tone of whatever scene happened to be playing out in the moment whether comedic or tragic. It is no great loss to the ages when it is repainted to set the stage for a new play, once the curtain has fallen on the old.
The Warhammer World was not a work of art of and into itself. It is not a master's painting to hang in a gallery. It is, and has always been, a painted stage backdrop, the work of countless nameless stage hands, there to add just a layer of verisimilitude and immersion to the action of the play, a backdrop re-lit to match the tone of whatever scene happened to be playing out in the moment whether comedic or tragic. It is no great loss to the ages when it is repainted to set the stage for a new play, once the curtain has fallen on the old.
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2013
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So instead of "he who has built the most poweful or well-rounded force," it becomes "who has collected the largest number of models, such that they can play just the right counter to each drop by their opponent."
How is that not "pay-to-win"?
It wasn't fully balanced. But it was *somewhat* balanced. And the fact that it never achieved full balance was GW's fault, for not adequately playtesting lists before their release and treating point values as immutable once said book was shipped to the printers. Or not releasing additional models for each faction save every 5-10 years when they got an armybook update.
Bullshit. It was the reduced return attacks (no supporting to side), negation of parry saves, negation of ranks, and if fighting in 2 sides, inability to combat reform that made flank/rear attacks so devastating. That can be a swing of +10CR easily, once you factor in negated ranks and avoided return wounds.
And yet, without it you can only get half as many models into attack range. If they can even get into attack range at all.
How is that not "pay-to-win"?
It wasn't fully balanced. But it was *somewhat* balanced. And the fact that it never achieved full balance was GW's fault, for not adequately playtesting lists before their release and treating point values as immutable once said book was shipped to the printers. Or not releasing additional models for each faction save every 5-10 years when they got an armybook update.
Bullshit. It was the reduced return attacks (no supporting to side), negation of parry saves, negation of ranks, and if fighting in 2 sides, inability to combat reform that made flank/rear attacks so devastating. That can be a swing of +10CR easily, once you factor in negated ranks and avoided return wounds.
And yet, without it you can only get half as many models into attack range. If they can even get into attack range at all.
This is not a personal attack so please don't take it that way but you yourself have made comments. I'm not about to wade through pages of threads to locate them as I've already spent far too much time browsing as it is. You've called those who won't try AoS "stubborn" among other things and it was you who went into the first KoW thread telling people to try AoS, which was irrelevant to the topic. Again, please don't take offense, I am honestly saying this because it pertains to what we are discussing.
As I've said in my previous post, the majority of vets on other forums (and this one as well as Mr. West has pointed out) are staying away from the new system. They have as much or slightly less experience than you do, some may have only been around for a decade or so but reading through the rules a few times and looking at various armies' warscrolls is all the analysis one needs to come to a decision about AoS. A player can see enough play out in his head without actually having to playtest as it's far easier to do so the way the new system is.
No, I won't see every single nuance of the game but I've seen far more than enough to make my judgment. I even played four matches and watched a few at another club. Everything I believed after perusing the rules turned out to be (unsurprisingly) true after playing it. I really don't want to list all the reasons why I dislike AoS because they've been talked about by plenty of others all over the WH forums and I've already moved on. I stayed quiet on CN for the most part aside from posting various comps I found and "liking" some comments here and there. I only jumped in now because there were things that had to be addressed.
I want to see the camaraderie come back as well but all of us need to take a breath, check what we've typed and remove the insults and condescending remarks from our posts before Replying. This was the greatest forum on the net and it was a refuge from other sites where moderators didn't care what happened on their watch and I wasn't shot to death for the advice I gave on army lists. Things have been bumpy of late but I know we can right the ship. CN is one of the most popular forums for GW gaming (because vampires are cooler than everyone else...except for Tomb Kings, no one is cooler than Tomb Kings) and is definitely one of the more active ones today. You, Sun and Demian put a ton of work into your Guides to which we are all very grateful. We have a lot of friendly helpful people here and we can definitely keep 8th alive alongside AoS.
As I've said in my previous post, the majority of vets on other forums (and this one as well as Mr. West has pointed out) are staying away from the new system. They have as much or slightly less experience than you do, some may have only been around for a decade or so but reading through the rules a few times and looking at various armies' warscrolls is all the analysis one needs to come to a decision about AoS. A player can see enough play out in his head without actually having to playtest as it's far easier to do so the way the new system is.
