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Age of sigmar

Malisteen

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So far the WD highlights have just been a few images that are mostly already in the larger Campaign-style book they just released, with a handful of lore nuggets to entice people's interest. They haven't been terribly revealing, just tid bits to hold over people as the slow Eternals releases continue. Although many of the models are rather interesting in themselves, it's a bit sad to only catch single kits each week. I'm interested, but it's almost too slow to keep interest. And I'd certainly love to see other armies see any love.
It certainly has been too slow. This is not how to launch a new game. I know they're leaning on the existing fantasy line, but to not have more than one updated faction ready on release, and to draw that faction out for over a month, just seems like a terrible way to handle it. Then again, while I may like Age of Sigmar in general, the handling has felt pretty terrible to me most of the way through, but even my gaming community's somewhat perplexingly positive reception of AoS is starting to waver at this point.

I'll be picking up the next white dwarf with the Death lore in it, but I don't expect anything more than was in the campaign book, which really doesn't offer much to sink one's teeth into.
 

najo

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I seriously didn't know those posts were in that thread. If you go through the thread you will notice I don't continue to do that. I'm remembering earlier when things were first going on, their was some points I was replying on my phone instead of a computer or tablet, and on my phone it's setup up completely different and difficult to see all the info. My apologies, I have honestly tried to be very respectful with this whole mess.

On a side note, my whole tone in the two messages is one of trying to be positive and welcoming, if it's not obvious.
 

najo

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8th is a dead system. We can keep it on life support, but without official support it will wither away like Warmaster, Necromunda, Battlefleet Gothic, and all the other specialty games eventually did. There will be no FLGS owners or GW managers pimping WHFB 8th. Models will need to be sourced from a variety of sources. It's a pipe dream.

So far as I can see, there are only two real paths forward for people in this hobby who want to keep using their undead armies. One is Kings of War. One is Age of Sigmar. Each has their aspects that appeal to different folks, and neither is going to be able to capture everything that WHFB meant to people.

The community is going to fracture. I'm seeing it in my local meta, and hearing it happening in communities all over the world. And seeing it happen here. No good can come from fighting it...only from figuring out how to move forward and salvage as much of this sense of community as we can.

Whether it's Age of Sigmar, Kings of War, or some kind of WHFB Classic, we all share love for the same undead aesthetic. The same general style. I think it's worth saving this community, even if it becomes a community for a score of different games. Especially since it is possible to use our same miniatures across all of these different games.

So why don't we embrace that and start creating some new sections for these new games? Age of Sigmar, Kings of War, Warhammer Classic. Keep a shared general discussion board, shared hobby/painting logs, but separate the tactics, rules, etc.
Fantasy is still going to have miniatures produced for the foreseeable future, there are tons of alternatives for miniatures (including kings of war, which was part of the problem) and blood bowl has a living ruleset and tournaments still held for it. If personally like to see 8th go that direction.
 

najo

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I wonder if a Warhammer: Kings of War mod might get more folks on board. More magic items, more and bigger spells, perhaps a break in the hard "only interact and make decisions on your turn," intended for tournament play. Might make it more palatable to casual gamers, and those who like a bit more sizzle with their steak.
The amount of work to go in to make KoW replace Warhammer 8th, it would be easier to keep 8th alive then get people to accept KoW mods that make KoW into Warhammer. I want my Mortarchs and lores of magic! Plus Nagash is only in one place, and many of us are loyal disciples of the great necromancer ;)
 

Tawg

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The amount of work to go in to make KoW replace Warhammer 8th, it would be easier to keep 8th alive then get people to accept KoW mods that make KoW into Warhammer. I want my Mortarchs and lores of magic! Plus Nagash is only in one place, and many of us are loyal disciples of the great necromancer ;)
I dunno. I haven't looked into KoW terribly much, I'll admit, but I prefer AoS most on the grounds of freedom. And while the game leaves much to be desired for many players due to simplicity, I would personally find it more palatable to ascend the game to the "high" fantasy setting with magic items and powerful artifacts rather than simply revel in 8th. But I may be in a minority that did not particularly like WHFB's system in the first place.

So I can understand @Pirate Robot Ninja of Death 's idea that you'd want to draw the inspirational points from another system into one you find mostly playable.

Although, at a certain point we might as well make up an entirely new game of it's own. Drawing upon as many "pros" from similar systems that we enjoy.