No, I won't see every single nuance of the game but I've seen far more than enough to make my judgment. I even played four matches and watched a few at another club. Everything I believed after perusing the rules turned out to be (unsurprisingly) true after playing it. I really don't want to list all the reasons why I dislike AoS because they've been talked about by plenty of others all over the WH forums and I've already moved on. I stayed quiet on CN for the most part aside from posting various comps I found and "liking" some comments here and there. I only jumped in now because there were things that had to be addressed.
I want to see the camaraderie come back as well but all of us need to take a breath, check what we've typed and remove the insults and condescending remarks from our posts before Replying. This was the greatest forum on the net and it was a refuge from other sites where moderators didn't care what happened on their watch and I wasn't shot to death for the advice I gave on army lists. Things have been bumpy of late but I know we can right the ship. CN is one of the most popular forums for GW gaming (because vampires are cooler than everyone else...except for Tomb Kings, no one is cooler than Tomb Kings) and is definitely one of the more active ones today. You, Sun and Demian put a ton of work into your Guides to which we are all very grateful. We have a lot of friendly helpful people here and we can definitely keep 8th alive alongside AoS.
No more grim dark that actual real history. Flaying, weaponised rape during war time, incest, crowds tearing people into pieces... standard stuff really!
Standard fantasy is heavily based on Medieval settings, which in of itself is already a crapsack world.
Warhammer is about as high fantasy as you can get. Just because it is High Fantasy does not mean it can't have dark aspects to it. But it also has its wonderfully zany/kooky moments as well, which you can't over look.
The other difference is the narrative of particular characters. Dark fantasy tends to be a lot more nuanced. Whereas, say to use your example of Malekith... they couldn't have made him any more a characature of a spoiled brat vengeful scarred mommy's boy if they'd tried. Lots of stereotypes and lots of common tropes, sometimes subverted but for the most part played straight up.
Standard fantasy is heavily based on Medieval settings, which in of itself is already a crapsack world.
Warhammer is about as high fantasy as you can get. Just because it is High Fantasy does not mean it can't have dark aspects to it. But it also has its wonderfully zany/kooky moments as well, which you can't over look.
The other difference is the narrative of particular characters. Dark fantasy tends to be a lot more nuanced. Whereas, say to use your example of Malekith... they couldn't have made him any more a characature of a spoiled brat vengeful scarred mommy's boy if they'd tried. Lots of stereotypes and lots of common tropes, sometimes subverted but for the most part played straight up.
I agree with all your points and want to keep 8th alive too. Only one I disagree with is myself going into KoW threads and pushing AoS. I've purposely avoided commenting on KoW, until I was directly asked, and each time I took the position of hey each their own, here is my personal opinion. I haven't put any posts promoting AoS in a KoW thread.
The anti-AoS pro-KoW bunch were doing what you are describing and moderators other than myself are aware of it. But I watch dog every post I make balancing between being transparent, honest and respectful with staying back, letting members have freedoms and feel it's safe to speak their minds.
I want to heal the divide, just as you do. My efforts that have been misconstrued are just that. Hoping to get us all back on the same page. I can see that I've possible have been to heavy handed in my replies. I will keep all of this in mind as it wasn't my intent to come off that way.
For the record, and you can ask the other mods, I've been supportive of KoW and the members who want to play it. My position is we keep 8th alive as our shared system, with AoS and KoW being each groups "other" game.
The anti-AoS pro-KoW bunch were doing what you are describing and moderators other than myself are aware of it. But I watch dog every post I make balancing between being transparent, honest and respectful with staying back, letting members have freedoms and feel it's safe to speak their minds.
I want to heal the divide, just as you do. My efforts that have been misconstrued are just that. Hoping to get us all back on the same page. I can see that I've possible have been to heavy handed in my replies. I will keep all of this in mind as it wasn't my intent to come off that way.
For the record, and you can ask the other mods, I've been supportive of KoW and the members who want to play it. My position is we keep 8th alive as our shared system, with AoS and KoW being each groups "other" game.
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- Nov 13, 2013
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- 927
8th is a dead system. We can keep it on life support, but without official support it will wither away like Warmaster, Necromunda, Battlefleet Gothic, and all the other specialty games eventually did. There will be no FLGS owners or GW managers pimping WHFB 8th. Models will need to be sourced from a variety of sources. It's a pipe dream.
So far as I can see, there are only two real paths forward for people in this hobby who want to keep using their undead armies. One is Kings of War. One is Age of Sigmar. Each has their aspects that appeal to different folks, and neither is going to be able to capture everything that WHFB meant to people.
The community is going to fracture. I'm seeing it in my local meta, and hearing it happening in communities all over the world. And seeing it happen here. No good can come from fighting it...only from figuring out how to move forward and salvage as much of this sense of community as we can.
Whether it's Age of Sigmar, Kings of War, or some kind of WHFB Classic, we all share love for the same undead aesthetic. The same general style. I think it's worth saving this community, even if it becomes a community for a score of different games. Especially since it is possible to use our same miniatures across all of these different games.
So why don't we embrace that and start creating some new sections for these new games? Age of Sigmar, Kings of War, Warhammer Classic. Keep a shared general discussion board, shared hobby/painting logs, but separate the tactics, rules, etc.
So far as I can see, there are only two real paths forward for people in this hobby who want to keep using their undead armies. One is Kings of War. One is Age of Sigmar. Each has their aspects that appeal to different folks, and neither is going to be able to capture everything that WHFB meant to people.
The community is going to fracture. I'm seeing it in my local meta, and hearing it happening in communities all over the world. And seeing it happen here. No good can come from fighting it...only from figuring out how to move forward and salvage as much of this sense of community as we can.
Whether it's Age of Sigmar, Kings of War, or some kind of WHFB Classic, we all share love for the same undead aesthetic. The same general style. I think it's worth saving this community, even if it becomes a community for a score of different games. Especially since it is possible to use our same miniatures across all of these different games.
So why don't we embrace that and start creating some new sections for these new games? Age of Sigmar, Kings of War, Warhammer Classic. Keep a shared general discussion board, shared hobby/painting logs, but separate the tactics, rules, etc.
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Come on guys, no matter how long your posts are, you are all still just picking up the machine gun already sitting in the trench. Let it rest.
@Pirate Robot Ninja of Death Yes! We are already working on the new subforums but the owner of this site @Disciple of Nagash has not yet arisen from his deep torpor so sadly we cannot create the new subforums as of yet.
@Pirate Robot Ninja of Death Yes! We are already working on the new subforums but the owner of this site @Disciple of Nagash has not yet arisen from his deep torpor so sadly we cannot create the new subforums as of yet.
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@Pirate Robot Ninja of Death Like Sunny said, we've had a thread rolling in the True Blood board for a spell now spitballing ideas for new forums. It all has to wait until DoN has time to come 'round, though.
Wow, what a well composed statement, and without any camp needing to be insulted 
Of course, I agree that everyone's true common ground is in interest to undead lords and meandering corpses. And for the record, when I suggested that players be making their own rules, I wasn't exclusively meaning to mold AoS into what they need it to be. I am referring to the chance that, if someone loved the values of Warhammer-That-Was enough they could potentially build a game dedicated in it's honor. I doubt it'd be a terribly successful business, but it could be a worthy community pet project, much like how some of the specialist games persist even still.
But like the others have said, it's a not a matter of disagreeing with the need to create subforums as much as a lack of permission.
Somehow I doubt skeletons would care of lashings. Try a hammer instead, they hate shatter-y things.
Of course, I agree that everyone's true common ground is in interest to undead lords and meandering corpses. And for the record, when I suggested that players be making their own rules, I wasn't exclusively meaning to mold AoS into what they need it to be. I am referring to the chance that, if someone loved the values of Warhammer-That-Was enough they could potentially build a game dedicated in it's honor. I doubt it'd be a terribly successful business, but it could be a worthy community pet project, much like how some of the specialist games persist even still.
But like the others have said, it's a not a matter of disagreeing with the need to create subforums as much as a lack of permission.
Somehow I doubt skeletons would care of lashings. Try a hammer instead, they hate shatter-y things.
So far the WD highlights have just been a few images that are mostly already in the larger Campaign-style book they just released, with a handful of lore nuggets to entice people's interest. They haven't been terribly revealing, just tid bits to hold over people as the slow Eternals releases continue. Although many of the models are rather interesting in themselves, it's a bit sad to only catch single kits each week. I'm interested, but it's almost too slow to keep interest. And I'd certainly love to see other armies see any love.
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I wonder if a Warhammer: Kings of War mod might get more folks on board. More magic items, more and bigger spells, perhaps a break in the hard "only interact and make decisions on your turn," intended for tournament play. Might make it more palatable to casual gamers, and those who like a bit more sizzle with their steak.