And just as well, though the simplicity offers freedom in AoS, how simple the mechanics are reduce the potential for effects by a bit. There is certainly ground to be explored from a design perspective, but being restricted to D6, and the shallow range of values presented in that means that many things will eventually find themselves being nearly identical in a mechanical perspective. Like units that are given two weapons to choose in AoS, both with 1" range, 2 Attack, - Rend and 1 Damage but differing in To Hit of 3+/4+ and To Wound of 4+/3+ respectively.

And when items or units lose mechanical differentiation they feel more bland. Which I hear is sort of an issue with KoW, and it's certainly not a strong point for AoS, except that there are a great number of special effects based on re-rolling dice or effects on 6+ results (Those being the more varied form of bonus), and those keep some things fairly distinguished. But what can you do to explain all ranged weapons having 3+/3+/-/1 stats? Some of it is tactical, sure, but at a certain point everything runs into a mush of drollness.
 

Tawg

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It certainly has been too slow. This is not how to launch a new game. I know they're leaning on the existing fantasy line, but to not have more than one updated faction ready on release, and to draw that faction out for over a month, just seems like a terrible way to handle it. Then again, while I may like Age of Sigmar in general, the handling has felt pretty terrible to me most of the way through, but even my gaming community's somewhat perplexity positive reception of AoS is starting to waver at this point.

I'll be picking up the next white dwarf with the Death lore in it, but I don't expect anything more than was in the campaign book, which really doesn't offer much to sink one's teeth into.
I mean, to be fair they have released a fair amount of "Supplement" materials, those stupid dice cups and measuring sticks, the novel and the game-related book. And the Eternals. But it's still something I feel like people would have a huge apatite for immediately, and not feeding that will only force it to starve or find something else tasty. And when I say apatite for, I mean new models. Because everyone wants sweet looking new things, and not just 5-man squads for $50 and solo characters for 35~$. I'm sure everyone loves that Gryphound, but everyone is just wondering how long until there is a box set of just them so they can field units. The Chaos in the starter hasn't even been expanded at all, despite being essentially a new faction (Unless they are just a "re-tolling" of the old Chaos factions).

I just want to see new models that aren't all so aesthetically similar. Granted I think the Eternals are cool, week after week of things that are so similar people not in touch with the hobby might not even understand the difference given a few minutes with the models is bland.
 

Malisteen

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Yeah, the prices are a bit nuts, and I'm mostly just kind of bored. It's looking like it will be over a year before we see anything interesting and new for the undead in Age of Sigmar. I'm not sure I'll still care when that happens.

They really should have rolled out something for each of the 'big four' categories (order, chaos, destruction, death) more or less immediately, along with a campaign opener that pushed all of them, instead of the rather narrow opening we got.

IMO, they really missed a trick in not following the Privateer model of campaign based expansions that very specifically have something for each of their game's factions to get invested in. One or two new things for everyone for each big new release is an infinitely superior model to GW's typical 'drag out one faction for a couple months where nobody else is getting anything interesting, then put that faction on the shelf for 2 to 8 years' model, yet despite the big changes in rule delivery, it seems to be back to business as usual for GW for product releases.
 

najo

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Yeah, the prices are a bit nuts, and I'm mostly just kind of bored. It's looking like it will be over a year before we see anything interesting and new for the undead in Age of Sigmar. I'm not sure I'll still care when that happens.

They really should have rolled out something for each of the 'big four' categories (order, chaos, destruction, death) more or less immediately, along with a campaign opener that pushed all of them, instead of the rather narrow opening we got.

IMO, they really missed a trick in not following the Privateer model of campaign based expansions that very specifically have something for each of their game's factions to get invested in. One or two new things for everyone for each big new release is an infinitely superior model to GW's typical 'drag out one faction for a couple months where nobody else is getting anything interesting, then put that faction on the shelf for 2 to 8 years' model, yet despite the big changes in rule delivery, it seems to be back to business as usual for GW for product releases.
I agree with this entirely. I guess we are getting a whole faction launched that wasn't there before, but they are starting to bore me too. I want to see more of the other armies and new models for them. They need to pull us into the world further.
 

Zephyr

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You build a new game with new stuff and you keep on building excitement. Pushing the same army will only excite those already loving it. Even if GW no longer believes they are a game company but a miniatures company it is still important. New and old players alike would love to see the direction the new aesthetics will take. I know I do even though I have no interest in AoS, I might still think some of the models are worth buying(yeah I'm one of those).
Truth be told GW has really dropped the ball on marketing the last few years and there will come a time they will no longer sell on name alone.

Much like the fluff they can keep some things in the dark but there is teasing in an enticing way versus keeping a tight lid on everything. The latter is off-putting.
 

Banat

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IMO they should have spent each week on a different alignment; order, chaos, death, destruction and drop a couple of new units (of the same time) for each race within each alignment.

E.g. week 1; 3 new infantry units for each of the three big order races, aelfs, duardin, man
week 2; 3 new infantry for chaos
week 3; 3 new infantry for orruks, gargants, beastmen
week 4; 3 new infantry for undeath

Week 5, 6, 7 and 8 repeat the cycle only with new cavalry based units, etc etc and so on and so forth.
 

Tawg

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Yeah, the prices are a bit nuts, and I'm mostly just kind of bored. It's looking like it will be over a year before we see anything interesting and new for the undead in Age of Sigmar. I'm not sure I'll still care when that happens.

They really should have rolled out something for each of the 'big four' categories (order, chaos, destruction, death) more or less immediately, along with a campaign opener that pushed all of them, instead of the rather narrow opening we got.

IMO, they really missed a trick in not following the Privateer model of campaign based expansions that very specifically have something for each of their game's factions to get invested in. One or two new things for everyone for each big new release is an infinitely superior model to GW's typical 'drag out one faction for a couple months where nobody else is getting anything interesting, then put that faction on the shelf for 2 to 8 years' model, yet despite the big changes in rule delivery, it seems to be back to business as usual for GW for product releases.
Yeah, and they even hinted at cool things happening elsewhere to the whole Sigmar-rebellion-against-Chaos thing, with the Trees vs Nurgle and Skaven X Death. It would certainly be far better to see a handful of parallel releases rather than a single faction seemingly dragging on. I mean, I can appreciate the new weekly release model to previous where they just dropped whole armies out of no where. It makes tons more sense financially because players can invest in smaller purchases over time rather than seeing all the things they want and looking at it as a huge hit to the pocket book. And it's more interesting in general, it's like comic books. I can go to the shop weekly and shoot the shit with the hobby guys, talk about rumors or games, or if you're lucky maybe even play a few. And it becomes more of a community deal, with people being excited and drawn in to a common thing, rather than isolated and only checking on the store once in a while when a huge release hits.

But it certainly is far too slow with this Sigmar release. I mean, I just got back into the games at all recently, so this weekly release schedule is new to me. And compared to the recent 40k releases, that I followed because I was interested in the Ad Mech stuff, it seems absurd. The Ad Mech releases lasted a few weeks for Skitarri and Cult respectively because they each had very focused model ranges to explore, around 3-5 kits each. Which is super tiny, and maybe the Sigmarite stuff will die just as soon, but if they tried to build up the Adeptas Arstartes (Space Marines) from the ground by releasing one kit a week? People would QUICKLY bore of that. It's cool to see new units and things each week, but it's too much to assume spreading it out over much more than a month would keep people watching the shelves for new stuff. Eventually it's just "oh good those guys again but with giant hammers. >1Week later> Oh, and now they have cavalry. >Another Week> Oh, great, a cavalry hero." ad nauseam. At least if they released the new forces in the form of those little flavorful battalion/Formation Warscrolls, where you select a handful of units for a bonus? If they released one of those week with 1-3 new kits on that it'd way quicker/better.

It's more than likely meaningless though. I don't think any of us here are arguing over the speed of the whole deal, and more than likely we're not about to open GW's eyes to their perceived failings. Especially if what they're doing right now is generating money. Even more so if they take any shift in sales between AoS and WHFB and incorrectly identify which variables are the ones drawing in sales, then it could just be a mess. Although that is entirely speculative and could all be wrong. But I doubt GW is going to change their business model soon here.

So we just have to hope they already know players want to see more than just Sigmarines, or else we'll be seeing them for a while still. Or even if they change, another month of a single faction would still be brutal.
 

Banat

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There s this weeks pre orders, the double handers then next week is the flyboyz then its chaos for the next four weeks. of course all of the khorne starter kit stuff has to be released...
 

Malisteen

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Honestly, if you're putting any kind of limit on what people can field, then the only real balance for summoning is to disallow it completely (or count all summoned units towards that limit without recycling, which is tantamount to the same thing). Our units are not enough worse than those of anybody else that we should be able to get them 'for free' in any system that makes people 'pay' for units otherwise. Summoning only even vaguely works in vanilla age of sigmar because every unit is 'for free' anyway, and each unit you summon is a unit you could have just deployed to begin with.

Summoning (sort of) worked in 8e because spells were harder to cast, easier to dispel, more powerful in general (giving up trying to cast purple sun in order to try and cast harbinger was a much closer trade off than giving up arcane bolt), and overall attempts per turn were limited by winds of magic dice and the restrictions on multiple casters knowing the same spell.

In AoS, it's just an arbitrarily large number of free units, and I can't really see any way to balance that.
 

Banat

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Summoning can be combatted by killing off the wizard. Shoot him to death or throw monsters at him.Characters can't hide in units anymore and necromancers only get a 4+ look out sir.
 

Alabaster427

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Summoning can be combatted by killing off the wizard. Shoot him to death or throw monsters at him.Characters can't hide in units anymore and necromancers only get a 4+ look out sir.
Although characters can't JOIN units, they can still be SURROUNDED by them... taking away them snipes...
 

Tawg

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That's a relatively poor argument though @Banat, considering that doesn't work for everyone. Even if they can't be hidden in units, they can be shielded from Melee units by simply waves of stuff between them. And when the only good answer is "KILL IT!" then there isn't much flexibility in that, or tactical use. It's just saying "Wizards force your hand to kill them at all cost" or else they can make a free new army?

Summoning certainly, as @Malisteen said, far outclasses other options by far. Except in rare circumstances when all you need to do to kill an enemy hero/monster is the last 3 or less wounds, and you want to take that potential risk. And even then, if you're in range for the Missile you're probably in range to summon a unit that could just charge them. As long as you have room to place the unit. But if we're going to make board space the only premium that is limiting summoning then we're all doomed anyways.

Again echoing @Malisteen, it doesn't greatly effect the normal game since it's the difference between starting with them deployed and just setting them down later. For comps, it's certainly going to be a hurdle to try and balance summoning and with the simplicity of AoS it's hard to say what you could apply to fix that.

Limiting spell dice isn't really an option any more.
Limiting number of summoned units is, although IMO that makes a big issue with zombies merging units, I guess that's a minor issue if you assume people are summoning better units than zombies. Even still placing the "one unit per wizard" rule only forces the wizard to go big or go home, and there would never be need to summon any unit that is not considered the "Best" for what is to come.

Where as summoning a unit of Skeletons might make an impact on the game, it's far less than a Terrorghiest. And they are not terribly much more difficult than each other given how many bonuses can be claimed with a handful of models on the board.

But things are just going to get muddled the more restrictions that are placed on them. I don't have the highest of hopes for competitive AoS, but that doesn't dismay me simply because I wish to play for fun, and scenario building more so. I wouldn't mind a competitive form of play, as long as it doesn't supplant the alternatives completely. Which is what that Jervis article was about: the imagined need to force "Competitiveness" in a game that will always have flawed balance, and which can be so much more when simply applied in a different style.

Want to limit summoning? Determine the limits per match. Playing a huge game with 4k points equivalent from before? Maybe you don't need to limit summoning. Playing only a handful of units and you happen to have a necromancer? Limit him to 1-2 units, or only zombies or something. Just don't expect people to want to play if you are going to say "The rules say it's ok!" to justify when you do things that aren't going to be enjoyable for both sides.
 

Zephyr

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Speaking of summining. My first AoS test was VC versus TK and it was kind of...weird. TK chariots are nuts as their warscroll gives them a banner that heals them. They have so many wounds it becomes annoying, not even counting the summoning! I had both Vlad, Konrad and Grave Guard stuck against them and with average rolls the two-wheeled horse-drawn horrors stayed put for four rounds. Four! Seriously annoying, much more than summoning but maybe that's because I could pull the same trick.
 

Banat

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Where as summoning a unit of Skeletons might make an impact on the game, it's far less than a Terrorghiest. And they are not terribly much more difficult than each other given how many bonuses can be claimed with a handful of models on the board.
If your playing bigger games then you should have the necessary magical clout to be able to impact enemy summoning.

Both the cart and engine also have ranges on them, trying to drive wedges between them and the wizard adds tactical depth.

And if someone plonks both of them down in a smaller match then you know they're powerplaying and you say no thank you very much.
 

Oppenheimer

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It seems to me that anyone who expects them to roll out more than one faction in a month is being somewhat entitled. It's been only a few weeks that AoS has been out and we've gotten a starter set including two new armies, new terrain in the from of the gates, a novel, a new large book, a new app, and four more models for one of the two starting armies. That's a lot of stuff for one month. I'm happy to get that much attention considering how Warhammer has barely had any other releases this year otherwise.
Oh, and also new rules, for free, for every existing army and unit was also rolled out.
 

Tawg

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It seems to me that anyone who expects them to roll out more than one faction in a month is being somewhat entitled. It's been only a few weeks that AoS has been out and we've gotten a starter set including two new armies, new terrain in the from of the gates, a novel, a new large book, a new app, and four more models for one of the two starting armies. That's a lot of stuff for one month. I'm happy to get that much attention considering how Warhammer has barely had any other releases this year otherwise.
Oh, and also new rules, for free, for every existing army and unit was also rolled out.
Well the new rules for free wasn't an option. Changing the game this dramatically meant they had to either leave existing models behind, at least for a time if they didn't release them all up front, or they had to get the new rules into everyone's hands real fast. And between releasing a new book for each army and asking players to pay for something they were potentially unsure of, and handing out to rules to allow them to at least try and see what is happening, there is really only one choice they could make.

That aside, it isn't that they aren't releasing a lot, I mentioned that between the books and other things besides the models, it is a considerable amount. It's just that everyone is eager to see updates for their armies, to see if they are going to release larger models for everyone or what they'll be, what new units they could possibly be coming up with, things like that. It's exciting, and while the Stormcast releases have been decent, and their kits allow a good number of potential options and are of the quality we expect, everyone still has armies they are more interested in.

I'd be the same if lizardmen come first, we'll all groan until we get undead, unless we also play lizardmen. But you get the point, as much as we may appreciate what they are releasing, we want to see what Santa has for us. And we all want to see what they'll do with old armies comparatively. Because the Stormcast are new, but we can't say that all models will be huge if that just their thing. Ogres were all huge, 40mm bases and all, so it's hard to say. But most people are of the opinion that GW wants to move away from smaller models, and that means many armies may receive units/models that are larger than previous, what could they be? We just want to see something new that isn't.. exclusively new. Granted of course they have to release enough to support the Stormcast as an army with options for people to buy, so it's all understandable. I don't think anyone feel entitled. We just think our suggestions could improve upon their release schedule. It's not entitlement it's hubris.
 

Oppenheimer

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I understand wanting more. I just think that realistically this is the one area GW has not let us down. They're probably putting a lot of their resources into this release and I don't think it's fair to ask then to produce more models this quickly. But I agree that in an ideal world it would be nice.

I'm finding that the updated rules are making me excited about existing models and armies. I have an ogre army but an looking forward to getting an Aracnarok to add to them since it's all destruction now. I bought Valkyia because I want to put her with the new Korne goretide. My husband bought king Lioncor for his Bretts because there's no longer separate profiles for monster and hero. So for me the new rules have made all the old models new and exciting again, which is almost as good as getting new ones for existing factions.
 

Tawg

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I understand wanting more. I just think that realistically this is the one area GW has not let us down. They're probably putting a lot of their resources into this release and I don't think it's fair to ask then to produce more models this quickly. But I agree that in an ideal world it would be nice.

I'm finding that the updated rules are making me excited about existing models and armies. I have an ogre army but an looking forward to getting an Aracnarok to add to them since it's all destruction now. I bought Valkyia because I want to put her with the new Korne goretide. My husband bought king Lioncor for his Bretts because there's no longer separate profiles for monster and hero. So for me the new rules have made all the old models new and exciting again, which is almost as good as getting new ones for existing factions.
Yeah, some of the new rules have the effect of reinvigorating stale models, or bygone ones. I wish I had more people to play with, it'd be nice to get some games in since there is so much to explore all over again.

Although for me, it's more about the models at this point, and they've been putting out decent ones. I also missed End Times, so looking back a little for some of the releases over the past year is all new to me. I was at the FLGS the other day and talking about everything when it hit the guy there at the Blight Kings were basically designed with the AoS "mentality" already, aka larger models and bases, that sort of thing. But it's less people wanting more in the sense of they need to release way more, and just wanting more variety, which could have been a focus to draw more long time players in rather than trying to spark a new love with the Stormcast.
 

Tawg

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On the bright side, the Paladins they are releasing next week are definitely amazing. I certainly like the fact that the box comes with three weapon options, but that they are varied enough rules wise to demand three separate Warscrolls, rather than just 3 weapon options listed on a single scroll. That is certainly a hopeful element, and makes them seem much more exciting.

I also can dig these new "modular" terrain kits they are releasing, next week will see a second kit released that is fully able to be built as a single piece along with the Ophidian Archway. I wonder how many they will end up releasing that are comparable, or if it will simply be a new standard where any of their future "ruins" type terrain will have interchangeable components. Plus, it's not exactly new releases, but there is a new Dryad battle force style box coming, which is cool because, damn are those models amazing. I don't think I know anyone who is not a fan of them, at least by looks. Perhaps theme/rules they wouldn't care. Might have made sense for that "army box" to come with some of the Sylvaneth Woods that go with them, but oh well.
 
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